Alife,though he never won the Cup, at least won a conference championship and made it to the Finals and has some NHL hardware for himself and his team.
Sundin-no NHL hardware at all in his long career either for himself or for his team
despite playing when the Leafs were one of the biggest spending teams in those pre cap days.
Sundin was a very good, constent player who had a long career.Thats it.
I would have though both Alfie and Sundin would get in but not the first time round.
Sundin was on a completely different level from Alfredsson, while playing with considerably worse players. Really, aside from a couple years with Mogilny on his wing, who did Sundin have? Nobody.
Sundin was on a completely different level from Alfredsson, while playing with considerably worse players. Really, aside from a couple years with Mogilny on his wing, who did Sundin have? Nobody.
Yeah, Arvedson, Smolinski and Todd White were powerhouses.
And yet Alfies team won a Conference Championship, a Presidents trophy and 4 divisional titles. The Sundin led team depite having about double the payroll won well,1 division title.
The NHL doesn't factor in team awards like you mentioned when choosing if a player makes the Hall of Fame.
I wouldn't call players such as Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Darcy Tucker & Owen Nolan scrubs. At some point during their time with the Leafs they also played on a line with Sundin. It's just that people want to remember him playing more with others like Jonas Hogland and Mikael Renberg who weren't as popular with Leafs fans.
I wouldn't call players such as Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Darcy Tucker & Owen Nolan scrubs. At some point during their time with the Leafs they also played on a line with Sundin. It's just that people want to remember him playing more with others like Jonas Hogland and Mikael Renberg who weren't as popular with Leafs fans.
Umm...you are right. Guys like Mogilny, Roberts, and Nolan weren't scrubs and were good players...The operative word being 'were'.
Roberts was like a decade past his prime.
Same with Nolan.
Tucker, although being a good player, average about 35 pts throughout his career except for two blips where he hit around 60. Offensive juggernaut? Err...no.
Mogilny was the only one on your list that wasn't a scrub. Played very well...but other than one year where he got 79 pts, his other 2 yrs as a Leaf was injury plagued and he was also close to a decade past his prime.
Surprised no one has mentioned this already so I'm going to mention it here now before someone brings this up. The only other great winger I can think of that played with Sundin was Doug Gilmour. But again, Gilmour while playing with Sundin was in his decline. His best years as a Leaf was before Sundin. And he only played 3 years with Sundin. Though they were marred with injuries etc.
So no. I can't think of a single winger who played at an elite level, in his prime, to have played with Sundin the whole of Sundin's career as a Leaf.
So yes, those names may not be scrubs but from an offensive impact point of view, other than a busted up old Gilmour and Mogilny, everyone else, although may not be scrubs, had an offensive impact pretty much like a scrub.
Congratulations, Mats! I grew up watching you play and you are my favorite athlete. A wicked backhand, Selke-level two-way play, physicality, puck protection, talent, leader by example, able to handle the pressure of being the captain of the Leafs (the first European captain), unbelievable consistency, able to succeed with often poor linemates, lots of NHL and international accolades and accomplishments, and incredible clutchness.
You're the greatest Leafs player of all-time. You're an inspiration to a generation of Leafs fans and Swedish people. You're an inspiration to me.
Thank you for the memories.
My three favorite Sundin memories:
1. ECF against Carolina in Game 6, game tying goal.
2. ECQF against Ottawa in Game 1, OT game winning goal.
3. 500th career goal (shorthanded hat-trick in OT against Calgary).
Honourable mentions:
- ECQF against Philadelphia in 1999, game winning goal in last couple of minutes.
- Shootout goal against the Leafs while playing for Vancouver (although this was bittersweet).
Sundin was so loyal to the Leafs; management asking him to waive his NTC was disgusting. Did Detroit do that to Yzerman? Colorado to Sakic? Just pathetic. I apologize, the vast majority of Leafs Nation loves you for your loyalty.
I always think of how crazy it would have been if Sundin were young enough to be Kessel's centerman. Just imagine.
shanahan was a very good player but if he was your teams best player you weren't winning any cups
So first off, not disagreeing in the least... but it is kinda funny. I have some news for you, if Mats Sundin was your team's best player, you are also not winning any cups. This, we know.
So first off, not disagreeing in the least... but it is kinda funny. I have some news for you, if Mats Sundin was your team's best player, you are also not winning any cups. This, we know.
Further illustrating the point that hockey teams are composed of 23players, that win as a collective. Individual players (not even HHOF players) do not win Cups, teams do.
Umm...you are right. Guys like Mogilny, Roberts, and Nolan weren't scrubs and were good players...The operative word being 'were'.
Roberts was like a decade past his prime.
Same with Nolan.
Tucker, although being a good player, average about 35 pts throughout his career except for two blips where he hit around 60. Offensive juggernaut? Err...no.
Mogilny was the only one on your list that wasn't a scrub. Played very well...but other than one year where he got 79 pts, his other 2 yrs as a Leaf was injury plagued and he was also close to a decade past his prime.
Surprised no one has mentioned this already so I'm going to mention it here now before someone brings this up. The only other great winger I can think of that played with Sundin was Doug Gilmour. But again, Gilmour while playing with Sundin was in his decline. His best years as a Leaf was before Sundin. And he only played 3 years with Sundin. Though they were marred with injuries etc.
So no. I can't think of a single winger who played at an elite level, in his prime, to have played with Sundin the whole of Sundin's career as a Leaf.
So yes, those names may not be scrubs but from an offensive impact point of view, other than a busted up old Gilmour and Mogilny, everyone else, although may not be scrubs, had an offensive impact pretty much like a scrub.
Here are Sundin's scrub teammates compared to say, Alfredsson's juggernaut teammates (60+ points):
Err...I thought I was clear on this but looks like I wasn't. Probably the reason I am not a lawyer or scientist.
I thought I said when he was a Leaf, to illustrate how pathetically the organization surrounded him with well...not much.
So that leaves out the first 4 years in the NHL as a Nord.
Which leaves I think 13/25?
And leaves out the last year he played in the NHL with the half year he played as a Canuck.
Which leaves 11/25?
And I'm fairly sure I said those he played with as his wingers...though considering how errr..inept they were as defensive D's, they probably may have done rather well as forwards...anyhow that leaves a further 9/25?
So that leaves
Mogilny 79
Thomas 73
Gilmour 72
Thomas 63
Tucker 61
Murphy 61
Gilmour 60
Allison 60
(sorry, didn't really include Andreychuk)
So I stand corrected, I totally forgot about Thomas and Allison, thank you for that.
Though I did ask for elite wingers that were in their primes that played with Sundin (for the record that leaves the offensive juggernaut that is the shoe in future HHOF, ultra mega elite, 35pt average Tucker...ooo, ahhh...err...).
For the record, if he stayed a Nord he probably would have had a glorious career. Unfortunately he played most of his career as a Leaf and was supported by either old, past their prime, often injured, past elite players (Mogilny, Thomas etc.) or some great offensive D's (Kaberle and McCabe). Oh, and also some great goaltenders (though some would also say past their prime, old etc.). These veteran forwards are usually brought in to help the up and coming young players, bring experience and provide secondary or tertiary offence...not to 'be' the offence...except for Toronto...which is some of the reasons why Toronto hasn't won a cup in a fairly long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Here are Sundin's scrub teammates compared to say, Alfredsson's juggernaut teammates (60+ points):
He hasn't done enough in the NHL to warrant a first ballot inclusion to the HHOF - no matter what you think you know.
OK - now I just wonder if you've suffered a recent head wound...
Are you kidding me? A panel of multiple intelligent hockey minds inducted/voted him into the Hall of Fame. So "no matter what you think you know" hes obviously worthy of a first ballot induction. I only say this because he was just inducted on the first ballot yesterday.
This is a prime example of trolling and uneducated hockey fans. He earned his spot yet some fans still think they know better then people actually associated to the sport and league... HAHAHA
Well, assume there will be four inductees, one builder. That leaves three players. Sakic and Shanahan pretty much have those locked, so it's between Bure, Lindros and Sundin.
Sundin has the longest of the Careers, so he probably gets it.
Are you kidding me? A panel of multiple intelligent hockey minds inducted/voted him into the Hall of Fame. So "no matter what you think you know" hes obviously worthy of a first ballot induction. I only say this because he was just inducted on the first ballot yesterday.
This is a prime example of trolling and uneducated hockey fans. He earned his spot yet some fans still think they know better then people actually associated to the sport and league... HAHAHA
Are you kidding me? A panel of multiple intelligent hockey minds inducted/voted him into the Hall of Fame. So "no matter what you think you know" hes obviously worthy of a first ballot induction. I only say this because he was just inducted on the first ballot yesterday.
This is a prime example of trolling and uneducated hockey fans. He earned his spot yet some fans still think they know better then people actually associated to the sport and league... HAHAHA
Indeed. Arguing as if it didn't happen and cannot happen is just amusing.
Are you kidding me? A panel of multiple intelligent hockey minds inducted/voted him into the Hall of Fame. So "no matter what you think you know" hes obviously worthy of a first ballot induction. I only say this because he was just inducted on the first ballot yesterday.
This is a prime example of trolling and uneducated hockey fans. He earned his spot yet some fans still think they know better then people actually associated to the sport and league... HAHAHA
They can't be that intelligent if they keep refusing to put Pat Burns into the Hall. I could care less about Sundin going in, but to perpetually pass up Pat Burns in the 'Builder' category makes the committee look like idiots.
They can't be that intelligent if they keep refusing to put Pat Burns into the Hall. I could care less about Sundin going in, but to perpetually pass up Pat Burns in the 'Builder' category makes the committee look like idiots.
Are you kidding me? A panel of multiple intelligent hockey minds inducted/voted him into the Hall of Fame. So "no matter what you think you know" hes obviously worthy of a first ballot induction. I only say this because he was just inducted on the first ballot yesterday.
This is a prime example of trolling and uneducated hockey fans. He earned his spot yet some fans still think they know better then people actually associated to the sport and league... HAHAHA
I guess I'm over in the corner with these other trolls and uneducated hockey fans
Quote:
Kevin Allen, USA Today: “Don't have any issue with today's HHOF choices. But Shanahan should have been automatic.''
Matthew Barnaby, former player and TV analyst: “I am blown away that Sundin made it and No Shanahan. Wow!''
Rich Chere, Newark Star-Ledger: “Mats Sundin in the Hall of Fame before three-time Stanley Cup champion Brendan Shanahan? Really?''
Nick Cotsonika, Yahoo! Sports: “Don't understand how Sundin is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and Shanahan is not. … Shanahan will have his day. It just should have been today.''
Darren Dreger, TSN: “I do my best to respect all nominees and the process, however, no Shanahan and no Pat Burns makes NO sense. Hall of Fame debate will rage on.''
Ray Ferraro, TSN: “For all asking--and there is a lot-- I would've picked shanahan before Sundin this year.''
Stan Fischler, hockey writer: “Brendan Shanahan belongs in Hall of Fame ahead of #Mats Sundin. Shanny won a Cup; Sundin won nothing but Toronto writers. Voters blunder.''
Elliotte Friedman, CBC: “Surprised Shanahan didn't get in. Very deserving.''
Joe Haggerty, CSN New England: “Can't wait to hear Will Arnett doling out punishment as Brendan Shanahan to the Hockey HOF for snubbing Shanny today.''
Jim Matheson, Edmonton Journal: “Sorry but Brendan Shanahan would have been a better first-ballot HHOF guy than Mats Sundin. More pts and 3 Cups, plus fearsome fighter.''
Bob McKenzie, TSN: “Personally, I think it's ludicrous that Brendan Shanahan wasn't a first-ballot HHOFer, and that Fred Shero and Pat Burns are still not there.''
Pierre LeBrun, ESPN: “Thrilled for Bure and Oates. Their HHOF call was long overdue. Stunned, however, Shanahan wasn't first ballot.''
Adam Proteau, formerly of The Hockey News: “If I were in charge of the Hockey Hall of Fame inductions today, Sakic, Shanahan, Fred Shero, Pat Burns and Geraldine Heaney would be in.''
Dan Rosen, NHL.com: “Like many others, I, too, am surprised that Shanahan did not get the call today.''
