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JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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Old
06-26-2012, 02:21 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Schenn, on the other hand, was the worst defenseman on the Leafs.
Hah, sometimes I like pretending Mike Komisarek doesn't play for us, too.

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06-26-2012, 02:23 PM
  #652
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Offseason plan: Get fatass in shape.
Regular season plan: Continue to destroy Toronto.

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06-26-2012, 02:27 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Offseason plan: Get fatass in shape.
Regular season plan: Continue to destroy Toronto.
Yeah the leafs training staff really screwed up making Schenn bulk up so much at the cost of his mobility. Hopefully he can get back to his comfortable weight

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06-26-2012, 02:32 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Offseason plan: Get fatass in shape.
Regular season plan: Continue to destroy Toronto.
Just because Schenn added mass doesn't mean he's fat or out of shape. Does he need to get lighter? Yep, no doubt about that. Under no circumstances should the Toronto training staff have suggested that Schenn needs to be 230 pounds to be effective. It's no worse than Jim McCrossin telling Bryzgalov that he needed to be 225 pounds in order to survive playing nets in the East. We all saw what happened when Bryzgalov played heavier than usual. Same can be said of Schenn.

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06-26-2012, 02:34 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Just because Schenn added mass doesn't mean he's fat or out of shape. Does he need to get lighter? Yep, no doubt about that. Under no circumstances should the Toronto training staff have suggested that Schenn needs to be 230 pounds to be effective. It's no worse than Jim McCrossin telling Bryzgalov that he needed to be 225 pounds in order to survive playing nets in the East. We all saw what happened when Bryzgalov played heavier than usual. Same can be said of Schenn.
It was a joke, but yeah, Schenn needs to drop some pounds regardless. He needs to skate in our system, or he will be eaten alive.

Bag skate him all summer.

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06-26-2012, 03:03 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It was a joke, but yeah, Schenn needs to drop some pounds regardless. He needs to skate in our system, or he will be eaten alive.

Bag skate him all summer.
from talking to his brother he'll know what to expect

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06-26-2012, 03:25 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by 04' hockey View Post
from talking to his brother he'll know what to expect
Both brothers will working out under the direction of Gary Roberts again. I'm not worried that much about it. More speed, less bulk.

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06-26-2012, 06:31 PM
  #658
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No, he did that on his own, working out with Shea Weber, per my post above.
And there's nothing at all wrong with it. Gaining 20-25 lbs of muscle is perfectly fine, its the adaption phase that's the killer. He will be fine now... if he stays this weight. Gaining 20-30+lbs of muscle will REALLY throw off all of your internal mechanics.

Perfect example is Tiger Woods. He started an Olympic lifting program, doing cleans and all sorts of high end strength lifts and total threw his swing out of whack for about 1-2 years because for, lack of better term, he didn't know how to use his muscle. His swing looked totally different, the club went places it should never go, all because he had never "felt" it before because with his new muscle everything had a new feel to it.

Another example is Mike Tyson. Before he went to jail he never once lifted weights. He got all of his power doing natural lifts, pull ups, chin ups, push ups, resistance. etc. Guess what happened to him the moment he fought after putting on all that ****ing muscle when he was in jail/his first year out of it because he didn't have Cus to train him... He lost all of his mechanics. Throwing a punch felt totally different I'm sure and he lost his ability to gauge everything.

Now I don't know much about Schenn to be critical, but if everyone is seriously complaining about his weight, and it's NOT weight from being out of shape, then theres nothing to complain about. Was it stupid he did it? When you put on that much muscle mass when you play a game that requires perfect form in legs, core and upper. Yeah. Probably, because much like other athletes that have done it, it totally throws of you mechanics in every way shape and form. From what I've read it looked like he didnt even know how to skate much less shot a puck this last season. The difference is he's young enough to adapt and learn to use his new size.

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06-26-2012, 06:55 PM
  #659
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I'm not a huge fan of JVR, but I'm even less of a fan of Schenn.

His extreme lack of footspeed is just a career killer, and it really has nothing to do with his playing weight or fitness. His first step is a problem both defending the rush and in zone play, and on the PK as well. He was an inconsistent 3rd pairing defenseman last year....and what's worse, he was a defensive dman that couldn't be trusted on the PK, making it hard to find much use for him.

He's got some 2nd pair 20mpg potential, but that'll take him perfecting his positioning and hockey sense, and that's not all that easy to do. That footspeed, and horrendous first step, is gonna be a liability his entire career, no matter how much weight he loses.

I don't think JVR is the superstar in waiting most of you guys thought he was, but I think you guys will be dissappointed in Schenn regardless. I look at this as a trade of a 2nd line winger with a bit of 1st line upside for a 3rd pair defenseman with a bit of 2nd pair upside.

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06-26-2012, 08:17 PM
  #660
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Not sure how anybody can claim JVR isnt injury prone. When I argue that JVR's value is still high, the only true detractor is his injury history. The hip issue and concussion are legitimate causes for concern.


It's also a little funny how the people claiming that management was "impatient" with JVR are being equally, if not more, impatient with Schenn.


It would be one thing if we traded JVR for an older winger or defender with less upside, then you would have a point. But we traded a high potential winger for a high potential defender. There's no issue of "impatience" here-- it's just a situation of fit. Schenn fits an organizational need, and JVR is a luxury piece. If you claim that Holmgren was being impatient with JVR, then that means you're being impatient with Schenn. Let the kid play before claiming we gave up on one piece too soon...
The big difference is JVR shown improvement each year here. He hasn't had his big breakout season, but at least he was trending in the right direction. There was reason to be optimistic.

Schenn has gone in the opposite direction. His best season was his rookie year. He has continued to regress resulting in the worst season of his career last year. He's young, but there aren't a lot of positive signs. He's the greater risk.

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06-26-2012, 08:26 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Hah, sometimes I like pretending Mike Komisarek doesn't play for us, too.
So does he.

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06-26-2012, 08:46 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The big difference is JVR shown improvement each year here. He hasn't had his big breakout season, but at least he was trending in the right direction. There was reason to be optimistic.

Schenn has gone in the opposite direction. His best season was his rookie year. He has continued to regress resulting in the worst season of his career last year. He's young, but there aren't a lot of positive signs. He's the greater risk.
That's not true. Schenn's best year was 2010-11.

It's easy to come to false conclusions when you choose to revise history.


The reality is that both are players who have had ups and downs. JVR has not been steadily progressing upwards since he broke into the league like you are saying. In fact, at some points last year, he was an inferior player to the one we saw in his rookie/sophomore seasons.


Saying that Schenn's progression is steadily downward, while JVR's is steadily upward is just false. Neither of those statements are true. It's more complicated than that, and I think you know that.

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06-26-2012, 09:01 PM
  #663
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So does he.
Well that's kinda self-loathing of him. Who else is gonna write his $4.5 million paycheck?

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06-26-2012, 09:16 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
That's not true. Schenn's best year was 2010-11.

It's easy to come to false conclusions when you choose to revise history.


The reality is that both are players who have had ups and downs. JVR has not been steadily progressing upwards since he broke into the league like you are saying. In fact, at some points last year, he was an inferior player to the one we saw in his rookie/sophomore seasons.


Saying that Schenn's progression is steadily downward, while JVR's is steadily upward is just false. Neither of those statements are true. It's more complicated than that, and I think you know that.

You're right it hasn't been all a downhill trajectory, but Schenn was was facing top pairing competition his rookie season. In fact, he was facing the toughest competition of all Leafs defenders. His TOI slightly increased last year, but his competition was 2nd pairing.

JVR's shot rate improved last year which means his offense will continue to improve. He was slowed down by injuries, but still managed to show signs of improvement.

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06-26-2012, 09:19 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Well that's kinda self-loathing of him. Who else is gonna write his $4.5 million paycheck?

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06-26-2012, 09:19 PM
  #666
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Hah, sometimes I like pretending Mike Komisarek doesn't play for us, too.
According to the advanced stats, he wasn't the worst. At least not last season.

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06-26-2012, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It was a joke, but yeah, Schenn needs to drop some pounds regardless. He needs to skate in our system, or he will be eaten alive.

Bag skate him all summer.
"Hey Luke, welcome to Philadelphia, you're not good enough."

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06-26-2012, 09:58 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
According to the advanced stats, he wasn't the worst. At least not last season.
I think its one of those cases where looking at advanced stats doesnt give the whole picture. Gotta remember looking at the relative corsi doesnt give you everything. Example is how looking at the Flyers, you would think Grossmann was this teams worse defender. Or looking at the Flames and saying TJ Brodie was their top defender. Or the Caps and saying Alzner had a horrible season (and by most accounts said he had a great one). Or how Justin Faulk was the 4th best defender on the Hurricanes, which he easily was the best. Or nashville where Josi is the "worse defender" and he had a tremendous season.

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06-26-2012, 10:12 PM
  #669
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I think its one of those cases where looking at advanced stats doesnt give the whole picture. Gotta remember looking at the relative corsi doesnt give you everything. Example is how looking at the Flyers, you would think Grossmann was this teams worse defender. Or looking at the Flames and saying TJ Brodie was their top defender. Or the Caps and saying Alzner had a horrible season (and by most accounts said he had a great one). Or how Justin Faulk was the 4th best defender on the Hurricanes, which he easily was the best. Or nashville where Josi is the "worse defender" and he had a tremendous season.
One of the best all-time quotes, attributed to Benjamin Disraeli, is: "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Numbers without context can paint any picture one wants.

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06-26-2012, 10:15 PM
  #670
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"Hey Luke, welcome to Philadelphia, you're not good enough."
"Do you want to end up like Gary Busey?"

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06-26-2012, 10:24 PM
  #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
That's not true. Schenn's best year was 2010-11.

It's easy to come to false conclusions when you choose to revise history.


The reality is that both are players who have had ups and downs. JVR has not been steadily progressing upwards since he broke into the league like you are saying. In fact, at some points last year, he was an inferior player to the one we saw in his rookie/sophomore seasons.


Saying that Schenn's progression is steadily downward, while JVR's is steadily upward is just false. Neither of those statements are true. It's more complicated than that, and I think you know that.
He was an injury on skates last year. The fact that he wasn't inferior the entire time only helps her point.

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06-26-2012, 10:27 PM
  #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
"Hey Luke, welcome to Philadelphia, you're not good enough."
Why lie to the man?

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06-26-2012, 10:36 PM
  #673
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He was an injury on skates last year. The fact that he wasn't inferior the entire time only helps her point.
I dont see how the bolded helps your point at all.

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06-26-2012, 10:48 PM
  #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I dont see how the bolded helps your point at all.
You slow or something? The fact that his performance last season wasn't inferior to seasons prior though out, speaks to his progress given his numerous injuries. Savvy?

JVR had been steadily progressing as a player while showing flashes of dominant play, then he had an unfortunate year where he had a couple of fluke injuries....a broken foot off a blocked shot, a concussion. The stomach and groin issues are really the two that would suggest any sort of fragility. And I wouldn't be surprised if one happened as a result of playing through the other.

Honestly, I think he's gonna be a 60-70 point forward as soon as next season. We traded that for a 4/5 defenseman. Go us...

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06-26-2012, 11:03 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
You slow or something? The fact that his performance last season wasn't inferior to seasons prior though out, speaks to his progress given his numerous injuries. Savvy?

JVR had been steadily progressing as a player while showing flashes of dominant play, then he had an unfortunate year where he had a couple of fluke injuries....a broken foot off a blocked shot, a concussion. The stomach and groin issues are really the two that would suggest any sort of fragility. And I wouldn't be surprised if one happened as a result of playing through the other.
Well "the point she was making" is that we were impatient with JVR.

If you are using injuries to prove that we were impatient, I could just as easily say, we sold him at the right time given the questions surrounding his injuries...



Quote:
Honestly, I think he's gonna be a 60-70 point forward as soon as next season. We traded that for a 4/5 defenseman. Go us...
And this is the point I'm making. How you can claim we were impatient with JVR, yet go on to be impatient with Schenn in the next paragraph is beyond me...

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