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Shanahan and the Hall of Fame

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Old
06-26-2012, 06:09 PM
  #26
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Here is an interesting one when we asked about first ballot guys for next year.

Forsberg played all of two games in 10-11, more like a send off party in Colorado. Now maybe that makes him wait another year. They also could consider him eligible next year don't know how closely they stick to that rule.

You would have to think Fedorov and Lidstrom will go in together in three years as first ballot guys with them both retiring this year. Especially if Selanne (still think Fedorov should go in over him as first ballot guy, but Selanne is popular and as we saw Sundin today that is important) returns, either guy handily beats Alfie in my opinion. Brodeur would be interesting and likely bump Fedorov for a year much to my dismay. Don't know if they stagger the first ballot stuff, but all four of those guys would seem shoe-ins for that honor. I think they would have to go with four first ballot guys in that scenario.

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06-26-2012, 06:13 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Less of a problem with Bure. People forget just how dominant the Russian Rocket was. Only 40 we missed a lot of good years because of injury.

Think Shanahan should have gotten in over Oates this year.

My biggest gripe is actually probably Sundin. If you are only going to do 2 first ballot guys, I think Shanny and his three cups easily beat Sundin, but hey the event and hall are in Toronto I guess.
Yep if not for the fact Sundin was a Maple Leaf, Shanny obviously mops the floor with him. Sucks he didn't get a first ballot but he'll be in there soon enough.

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06-26-2012, 06:57 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Agreed.

IMO, Shanny belongs in over Bure, too, and I am a big Bure fan.
Shanahan definitely belongs in over Oates, while we're at it.

3 Cups. 650+ goals. 1300+ points. Could fight anyone. Olympic Gold. The guy generally credited as being the final piece of the puzzle that KICKSTARTED the Red Wings era winning cups.

Sakic is the only guy who belongs above Shanny in this year's class. And even that is debatable.
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. It's a total joke that Shanny wouldn't be a first-ballot guy.

Oates was not a great player. He was a very good player who played a really long time.

Bure was great for a short period of time, and that's cool. But I was looking at his stats and it dawned on me that we need to play the "Players A and B Game" again...

Player A
779 games, 406g, 379a, 785p, 136ppg, 1 SCF appearance, no Cups

Player B
702 games, 437g, 342a, 779p, 121ppg 1 SCF appearance, no Cups

One of these players is a Hall of Famer. One guy is still playing. If his career ended tomorrow, should both guys be in the HOF? Identities to be revealed after discussion...

Meanwhile, Shanny gets snubbed. Ridiculous.

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06-26-2012, 07:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
I thought he could've been in over Oates... Guess we're all different here
There's an argument to be made he should have beat all three. Oates should have been his only close competition. Bure was dominant but due to injuries had a much abbreviated career. I most definitely think that he should be inducted, but not over Shannahan. And Sundin? Wow. What did his hardware collection look like again?

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06-26-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sureWhyNot View Post
There's an argument to be made he should have beat all three. Oates should have been his only close competition. Bure was dominant but due to injuries had a much abbreviated career. I most definitely think that he should be inducted, but not over Shannahan. And Sundin? Wow. What did his hardware collection look like again?
Looked pretty good for Sweden if I remember right, but as I have said before I agree with Shanny over him. Just guessing the big Swedish contingent around here won't like that question.

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06-26-2012, 07:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. It's a total joke that Shanny wouldn't be a first-ballot guy.

Oates was not a great player. He was a very good player who played a really long time.

Bure was great for a short period of time, and that's cool. But I was looking at his stats and it dawned on me that we need to play the "Players A and B Game" again...

Player A
779 games, 406g, 379a, 785p, 136ppg, 1 SCF appearance, no Cups

Player B
702 games, 437g, 342a, 779p, 121ppg 1 SCF appearance, no Cups

One of these players is a Hall of Famer. One guy is still playing. If his career ended tomorrow, should both guys be in the HOF? Identities to be revealed after discussion...

Meanwhile, Shanny gets snubbed. Ridiculous.
Thinking that player is Kovy.

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06-26-2012, 07:12 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Thinking that player is Kovy.
That's not the issue at the moment.

The issue is whether the other player is a HOFer with those stats.

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06-26-2012, 07:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
That's not the issue at the moment.

The issue is whether the other player is a HOFer with those stats.
Helps Bure that while he was lighting the world on fire he was doing it in a Canadian market for a portion of his career. He also had some hardware to go with those statistics if I remember right.

I would give that player a serious look depending on how dominant I felt they were, I am firmly in the Lindros should be in camp so I am probably the wrong person to ask.

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06-26-2012, 07:29 PM
  #34
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hhof is a joke. bure before shanny? LOL.

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06-26-2012, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Maybe he can Shanaban the HHOF voters. I'm not all that surprised, though, since this is a pretty good class.

Now, if they pass over Nick on the first ballot...
If only this happened BEFORE the Awards show

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06-26-2012, 07:34 PM
  #36
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Should be pointed out that one guy is also a -110 and less than a point a game player in the playoffs with half the games.

The other was plus 30 even on bad teams and was over a point a game in the playoffs. Also the most outstanding forward in the first Olympics where pros played.

It is Kovy was actually guessing but looked it up based on that and the stats align. Sorry for ruining it, probably doesn't help get the debate started.

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06-26-2012, 07:44 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post

The issue is whether the other player is a HOFer with those stats.
no, neither should be there imo.

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06-26-2012, 07:47 PM
  #38
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Based on those stats alone, Player B is more deserving of the HOF. But I'm not sure either should be there.

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06-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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Since I ruined Sarcastro's one

Player A: 702 games, 437g, 342a, 779p, 121ppg 1 SCF appearance, no Cups

Player B: GP:726 G:395 A299 P:694 2SCF appearances no cups

sorry no ppg.

I will tell you who in a second also... discuss.

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06-26-2012, 07:58 PM
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still no.

longevity means more to me than most i suppose. unless you are #66 or #4.

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06-26-2012, 08:06 PM
  #41
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still no.

longevity means more to me than most i suppose. unless you are #66 or #4.
Well that will really upset you because the player listed along with Bure this time is Cam Neely. So both guys are in.

Neely does have 1000 + PIM to go with that stat line, but still interesting to just look at his numbers.

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06-26-2012, 08:10 PM
  #42
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hah. well played sir.

to be completely honest, i was not a supporter of bambam being inducted. it is what it is i guess. i am not one of the board voters for a reason.

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06-26-2012, 08:25 PM
  #43
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This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. It's a total joke that Shanny wouldn't be a first-ballot guy.

Oates was not a great player. He was a very good player who played a really long time.
that description of oates is more suitable for shanahan. shanahan played longer than oates but has less points. his hart voting record is much weaker than oates. for most of shanahan's prime, he was not considered better than paul kariya or john leclair. LW is also the weakest position.


if oates was not a great player, how was shanahan great?

oates was the 2nd highest scoring player (after gretzky) from '90-'99 (shanahan was 18th) and 2nd highest scorer (after jagr) from '91-'00 (shanahan was 19th).


oates was one of the best playmakers in history. 12 times in top 10 in assists, 2 seasons of 90a, top 10 in points 7 times (two times for shanahan). 3 time leader in assists (many other great players led NHL in assists 3 times, but only gretzky and orr did so more than 3 times.)

142p playing with joe juneau and dmitri kvartalnov in '93 (outscoring prime yzerman). easily better than any season shanahan had.

brett hull (3 70g+ seasons, 86g in '91) and cam neely (50g in 44 games) had monster seasons playing with oates. joe juneau scored 102p as a rookie with oates. juneau's career high separate from oates was 64p.

oates also has more points in both the regular season and playoffs than shanahan despite playing less games.


shanahan had better intangibles, as he was a legitimate power forward and oates clashed with his teams and moved from team to team, and was overrated defensively, but oates was still a better player.

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06-26-2012, 08:32 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
that description of oates is more suitable for shanahan. shanahan played longer than oates but has less points. his hart voting record is much weaker than oates. for most of shanahan's prime, he was not considered better than paul kariya or john leclair. LW is also the weakest position.


if oates was not a great player, how was shanahan great?

oates was the 2nd highest scoring player (after gretzky) from '90-'99 (shanahan was 18th) and 2nd highest scorer (after jagr) from '91-'00 (shanahan was 19th).


oates was one of the best playmakers in history. 12 times in top 10 in assists, 2 seasons of 90a, top 10 in points 7 times (two times for shanahan). 3 time leader in assists (many other great players led NHL in assists 3 times, but only gretzky and orr did so more than 3 times.)

142p playing with joe juneau and dmitri kvartalnov in '93 (outscoring prime yzerman). easily better than any season shanahan had.

brett hull (3 70g+ seasons, 86g in '91) and cam neely (50g in 44 games) had monster seasons playing with oates. joe juneau scored 102p as a rookie with oates. juneau's career high separate from oates was 64p.

oates also has more points in both the regular season and playoffs than shanahan despite playing less games.


shanahan had better intangibles, as he was a legitimate power forward and oates clashed with his teams and moved from team to team, and was overrated defensively, but oates was still a better player.
But yet never won anything tangible. Didn't represent Canada often because nobody felt that way about him. It is a nice defense but the holes in it are easy to pick through. Earned a whopping one NHL second All-Star team. Oates was a consistent number producer, not scary and imposing. Maybe he needed better talent around him, but his resume because of those intangibles difference is what leaves him significantly behind Shanahan.

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06-26-2012, 08:50 PM
  #45
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I view it as a real slap in the face considering those who did get in this year and those who got in when Luke Robitaille, closest to Shanny by numbers, got in in 2009.

Luke Robitaille entered the Hall with Brian Leetch, Steve Yzerman, and Brett Hull. Shanahan is denied first ballot entry in favor of Joe Sakic, Mats Sundin, Adam Oates and Pavel Bure? Please. There’s something wrong with that picture. Luke Robitaille won one Stanley Cup in his career. Shanahan won three. Their individual numbers are so close as to be negligible. Let’s look at the NHL numbers.

———— Regular Season Games Playoff Games

GP G A Pts PIMS GP G A Pts PIMS
Shanahan 1524 656 698 1354 2489 184 60 74 134 280
Robitaille 1431 668 726 1394 1177 159 58 69 127 174

Sudin 1346 564 785 1349 1093 91 38 44 82 74
Sakic 1378 625 1016 1641 614 172 84 104 188 78
Oates 1337 341 1079 1420 415 163 42 114 156 66
Bure 702 437 342 779 484 64 35 35 70 74

Seriously. Oates and Bure before Shanny is ridiculous on paper. And no amount of intangibles these two players may or may not have brought can compare with Shanahan’s intangibles as a player.

Shanahan was the quintessential power forward of his or any other generation. He was fearless and could throw with the best of them. Shanahan was Ken Hollands missing link that put Detroit over the hump to win two Stanley Cups in 97 and 98. He’s one of very few players to have won a Stanley Cup, an Olympic Gold Medal and a World Championship. He was a eight time NHL All Star. He had 19 consecutive 20 goal seasons in a 20 year career.

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06-26-2012, 09:14 PM
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What a joke. Shanahan had way better careers than Sundin, Bure or Oates. He was one of the best power forwards ever and has a case for top 3. What a snuff.

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06-26-2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Here is an interesting one when we asked about first ballot guys for next year.

Forsberg played all of two games in 10-11, more like a send off party in Colorado. Now maybe that makes him wait another year. They also could consider him eligible next year don't know how closely they stick to that rule.

You would have to think Fedorov and Lidstrom will go in together in three years as first ballot guys with them both retiring this year. Especially if Selanne (still think Fedorov should go in over him as first ballot guy, but Selanne is popular and as we saw Sundin today that is important) returns, either guy handily beats Alfie in my opinion. Brodeur would be interesting and likely bump Fedorov for a year much to my dismay. Don't know if they stagger the first ballot stuff, but all four of those guys would seem shoe-ins for that honor. I think they would have to go with four first ballot guys in that scenario.
Could Lidstrom, Fedorov, Shanahan and Forsberg all make it in the same year!? What a trolling that would be to Peter and the Avalanche organization.

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06-26-2012, 09:38 PM
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that description of oates is more suitable for shanahan. shanahan played longer than oates but has less points. his hart voting record is much weaker than oates. for most of shanahan's prime, he was not considered better than paul kariya or john leclair. LW is also the weakest position.

if oates was not a great player, how was shanahan great?

oates was the 2nd highest scoring player (after gretzky) from '90-'99 (shanahan was 18th) and 2nd highest scorer (after jagr) from '91-'00 (shanahan was 19th).

oates was one of the best playmakers in history. 12 times in top 10 in assists, 2 seasons of 90a, top 10 in points 7 times (two times for shanahan). 3 time leader in assists (many other great players led NHL in assists 3 times, but only gretzky and orr did so more than 3 times.)

142p playing with joe juneau and dmitri kvartalnov in '93 (outscoring prime yzerman). easily better than any season shanahan had.

brett hull (3 70g+ seasons, 86g in '91) and cam neely (50g in 44 games) had monster seasons playing with oates. joe juneau scored 102p as a rookie with oates. juneau's career high separate from oates was 64p.

oates also has more points in both the regular season and playoffs than shanahan despite playing less games.

shanahan had better intangibles, as he was a legitimate power forward and oates clashed with his teams and moved from team to team, and was overrated defensively, but oates was still a better player.
Oates played more of his career in the inflated scoring of the 80s and early 90s, for one. He was present for Brett Hull's biggest goal seasons. Now, of course Oates' talents were useful to Brett, but you have to look at those seasons and realize that his assist totals were inflated playing with one of the greatest goal scorers in history at his absolute peak. Brett Hull could have scored 60 goals with Mark Mowers and Boyd Devereaux as his linemates those years - there was no stopping him.

Goals count for something, IMO, and Oates had two seasons with more than 25. Two. Shanny had 17 straight 25+ goal seasons (I count the 1995 season for Shanny because he had 20 in 45 games and would have bagged 5 more in his sleep).

Shanny scored 50 goals with the Blues twice with nobody but Craig Janney to pass him the puck. He also scored 44 with the Whalers with absolutely nobody to pass him the puck.

Dude had almost as many PPGs (95) before coming to Detroit as Oates had (103) his whole career. 8 All-Star selections to Oates' 5.

He intimidated the opposition with his skill and with his physical presence as well - Oates was buttery-soft and this is reflected in his lack of postseason success. 3 Cups and a Gold to Oates' absolutely nothing. Not a coincidence. Oates racked up a lot of assists. While losing.

I mean, I know this isn't the end-all to the argument, but look at the ratings on hockeyreference for god's sake. Shanny is ranked as the 20th best skater of all time, while Oates is listed as the 81st. That is not a small gap. Some guys that are listed ahead of him include Alexander Mogilny, Pierre Turgeon, Doug Gilmour, and Theo Fleury. When you're considered to be equal or less than Pierre Turgeon, you don't deserve to be in the HOF - not ahead of a guy like Shanny, anyway.

Dude was a very good player. Maybe deserved to make the HOF. Maybe. But not ahead of Shanny. There's just no comparison between the two - Oates was not on Shanny's level as a player. Shanny obviously pissed some people off this past season because there's no other explanation for him missing on the first ballot.

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06-26-2012, 09:39 PM
  #49
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Could Lidstrom, Fedorov, Shanahan and Forsberg all make it in the same year!? What a trolling that would be to Peter and the Avalanche organization.
There would have to be several more years of screwing Shanny over if he's going to wait for Nick to be eligible...

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06-26-2012, 10:29 PM
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But yet never won anything tangible. Didn't represent Canada often because nobody felt that way about him. It is a nice defense but the holes in it are easy to pick through. Earned a whopping one NHL second All-Star team. Oates was a consistent number producer, not scary and imposing. Maybe he needed better talent around him, but his resume because of those intangibles difference is what leaves him significantly behind Shanahan.
yzerman, who was obviously better than oates, was not picked for team canada in '87 or '91 CC, but players like brent sutter (both '87 and '91), teenage eric lindros, and shayne corson were picked (and lemieux missed '91 CC). both of these are the same situation. C is the deepest position, and yzerman and oates had to compete against gretzky, lemieux, messier, lindros, sakic, forsberg, fyodorov, gilmour, lafontaine, modano, sundin, etc, plus each other. team canada has also usually picked a checking C. draper played for team canada several times.


i am not sure why 1 2nd AS is bad. yzerman has a whopping 1 1st AS selection (and i think modano was more deserving). and if lemieux, forsberg and lindros had been healthy, yzerman would have 0 (as would modano). that does not mean yzerman was not a great great player. if lemieux had been healthy in '91, oates would have 0 AS selections. does that change his level of play?

peter stastny has 0 AS selections, and never won anything tangible. does that mean john tonelli (twice 2nd all star LW, important part of 4 consecutive cups, '84 CC MVP, fantastic intangibles, arguably better than HHOF teammate clark gillies) was better?

oates' 2nd AS (which was not his huge 142p season) was won over prime yzerman, plus messier and sakic. both those are better than any season shanahan had.


shanahan played the weakest position, and competed against much weaker players for AS spots. when shanahan was voted 1st LW in '94, adam graves was 2nd LW. in 2000, he beat paul kariya for 1st LW, but i don't think he should have.


which of oates' teams do you think should have won the cup?

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