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Luongo XVI - Licence to Save (Mod Warning in OP)

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06-26-2012, 12:24 PM
  #351
pullyoursocksup
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
Just like Kesler regressed by the start of his rookie season? He wasn't anything special till his 4th year of pro. Gardiner has shown potential and promise that he could be some special why should we trade with him for a 33 yr old goaltender with a ridiculous retirement contract?

rookie season stats

Kesler GP:82 G:10 A:13 P:23
Gardiner GP:75 G:7 A:23 P:30
maybe the worst comparison i've ever seen.

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06-26-2012, 12:24 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Killericon View Post
Goal-deneye?
Goal-denied?

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:25 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
You are doing this on purpose to try and stir something up. Both sides have been guilty of downplaying players on the other to make it look better for their team in the trade. Your bizarre assertion that vancouver is the only one doing it is crazy.
Where did I assert that Vancouver is the only one doing it?

Quote:
Don't pick and choose your arguements.
That's absurd. Anyone can talk about any aspect of this mess that they wish. Everybody else does, so I don't see why I can't.

That said, it wasn't even an argument. It's an honest question. I don't understand why Vancouver would want this player. Since many Toronto fans have indicated they *would* like to have Luongo, I don't see that it's a question applicable to both, anyway.

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06-26-2012, 12:25 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
So your theory is that Gillis never made offers to the Leafs and others prior to and at the draft due to the need first to resign Schneider?
First of all - I think it's been other teams making offers for Luongo, not the other way around.

Second of all - Gillis has set the price too high, but that's a starting point in negotiations. This is one of the reasons a deal hasn't been finalized.

And third - yes, I do believe he feels resigning Schneider to be a bigger priority, as there would be a slim chance he could lose both if he traded Luongo first.

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06-26-2012, 12:27 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Well, I guess the question then becomes why Schneider hasn't signed yet. 7/1 is fast approaching. Yes, I realize that it's unfathomable that an offer sheet will be made, but I'd want to get Schneider wrapped up ASAP so I could move forward with other work that needs to be done. If nothing else, it would be a clear sign to Luongo that he may need to expand his virtual "list" of teams he'd be willing to play for.

I still think if Schneider and his agent are smart, they're not signing until the Luongo deal is done and they know where they stand long term with Vancouver. Just my personal opinion.
I'm sure they're working on a deal right now.

Your arguments could apply to many RFA's. Vancouver hasn't signed any of them as of yet, I'm sure something will be done soon.

Schneider (and Luongo for that matter) has always been a team first kinda guy, so I don't think he's waiting so he can hold the Canucks hostage.

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06-26-2012, 12:30 PM
  #356
Vankiller Whale
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Okay, 3 way proposal:

To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Scrivens, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st

Toronto trades from it's defensive depth to gain the best goalie prospect in the world. Scrivens, made redundant, goes the other way.

Florida is set up for goaltending both now and likely in the future with Scrivens developing under Luongo. They give up Markstrom and one of their good prospects for stability in net for a long time and Jake Gardiner.

Vancouver adds to its depleted prospect pool with Toronto's first and Howden/Petrovic

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06-26-2012, 12:31 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
Yeah, it's not like they had new contracts with the new GM...god, take credit for something your GM did in another city to somehow make your GM look like a genius. I wonder if you think in your mind that some how your team is in better shape then the canucks, no wait I know what you think.
I'm not trying to make Burke and Nonis look like geniuses at all. I'm simply pointing out the architects of the Canucks and why they are a good team to begin with.

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06-26-2012, 12:32 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Killericon View Post
Goal-deneye?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 94eleven View Post
Goal-denied?

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:33 PM
  #359
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I find it extremely hard to assess TML players.

The spotlight is so big and so bright in T.O that players often get overrated......not because t.o fans or media aren't smart hockey fans. but they get overrated because they get so much attention and they get talked about so much.
I remember before during the Sundin years, T.O at the time had two highly touted youngsters named Wellwood and Steen..these two guys were making tons of headlines. T.O fans were bragging about them on here and they got tons of media attention. Hell, i thought both of them were going to be superstars lol.
Neither turned out as good as everyone thought.

So when i see a young stud like Gardiner..i dont know if he's not as good as people think he is, or maybe he's just hyped up so much because he's playing for the leafs. Maybe the opposite is true though..maybe people under-rate him..thinking "oh he's a leaf, he's not as good as people think he is" ..when in fact he CAN turn out to be a real no.1 star Dman. I dunno, its tough. Look at Kulemin...who is this guy? how good is he? I dont know hahaha
Other teams players are much easier to judge imo.

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06-26-2012, 12:34 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay, 3 way proposal:

To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Scrivens, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st

Toronto trades from it's defensive depth to gain the best goalie prospect in the world. Scrivens, made redundant, goes the other way.

Florida is set up for goaltending both now and likely in the future with Scrivens developing under Luongo. They give up Markstrom and one of their good prospects for stability in net for a long time and Jake Gardiner.

Vancouver adds to its depleted prospect pool with Toronto's first and Howden/Petrovic
Not degrading Markstrom AT ALL...but how does this deal solve our current goaltending issues?

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:35 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
You are doing this on purpose to try and stir something up. Both sides have been guilty of downplaying players on the other to make it look better for their team in the trade. Your bizarre assertion that vancouver is the only one doing it is crazy.

Look at how loungo has become an average goalie in this thread by all these leafs fans who don't want him at all(but seem to keep pushing for him).

Don't pick and choose your arguements.
Couldn't agree more. The guy is a complete troll. his team isn't even involved. He seems obsessed with the Canucks.
I'm not sure if he is just really stupid, or just disingenuous. How can anyone not see that is exactly what Toronto fan's are doing, constantly putting Luongo and his contract down while insisting they are getting him.

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:35 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay, 3 way proposal:

To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Scrivens, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st

Toronto trades from it's defensive depth to gain the best goalie prospect in the world. Scrivens, made redundant, goes the other way.

Florida is set up for goaltending both now and likely in the future with Scrivens developing under Luongo. They give up Markstrom and one of their good prospects for stability in net for a long time and Jake Gardiner.

Vancouver adds to its depleted prospect pool with Toronto's first and Howden/Petrovic
Hey thats a not bad deal...ive seen worse.
I dont think that FLA would want Scrivens. I think they'd rather have Eddie Lack...

*edited*
To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Lack, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st, Scrivens

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #363
Liferleafer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DopitaToDemitra View Post
I find it extremely hard to assess TML players.

The spotlight is so big and so bright in T.O that players often get overrated......not because t.o fans or media aren't smart hockey fans. but they get overrated because they get so much attention and they get talked about so much.
I remember before during the Sundin years, T.O at the time had two highly touted youngsters named Wellwood and Steen..these two guys were making tons of headlines. T.O fans were bragging about them on here and they got tons of media attention. Hell, i thought both of them were going to be superstars lol.
Neither turned out as good as everyone thought.

So when i see a young stud like Gardiner..i dont know if he's not as good as people think he is, or maybe he's just hyped up so much because he's playing for the leafs. Maybe the opposite is true though..maybe people under-rate him..thinking "oh he's a leaf, he's not as good as people think he is" ..when in fact he CAN turn out to be a real no.1 star Dman. I dunno, its tough. Look at Kulemin...who is this guy? how good is he? I dont know hahaha
Other teams players are much easier to judge imo.
I guess the bolded is key. Judge him by what you see. Players who haven't yet played in the NHL tend to get overhyped. Gardiner played 75 games last season and played them well, that is the difference.

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Old
06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Isn't this what it's all about, though? Every player could regress after a good year, especially rookies. But teams shouldn't just go out and trade these players because they *might* regress. If they feel they're going to progress, they hang onto them to see how they turn out.
But what's puzzling to me is as much as Vancouver fans are stating Gardiner isn't as good as so-and-so and won't live up to the hype and isn't nearly as good as Toronto fans think and it's absurd to consider him untouchable and insane to think he's going to develop into a stud... why do they want him included in a trade for Luongo? If I was that certain the guy is going to be average to below average (which is the impression I get from these threads), I just don't understand why he's mentioned so often as an essential part of any package deal.
They should if it improves their club as trading for Luongo most certainly will.
I don't believe any Vancouver fan said Gardiner doesn't have potential.Is that potential worth more than a top 10 goalie to a team whose goaltending has been identified as an area in need of upgrading? IMO no but toronto fans don't seem to mind missing the playoffs every year to hang onto & increase their holdings of players with potential.

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06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay, 3 way proposal:

To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Scrivens, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st

Toronto trades from it's defensive depth to gain the best goalie prospect in the world. Scrivens, made redundant, goes the other way.

Florida is set up for goaltending both now and likely in the future with Scrivens developing under Luongo. They give up Markstrom and one of their good prospects for stability in net for a long time and Jake Gardiner.

Vancouver adds to its depleted prospect pool with Toronto's first and Howden/Petrovic
The Leafs don't need a goalie prospect, if they did they might as well stick with Scrivens. Markstrom might have the potential but he's unproven much as Scrivens or Reimer. Toronto needs a experienced goaltender to stopgap for the next season or two

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06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #366
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did someone really compare a forwards rookie year where he was on the 4th line averaging 10mins a game with no pp time to a defenceman where he averaged 20+ and pp time. :

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06-26-2012, 12:37 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
I'm sure they're working on a deal right now.

Your arguments could apply to many RFA's. Vancouver hasn't signed any of them as of yet, I'm sure something will be done soon.

Schneider (and Luongo for that matter) has always been a team first kinda guy, so I don't think he's waiting so he can hold the Canucks hostage.
I don't think it's a "hold the Canucks hostage" situation. I think he wants to be a true #1 somewhere (said so himself) and would be much more inclined to sign a long term deal with Vancouver if he knew there wasn't another elite, #1 goalie in the line-up with whom he would have to probably split more time than a true #1 would have to do. He has to look out for himself, and it's his agent's job to ensure that he does. Not saying he wants to screw Vancouver over, or that he's going to hold out for a king's ransom. Just saying he may want to sign a 1-year deal if he thinks he's not going to be the unquestioned #1 in Vancouver.

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06-26-2012, 12:38 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
I'm not trying to make Burke and Nonis look like geniuses at all. I'm simply pointing out the architects of the Canucks and why they are a good team to begin with.
Mike Milbury drafted loads of great players. That doesn't make him a great GM.

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06-26-2012, 12:38 PM
  #369
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by DopitaToDemitra View Post
Hey thats a not bad deal...ive seen worse.
I dont think that FLA would want Scrivens. I think they'd rather have Eddie Lack...

*edited*
To Toronto:Markstrom, Fla 1st
To Florida:Luongo, Lack, Gardiner, Raymond
To Vancouver: Howden/Petrovic, Tor 1st, Scrivens
Well, we also want Lack...but if absolutely neccessary then I might be okay with it.

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06-26-2012, 12:39 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by dbaz View Post
did someone really compare a forwards rookie year where he was on the 4th line averaging 10mins a game with no pp time to a defenceman where he averaged 20+ and pp time. :
While i agree it's a goofy comparison, Gardiner earned that playing time.

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06-26-2012, 12:39 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Well, I guess the question then becomes why Schneider hasn't signed yet. 7/1 is fast approaching. Yes, I realize that it's unfathomable that an offer sheet will be made, but I'd want to get Schneider wrapped up ASAP so I could move forward with other work that needs to be done. If nothing else, it would be a clear sign to Luongo that he may need to expand his virtual "list" of teams he'd be willing to play for.

I still think if Schneider and his agent are smart, they're not signing until the Luongo deal is done and they know where they stand long term with Vancouver. Just my personal opinion.
Most likely Gillis has a deal made in principle. He has not signed it yet to not to take any leverage away in the Luongo trade front.

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06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #372
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For a bit of perspective, let's look at the notable unsigned RFA's


Boston - Rask
Buffalo - Kaleta, Ennis
Colorado - Mueller, O'Rielly, Downie, McGinn, Johnson
Dallas - Benn
Detroit - Abdelkader, Quincey
Edmonton - Gagner, Barker
Florida - Versteeg, Wolski, Kulikov
Nashville - Weber
NYR - Del Zotta
Ottawa - Foligno
Philly - Voracek
Pitts - Niskanen
San Jose - Galiardi
St. Louis - Oshie, Perron
Toronto - Kulemin
Washington - Carlson, Green
Winnipeg - Kane

To my knowledge the only signifcant RFA to have signed is Karlsson. So people need to stop with this weird timeline they've constructed about how Vancouver should've signed Schneider by now, or traded Luongo by now, etc etc. There are still months to do this.

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06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #373
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Couldn't agree more. The guy is a complete troll. his team isn't even involved. He seems obsessed with the Canucks.
I'm not sure if he is just really stupid, or just disingenuous. How can anyone not see that is exactly what Toronto fan's are doing, constantly putting Luongo and his contract down while insisting they are getting him.
Thanks for the flames and name-calling. Awesome stuff.

I see exactly what Toronto is doing. I just wasn't talking about that in my post. When I want to talk about what Toronto is doing, I will. The question I asked just popped into my head at that particular moment. It's not a big deal, it's not a great mystery of life, it's not trolling. It was just a question.

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06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #374
Nash
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did someone really compare a forwards rookie year where he was on the 4th line averaging 10mins a game with no pp time to a defenceman where he averaged 20+ and pp time. :
Not to mention huge difference in ages and positional depth in each organization.

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06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #375
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I guess the bolded is key. Judge him by what you see. Players who haven't yet played in the NHL tend to get overhyped. Gardiner played 75 games last season and played them well, that is the difference.
Yeah he looked good. But so have other players in the past. I think that if a TML player has a few flashes of brilliance, people will look at it and maybe ignore other aspects of his game. There have been other TML players in the past that people went crazy over after a season of promise only to have them not turn out into the stars they were hyped up to be.
But like i said, who knows right..maybe he's better than people think. All I'm saying is that its so hard to get a read on how good TML players are when the spotlight is that big and that bright.

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