I think the fact that Sundin is the leading scorer of the franchise speaks to how badly the Leafs were handled in the 70's and 80's, and not to how great Sundin was. When 6 (almost 7) of your top 10 scorers all time were part of the 60's Leafs, (compared to the scorers of the Canadians, Bruins, Hawks and Wings), there's an issue.
He was given some pretty good players from the late 90's-2004. So he doesn't exactly get a pass from that.
The only really skilled guy that comes to mind who was on his wing was Mogilny and he wasn't around for long. When you look at the list of players over his time here who was on his wing, it's pretty easy to see why he didn't put up more points and didn't have more seasons like his one in QC. I mean, Jonas Hoglund was his winger for a while and there were plenty of one's like him who Sundin played with. Now, the Leafs did have some really good teams pre-lockout, teams that probably should have made it to the finals but still, IIRC he still didn't have great wingers. I'd have to double check to be honest. I always remember him being the lone ranger on his line.
I'm not all that impressed with the linked article even if I somewhat agree with the overall argument. His points are all over the place; on one hand he's arguing in favor of guys like Ciccarelli (bad induction) and Andreychuk (would be an even worse one) on the basis of having scored 600 goals, and pointing out that guys like Neely and Lafontaine didn't reach certain arbitrary statistical barriers. But then the main thesis of the article is that Mats Sundin doesn't belong, and one of the strongest aspects of his case is impressive career statistics. It seems like he started with an idea ("Bure should be in before Sundin") and then just filled in the article with some rambling material.
I'm not all that impressed with the linked article even if I somewhat agree with the overall argument. His points are all over the place; on one hand he's arguing in favor of guys like Ciccarelli (bad induction) and Andreychuk (would be an even worse one) on the basis of having scored 600 goals, and pointing out that guys like Neely and Lafontaine didn't reach certain arbitrary statistical barriers. But then the main thesis of the article is that Mats Sundin doesn't belong, and one of the strongest aspects of his case is impressive career statistics. It seems like he started with an idea ("Bure should be in before Sundin") and then just filled in the article with some rambling material.
Welcome to Sports Journalism in the year 2012. Random thoughts to illustrate a poorly-conceived idea...
"Alfredsson should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer."
Consider the source.
Sundin will get in...eventually. He has the numbers to get in, he has the respect of the media and I'd think that even opposing fans can agree that he was the Leafs engine when he was there.
He probably doesn't get in ahead of Sakic though...
Edit: Did Mendes really argue against Pat LaFontaine?
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Didn't 16 have a 1.44 PPG average when he retired, 7 40-goal seasons and the heart and soul of the Sabres franchise?
It's a joke Oates isn't in. He needs to get in this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edog37
Sundin didn't win any Cups either....
Oates never won a thing in his life. If the criteria is points, which is all Oates has, then Sundin, Andreychuk, Bure and a host of others should be auto-includes.
If you need a Cup victory to get in AND a vital part of that Cup run then say bye to Alfredsson (he was vital but didn't win), Sundin (never reached finals), Bure (vital part but didn't win), Oates (finals but no win). etc. etc.
It's a Hall of Fame, if the first criteria is a player's recognition factor then Sundin, ALfie, Bure, etc. are all locks. If you include point production and contribution to team history/significance, same players are all in.
The cat is out of the bag and has been for a while with this Hall of Fame. If you get enough points, are consistent and aren't a complte ********* off the ice you'll get in. If you ARE a ********* and have enough points you'll get in...eventually.
The HHOF requirements are laughably substandard. If they tightened them up in the least (Must be a Cup winner and integral part of Cup run OR a multiple MVP OR an MVP and tops of your position in points, etc. etc) we wouldn't be having this conversation. But then...I'm of the thought Hall of Fame should be for the absolute elite at a position, and if you're not in the NHL you should display dominance over an extremetly long span (Makarov for example).
The only time he cracked 100 points was when his 114 points didn't even register for top 10 in the league.
Outside of a few blips early in the 90's, he was a perenial 70 point player, no first team all-stars, no individual awards, no playoff success, a gold medal on a great Sweden team, and a billion World Championship medals (which in my opinion equates to nothing when considering the talent playing in the playoffs, or staying home). I can't think of many HOF'ers who's resumes are as thin.
He was a consistent, good player. He was always good for 30 goals, maybe even 40, but if he didn't play for the Leafs, I don't think he'd get a sniff at the hall.
Which players who aren't in the HHoF have comparable careers to Sundin's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig
The only really skilled guy that comes to mind who was on his wing was Mogilny and he wasn't around for long. When you look at the list of players over his time here who was on his wing, it's pretty easy to see why he didn't put up more points and didn't have more seasons like his one in QC. I mean, Jonas Hoglund was his winger for a while and there were plenty of one's like him who Sundin played with. Now, the Leafs did have some really good teams pre-lockout, teams that probably should have made it to the finals but still, IIRC he still didn't have great wingers. I'd have to double check to be honest. I always remember him being the lone ranger on his line.
He had many seasons like his season in Quebec. Scoring declined in the NHL.
These are Sundin's best seasons (# is overall points rank):
4, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 25
Guess which one was that 114 point season in Quebec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocolateLeclaire
Welcome to Sports Journalism in the year 2012. Random thoughts to illustrate a poorly-conceived idea...
One guy was around during the early 90s when the goals per game values were almost 2 more goals per game higher (or almost 40%) than in the dead-puck era, when Alfredsson showed up.
It'll be interesting to see how the voters try to accommodate the reduction in scoring that happened for the prime of many a player's career.
I'm not sure why you guys are hating on Mendes. His case was for Bure to get in before Sundin (I'm guessing because he assumed Shanny was getting in). Mendes was living in Vancouver in the early 90's, hence the Bure love. But, they both got in...so no big deal and Mendes is still happy and respects Sundin. It has nothing do to with Ottawa vs Toronto. It's all Mendes loving Bure growing up, seeing the Sundin hype for the HOF in recent weeks, and stating his case.
Sundin absolutely destroys Bure in career stats and international accomplishments. 15 seasons with 70+ points for Sundin, 5 for Bure. Sundin was a leader, a captain of the most popular franchise in the league for ages, Bure was a lockerroom cancer. Sundin has the most career goals/assists/points by any Swedish player ever, and hold franchise records for the Leafs for the most career goals and points. Really all Bure has over Sundin is the two Richards.
Edit: both in, as it turns out. Sakic is a no brainer, Sundin too. Interesting that Oates and Bure made it in over Shanny, but they were all fairly close candidates, I'm guessing the fact that Oates and Bure had to wait already tipped the scales.
I bet big head Mendes thinks Alfie should be in the hall of fame first shot. Mendes has such a hate on for everything Leafs its actually kind of funny.
I bet big head Mendes thinks Alfie should be in the hall of fame first shot. Mendes has such a hate on for everything Leafs its actually kind of funny.
Why not?
Alife,though he never won the Cup, at least won a conference championship and made it to the Finals and has some NHL hardware for himself and his team.
Sundin-no NHL hardware at all in his long career either for himself or for his team
despite playing when the Leafs were one of the biggest spending teams in those pre cap days.
Sundin was a very good, constent player who had a long career.Thats it.
I would have though both Alfie and Sundin would get in but not the first time round.
Alife,though he never won the Cup, at least won a conference championship and made it to the Finals and has some NHL hardware for himself and his team.
Sundin-no NHL hardware at all in his long career either for himself or for his team
despite playing when the Leafs were one of the biggest spending teams in those pre cap days.
Sundin was a very good, constent player who had a long career.Thats it.
I would have though both Alfie and Sundin would get in but not the first time round.
When it comes to NHL Awards it should be mentioned that Sundin won the Mark Messier Leadership Award.
As for Alfredsson so what he won the Calder Memorial Trophy and the King Clancy Memorial Award. Plus just because the Senators made the Stanley Cup Finals in 2007, those are not reasons enough to get him into the Hall of Fame.
Sundin has much better career numbers that Alfredsson will never come close to.
When it comes to NHL Awards it should be mentioned that Sundin won the Mark Messier Leadership Award.
As for Alfredsson so what he won the Calder Memorial Trophy and the King Clancy Memorial Award. Plus just because the Senators made the Stanley Cup Finals in 2007, those are not reasons enough to get him into the Hall of Fame.
Sundin has much better career numbers that Alfredsson will never come close to.
The Mark Messier Award is a joke.
Sundin has played longer than Alfie-came into the NHL about 5 years earlier, yet his career numbers are not much better.
Also Alfie played for many years on a team that was near bankrupt and on a shoestring budget while Sundin played for one of the big hitters in the NHL. When there was no cap, the Leafs had nearly double the payroll of the Sens for most of those years.
And yet Alfies team won a Conference Championship, a Presidents trophy and 4 divisional titles. The Sundin led team depite having about double the payroll won well,1 division title.
