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06-27-2012, 01:47 PM
  #76
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Here is an honest question who do you think the five greatest Power forwards ever are? I mean there are some obvious questions like are Messier and Forsberg power forwards?

For me:

1.) Gordie Howe
2.) Mark Messier
3.) Brendan Shanahan
4.) Clark Gillies
5.) Eric Lindros

Guys I had a tough time not putting in Wendel Clark, Cam Neely, Rick Tocchet and I think Jerome Iginla is certainly in the discussion. Obviously if you view Forsberg as a power forward I think he top five probably takes fourth and knocks Gillies to fifth. I just don't think really fought enough or was a classic power forward, Messier did enough of that he qualifies for me while Forsberg didn't. Clark for me not Neely was the biggest omission.

Reason I bring up for those dogging how easy LW numbers are to compile this is a really elite list with all three forward spots and I think you will be hard pressed to find a way to knock Shanahan out of the top 5 if you are being honest.

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06-27-2012, 02:06 PM
  #77
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By the way another name that probably merits discussion and he will certainly go in the hall of fame even though I hate his guts, is our old buddy Claude Lemieux.

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06-27-2012, 02:52 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by redwings19405 View Post
by the way another name that probably merits discussion and he will certainly go in the hall of fame even though i hate his guts, is our old buddy claude lemieux.
Boooooooo

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06-27-2012, 02:54 PM
  #79
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boooooooo
Trust me I hated it, more pest than power forward for me, but to just outright dismiss him is not having an honest discussion.

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06-27-2012, 05:47 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Yzerman was a cut below Lemieux/Gretzky.

Oates?
Tw cuts below Yzerman.

Oates belongs in the Hall.

But he's not a first-ballot guy. Not when a guy like Shanny is on the ticket.
Oates wasn't a first-ballot guy. He had been on the ballot for a while, 5 years I think.

I'm surprised how under-rated Oates is in this thread. The first guy Shanahan should have been ahead of was Sundin anyway.

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06-27-2012, 08:46 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Oates wasn't a first-ballot guy. He had been on the ballot for a while, 5 years I think.

I'm surprised how under-rated Oates is in this thread. The first guy Shanahan should have been ahead of was Sundin anyway.
Totally agree, but he should also have gotten in over Oates and Bure.

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06-27-2012, 09:38 PM
  #82
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Shanahan will get in next year. Bure and Oates were already snubbed for several years, it was time to give them their due.

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06-27-2012, 10:39 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
oates also outscored shanahan from '94-'03. oates was age 31-40. shanahan was age 25-34.

goals are extremely important, and that is one of the main reasons i think oates was better.

oates caused more goals than shanahan. he did not score nearly as many as shanahan, but he increased goals by his teammates much more.
There's already a stat called Goals Created. And you quoted it wrong, incidentally:

Rank Player GC
18. Brendan Shanahan 542.84
36. Adam Oates 478.79

Hmm. Well then, how about Offensive Point Shares?

17. Brendan Shanahan 118.40
45. Adam Oates 94.37

Oops. How about Total Point Shares?

35. Brendan Shanahan 147.94
88. Adam Oates 117.06

Oops. How about On-Ice Goals For/Against?

Oates: 2019 GF/1440 GA
Shanahan: 1969 GF/1167 GA

Oops. Gee, these aren't even close. Oates can't even top Pierre Turgeon in many of these categories, much less Shanahan.

So let's sum up:

Wins for Oates:
Assists

Wins for Shanahan:
Goals
Game-Winning Goals
Power Play Goals
Power Play Points (493 to 431, this is tough to find)
Shorthanded Goals
Shorthanded Points
Goals Created
Point Shares
Offensive Point Shares
Physical Play
Defensive Play
Leadership
3 Stanley Cups
1 Gold Medal

You never addressed the physical angle.
You never addressed the defensive angle.
You never addressed the winning angle.

These are all undisputed huge pluses in Shanahan's favor.

These two players don't belong in the same conversation. Shanahan was the superior player and it was not close. If Oates made his teammates so much better as you suggest, he would have won something at some point in his career. He didn't.

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06-27-2012, 10:47 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post

These two players don't belong in the same conversation. Shanahan was the superior player and it was not close. If Oates made his teammates so much better as you suggest, he would have won something at some point in his career. He didn't.
Don't forget Oates NCAA championship Sarcastro

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06-27-2012, 11:52 PM
  #85
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Totally agree, but he should also have gotten in over Oates and Bure.
I can see an argument for Shanny over Oates. Not totally sure I buy it, but I can see it. Gotta disagree on Bure though. Bure was a tier ahead of Shanahan as a player. He reached a level of dominance Shanny never got to, even with the shortened career.

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06-28-2012, 02:08 AM
  #86
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It just boggles the mind what the HHOF committee was thinking when they made this decision.

I understand that Oates, Bure and Sundin probably all deserve a spot in the Hall, but why this year? Why over a guy that most everyone agreed was a LOCK to be a 1st Ballot guy?

Oates and Bure have been passed over 5 times. If the HHOF really wanted them in, why didn't they go in in 2010? That class was Dino Ciccarelli, Cammi Granato and Angela James. Oates and Bure couldn't beat out Dino and two girls, but they can beat out Shanahan? WTF is that?

As far as Sundin is concerned, he should have been the 1st Ballot guy sitting this one out, no question. Great player, put up a lot of points on a middle-of-the run team, but never won anything. In fact, he sounds a lot like Oates and, of course, we know how long Oates had to wait.
From my understanding, women and builders are not on the same quota as male players. The maximum amount of inductees per year is four male players and two women since 2010, So Oates and Bure weren't really beat out by them, they just choosed not to induct them.

These journalists and former players, even if extremely respectable, are all North Americans. Right or wrong, of course they are gonna prefer the hardnosed North American who played hockey the way it's supposed to be played. I could post away 10-15 tweets from European journalists saying how deserving they think Sundin is. The HOF committee has Europeans in it, including Larionov and Hedberg, so there you go. But even so, 14 of 18 members have to give their blessing.

Anyway, neither of those tweets seem to bring any arguments to the matter. One argument is more points? Wtf, 5 more points in 180 more games? Cups is about the only legit argument I see. A team award, but Mats can probably counter with his SEL and International titles. I think generally, especially as of late, the committee takes way more consideration to International play than people are aware of. Mats was a winner, just never in the NHL. Don't get me wrong, there are actual arguments to be made for Shanny, but from those I only see "I had this player over the other" because I liked him more.

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Old
06-28-2012, 02:58 AM
  #87
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Shanahan is perhaps the best powerforward of his era.

Mats Sundin isn't the best anything of his era. Well. he's the creepiest looking bald guy since uncle fester. But that's beside the point.

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06-28-2012, 10:26 PM
  #88
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Up 6-0, Red Wings teams of recent years would probably get smashed by the Shea Webers of the world and have no response.
This is why it was great to have Shanny and Lapointe on those early Wings teams. Great stuff. Love how Marty started it off with a cheap shot. And then he just goes. And Shanny looking for ANYONE.
That's championship swagger right there.

And Scotty, calm as can be, while Mark Crawford loses his marbles.

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Old
06-30-2012, 03:44 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Peter Tosh View Post
Way better career than both Oates and Bure!
Oates arguably, but if you honestly think Shanahan was better than Bure you are out of your mind. Red Wings biased at it's best.

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06-30-2012, 06:33 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CloneHakanPlease View Post
Oates arguably, but if you honestly think Shanahan was better than Bure you are out of your mind. Red Wings biased at it's best.
Taken on a career level Shanahan accomplished more and played longer.

Peak, Bure for sure, but I like the accomplishments of Shanahan, but that's just my opinion. Same goes for Shanny vs Lindros and you'd be hard pressed to say Bure > Lindros.

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06-30-2012, 01:00 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Taken on a career level Shanahan accomplished more and played longer.

Peak, Bure for sure, but I like the accomplishments of Shanahan, but that's just my opinion. Same goes for Shanny vs Lindros and you'd be hard pressed to say Bure > Lindros.

It could have been easily argued that in the mid-90's to the first Olympic games in 98 that Lindros and Bure were the two best players for a three or four year period. Jagr probably the other of that discussion. I think people forget just how good both Bure and Lindros were before injuries took hold. The Russian Rocket was popular, Lindros was not. That is the reason Sundin is in ahead of Shanahan in my opinion, curious if he hadn't took his new job what role that would have played also. So for me popularity is why Bure went in first, both belong and like you I give Lindros the slight nod, he is one of the most dominant players I have ever seen.

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