HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-26-2012, 11:13 PM
  #676
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,217
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Well "the point she was making" is that we were impatient with JVR.

If you are using injuries to prove that we were impatient, I could just as easily say, we sold him at the right time given the questions surrounding his injuries...



And this is the point I'm making. How you can claim we were impatient with JVR, yet go on to be impatient with Schenn in the next paragraph is beyond me...
Because, as she (Libertine) spelled out for you a number of posts ago, one of them was trending upward before having a season derailed by injuries, and one of them has been trending down for a while now.

We absolutely did NOT sell at the right time. What are you smoking guy? They sold low on JVR. They drafted him, waited on him, signed him, and now someone else gets to enjoy his best years. And what we got in return for that is a player that doesn't have an equal ceiling and looks to be something of a project at best.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-26-2012, 11:17 PM
  #677
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,901
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I think its one of those cases where looking at advanced stats doesnt give the whole picture. Gotta remember looking at the relative corsi doesnt give you everything. Example is how looking at the Flyers, you would think Grossmann was this teams worse defender. Or looking at the Flames and saying TJ Brodie was their top defender. Or the Caps and saying Alzner had a horrible season (and by most accounts said he had a great one). Or how Justin Faulk was the 4th best defender on the Hurricanes, which he easily was the best. Or nashville where Josi is the "worse defender" and he had a tremendous season.
Advanced stats can give you a decent picture if you put them into proper context which you don't seem to be doing. You need to actually see how the players are used for these stats to have any meaning. Brodie has the best Corsi on the Flames, but if you look at how he was used you can see he had it the easiest in both competition and zone starts. No one would claim he is the Flames #1 defenseman because they could see he was doing well in a sheltered role.

To go back to Schenn and Komisarek.

Schenn was 4th in quality of competition, had the 3rd easiest zone starts, was at the bottom in TOI and had the worst corsi.

Komisarek was 3rd in quality of competition, had the toughest zone starts, was 5th in TOI and finished ahead of Schenn in Corsi.

Neither were good defenders, but Komi had it tougher and was somewhat better.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-26-2012, 11:24 PM
  #678
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
You slow or something? The fact that his performance last season wasn't inferior to seasons prior though out, speaks to his progress given his numerous injuries. Savvy?

JVR had been steadily progressing as a player while showing flashes of dominant play, then he had an unfortunate year where he had a couple of fluke injuries....a broken foot off a blocked shot, a concussion. The stomach and groin issues are really the two that would suggest any sort of fragility. And I wouldn't be surprised if one happened as a result of playing through the other.

Honestly, I think he's gonna be a 60-70 point forward as soon as next season. We traded that for a 4/5 defenseman. Go us...
I'm far from a believer in JVR and admittedly not much of a fan, but those who refuse to acknowledge the cumulative effect last season's myriad injuries likely had on him are just blind haters with an agenda. It's obvious a lot of people within the organization soured on JVR, and I'm sure there were those who felt the injuries weren't enough of an excuse for his play (the post-season surgery-or-no-surgery oddness likely didn't help matters). I think it's a load of crap. I wanted to see what a hopefully healthy JVR could do on Giroux's wing and was more than willing to give him another year to put it all together. Selling low always irks me, and this instance wreaked of panic and impatience.

It's funny. When JVR inexplicably and idiotically took that selfish penalty in the third period of Game 6 -- which led to Kovalchuk's back-breaking goal -- by dragging down Elias in a meek attempt to feign he was being interfered with, I told my friend, "**** JVR, I'm done with him. What the hell was that?" Turns out that's the last time I'll be seeing him in a Flyers jersey. I'm still skeptical JVR has the personality/makeup to fully harness his talents, but 23 is too early to give up on a player with his potential. The real problem here is the Flyers stupidly decided to give JVR a contract extension based on an 11-game playoff run, as that looming cap hit put the team in a tough spot and certainly was a major contributing factor to the trade.

I'm rationalizing the trade by talking myself into believing having his brother on the team will accelerate Brayden Schenn's development -- and, hey, maybe it'll be just what Luke needs to turn his career around.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-26-2012, 11:32 PM
  #679
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,217
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I'm far from a believer in JVR and admittedly not much of a fan, but those who refuse to acknowledge the cumulative effect last season's myriad injuries likely had on him are just blind haters with an agenda. It's obvious a lot of people within the organization soured on JVR, and I'm sure there were those who felt the injuries weren't enough of an excuse for his play (the post-season surgery-or-no-surgery oddness likely didn't help matters). I think it's a load of crap. I wanted to see what a hopefully healthy JVR could do on Giroux's wing and was more than willing to give him another year to put it all together. Selling low always irks me, and this instance wreaked of panic and impatience.

It's funny. When JVR inexplicably and idiotically took that selfish penalty in the third period of Game 6 -- which led to Kovalchuk's back-breaking goal -- by dragging down Elias in a meek attempt to feign he was being interfered with, I told my friend, "**** JVR, I'm done with him. What the hell was that?" Turns out that's the last I'll be seeing him in a Flyers jersey. I'm still skeptical JVR has the personality/makeup to fully harness his talents, but 23 is too early to give up on a player with his potential. The real problem here is the Flyers stupidly decided to give JVR a contract extension based on an 11-game playoff run, as that looming cap hit put the team in a tough spot and certainly was a major contributing factor to the trade.

I'm rationalizing the trade be talking myself into believing having his brother on the team will accelerate Brayden Schenn's development -- and, hey, maybe it'll be just what Luke needs to turn his career around.
We only made it to game five .

Yeah, I guess if JVR struggles in Toronto and Schenn really takes off here and makes strides, we could end up winning this trade (to state the eobvious), but I don't see that happening.

I've had those two injuries in concert before (torn cartilage/labrum in the hip and an abdominal strain). Getting out of bed was uncomfortable. Athletic performance of any sort was almost unthinkable. You're constantly favoring one side since it hurts to use your full range of motion and strength in one leg, which in turn makes you recruit your core in a lot of extremely strenuous and unusual ways. It's tough. I don't know how injured he was, but those two in concert can be a real show stopper in my admittedly limited experience.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 07:13 AM
  #680
thelos
Bunk
 
thelos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,577
vCash: 500
Any NHL fan who thinks Schenn is worse than Komisarek is off the wall. Yes, Schenn had a bad year last year, move on

thelos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 11:39 AM
  #681
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 5,930
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Because, as she (Libertine) spelled out for you a number of posts ago, one of them was trending upward before having a season derailed by injuries, and one of them has been trending down for a while now.
As Libertine already admitted, this is false.

Quote:
We absolutely did NOT sell at the right time. What are you smoking guy? They sold low on JVR. They drafted him, waited on him, signed him, and now someone else gets to enjoy his best years.
You could say the exact same thing about Schenn.

You are only proving my point further. You cant accuse the Flyers of being impatient with JVR, but go on and be impatient with Schenn in the very next sentence.

Quote:
And what we got in return for that is a player that doesn't have an equal ceiling and looks to be something of a project at best.
Who are you to declare any of this as if it's a fact? By all accounts, Schenn's ceiling is that of a top pair shut down defender. Whether he ever reaches it is up in the air, but dont ignore reality.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #682
2minutes4slashing
Registered User
 
2minutes4slashing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: niota, tennessee
Country: United States
Posts: 193
vCash: 500
Luke was brought to the Flyers for the mere reason that his brother plays there as well. I'm not impressed with either one of those boys to be honest. This off season is going to be nothing special I'm afraid.

2minutes4slashing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 11:55 AM
  #683
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Luke was brought to the Flyers for the mere reason that his brother plays there as well. I'm not impressed with either one of those boys to be honest. This off season is going to be nothing special I'm afraid.
Your not impressed with Brayden schenn?

Giroux 4 MVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:04 PM
  #684
2minutes4slashing
Registered User
 
2minutes4slashing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: niota, tennessee
Country: United States
Posts: 193
vCash: 500
Nope. he's too small and gets pushed off the puck too easily...I never accepted that trade last year with LA anyways ...

2minutes4slashing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #685
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 14,818
vCash: 500
Well i disagree with that... Down the stetch and for most of te playoffs he was one of ou best players... As a 20 yr old.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:10 PM
  #686
BernieParent
HFB Partner
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,422
vCash: 500
While JvR and L Schenn (as I posted previously) are interesting in their similarity of much-hyped prospects who have so far failed to hit their full potential, there are two important differences in how they have arrived at their current status:
  • JvR benefitted from the Flyers' roster depth and patience in not being rushed to the NHL. Schenn was cast as a phenom and thrust into that role too early, where he has largely and predictably fallen from grace. I would argue that Schenn has to unlearn some of his habits to thrive, while JvR needs to become more consistent in what he does well.
  • JvR's struggles are predominantly because of injuries. Schenn has, apart from a lower-body injury in 2008-09, been healthy and has missed games due to being a healthy scratch.

To say that the players are equivalent in their not reaching full potential, therefore, isn't showing the whole picture. On these two point, I believe that the odds are much more in JvR's favour that he comes closer to reaching his potential than Schenn.

That, however, is also a factor of environment. I don't know if I can objectively assess Toronto's forward development; my bias is that they aren't so hot with their young'uns, but I'm sure that's tainted by my dislike of the team.

Schenn could do well with a heavy dose of playing with Timonen on a second (or even third) pairing, and letting Timonen do the vast majority of the puck handling. Plus, I know I'm not alone in hoping for a stronger emphasis on team defense, and forward responsibility in own-zone coverage.

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:17 PM
  #687
3Fs
Registered User
 
3Fs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Western Pa.
Country: United States
Posts: 487
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Luke was brought to the Flyers for the mere reason that his brother plays there as well. I'm not impressed with either one of those boys to be honest. This off season is going to be nothing special I'm afraid.

Is this for real?

3Fs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #688
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Nope. he's too small and gets pushed off the puck too easily...I never accepted that trade last year with LA anyways ...
Your bias is showing. I'm not sure I've ever seen a player pin Crosby against the boards and knock him off the puck the way Brayden did on at least two separate occasions. That alone impressed the hell out of me and showed me what kind of strength the kid has. Couple that with his performance in March and through the playoffs and I became a believer very quickly. Too small? He is 6-1 and 190 pounds, and I don't remember him getting pushed off the puck so much to the point that I would characterize it as "too easily." He's a smooth skater with underrated puck skills and a better shot than I anticipated, plus that physical, gritty element to his game. I really think Brayden's going to blossom this upcoming season (health permitting).

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #689
Alchemy
Philadelphia Flyers
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 12,331
vCash: 500
Schenn is built like a tank. But he gets "pushed off" the puck too easily.

Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 01:38 PM
  #690
dookie88
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Nope. he's too small and gets pushed off the puck too easily...I never accepted that trade last year with LA anyways ...

dookie88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 02:03 PM
  #691
sg12lw
Registered User
 
sg12lw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 809
vCash: 500




EDIT: can't embed youtube vids right now for some reason


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 06-27-2012 at 02:05 PM. Reason: fixing embeds
sg12lw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 02:06 PM
  #692
SilkyMitts
Registered User
 
SilkyMitts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
perfect response to an idiotic statement

SilkyMitts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 02:28 PM
  #693
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 11,676
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Lol. If you're not a fan of Brayden Schenn that's fine (though it doesn't make much sense), but be a little more realistic in your criticisms. He was hitting anything and playing very strong with the puck throughout the playoffs and in the regular season, while he didn't seem to be as physical, he certainly was not being pushed off the puck "too easily" as you put it. The kid can play. He may never be an offensive dynamo like Giroux, but knock his size and strength is just silly.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 07:36 PM
  #694
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,217
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
As Libertine already admitted, this is false.



You could say the exact same thing about Schenn.

You are only proving my point further. You cant accuse the Flyers of being impatient with JVR, but go on and be impatient with Schenn in the very next sentence.



Who are you to declare any of this as if it's a fact? By all accounts, Schenn's ceiling is that of a top pair shut down defender. Whether he ever reaches it is up in the air, but dont ignore reality.
I didn't declare anything as fact. I am however equally entitled and qualified to voice my opinion/disagreement as you. Its a message board.

The reason I can treat the two players with different degress of patience is because they merit different degrees of patience with what they've shown. I'm allowed to engage my brain and form an opinion. And there is by no means a consensus opinion regarding schenn's upside.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 08:08 PM
  #695
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1992-93
Posts: 3,747
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Nope. he's too small and gets pushed off the puck too easily...I never accepted that trade last year with LA anyways ...
Holy smokes. Did the tape from your Mike Richards poster leave a residue on your bedroom wall when he was traded? I've heard some crazy statements but this one takes the cake.

Boxscore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 09:18 PM
  #696
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 5,930
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I didn't declare anything as fact. I am however equally entitled and qualified to voice my opinion/disagreement as you. Its a message board.

The reason I can treat the two players with different degress of patience is because they merit different degrees of patience with what they've shown. I'm allowed to engage my brain and form an opinion. And there is by no means a consensus opinion regarding schenn's upside.
So basically you're allowed to be impatient with Schenn because......?

Both Schenn and JVR were sold low. That makes it even.

You cant be patient with one, but not the other.

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 09:21 PM
  #697
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2minutes4slashing View Post
Nope. he's too small and gets pushed off the puck too easily...I never accepted that trade last year with LA anyways ...
So you are giving up on a 20 year old?. He is what 6'1" around 185lbs at 20!! The kid has tree trunks for legs and once he gets some upper body strength he will be really tough to play against. But after reading your post I understand why you do not care for him and Simmonds. I hope JVR does well up north because the media up there makes ours here look like choirboys. I remember a skinny 20 year old who was a sickly looking kid who tried hard and got banged around his 1st year. But you know what he never gave up and busted his ass day in and day out. He turned out to be a pretty good player for us. Oh by the way his name was Bobby Clarke So do not give up so quick.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 09:27 PM
  #698
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,001
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
So basically you're allowed to be impatient with Schenn because......?

Both Schenn and JVR were sold low. That makes it even.

You cant be patient with one, but not the other.
To be fair, many people were starting to lose patience with JVR long before he was traded.

I will give Schenn a fair chance to prove himself.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 09:34 PM
  #699
hockeyfreak7
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlottesville
Posts: 5,930
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
To be fair, many people were starting to lose patience with JVR long before he was traded.

I will give Schenn a fair chance to prove himself.
Absolutely-- I'm just proving a point


Somehow certain people have suddenly become much more patient with JVR now that he's gone

hockeyfreak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-27-2012, 09:38 PM
  #700
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,306
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Absolutely-- I'm just proving a point


Somehow certain people have suddenly become much more patient with JVR now that he's gone
It's just easier for people to second guess everything, instead of having faith that things will go according to plan.

flyershockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.