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Trading Private (Bobby) Ryan? All Ryan Discussion Here. [Part IV]

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06-27-2012, 06:54 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
"Young NHL player with upside + 1st round pick + 2nd or 3rd round pick" = Voracek or Read, 1st, and 2nd/3rd. How the hell is that equal to Schenn/Couturier AND Voracek?

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06-27-2012, 06:57 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
"Young NHL player with upside + 1st round pick + 2nd or 3rd round pick" = Voracek or Read, 1st, and 2nd/3rd. How the hell is that equal to Schenn/Couturier AND Voracek?

"A Jeff Carter return is what ANA should be looking at..."

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06-27-2012, 06:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bruno Mars View Post
Well since there comparable players, it will cost you something in that ballpark.
The argument is that they can get something similar to the value of those players AT THE TIME THEY WERE TRADED.

Simmonds had a career year. Couturier proved to be a steal. Voracek had a very good year. Guess what happens to their value as a result?

The Leafs couldn't have given away Kessel last year. Now he's got value. Luke Schenn was a very difficult piece to move last year, this year he's a "change of scenery" guy. Giroux would have been a really tough sell last year, now he's a complete untouchable. Quick's value last year was tempered by the battle with Bernier, now he's an elite goalie. And on and on and on...


I'm not even arguing about Ryan's value. I think Anaheim should insist on Schenn and the Flyers shouldn't bite. End of story. But this argument that June 2011 value somehow is equal to June 2012 value...it's silly.

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06-27-2012, 06:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post

"A Jeff Carter return is what ANA should be looking at..."
That is exactly how that read. I am laughing at you right now.

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06-27-2012, 06:59 PM
  #105
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First of all, Carter was not traded for Couturier+Voracek. He was traded for Voracek+1st round pick.

So if you really want something equal to the Carter trade, Flyers fans will happily give you Voracek+Meszaros+1st. Rumor has it that Holmgren already offered that and was turned down.


Second of all, good luck finding one Flyers fan who claims Schenn or Couturier to be more valuable than Bobby Ryan. There is a difference between value and value to your team. Holmgren and management is committed to building around the three young centers, and the Luke Schenn trade only reinforces this notion.

That doesnt mean Flyers fans think Schenn>>>>Ryan, because that is obviously not the case. What it means is that the Flyers will not be dealing Brayden Schenn or Sean Couturier because they would rather see the potential of their young team before messing with the core.

Same appllies for the Rangers with Stepan and Kreider-- this is not unique to the Flyers.



So that funny little dialogue up there is completely false. Is Bobby Ryan a tremendous player? Absolutely. But to expect teams to restructure their entire future to acquire him is absurd. It's acceptable to demand Schenn/Couturier in return, but dont belittle Flyers fans for turning it down especially when you are demanding other core pieces (Meszaros/Coburn) on top of them.


But continue on. Once again, hyperbole and sensationalism are so much fun, so dont let the truth get in the way

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06-27-2012, 07:03 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
That is exactly how that read. I am laughing at you right now.
Are you really this childish? You clipped off the one part of that post that said exactly what you claimed had not been said. You're really going to pretend it isn't there?

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06-27-2012, 07:04 PM
  #107
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Can't imagine the Ducks announcing that they traded the beloved Bobby Ryan for ..... Matt Read (a 25 yr old rookie who had a solid year), Andrej Meszaros (a 4/5 dman even on the Ducks), and two first round picks that will likely be in the 20-30 range.

We might be laid back in OC, but when we hurl our surfboards and golf clubs at Murray he'll understand that he didn't get a good return in the trade.

If Philly fans want Ryan with this package, then you'll just have to wait until Bobby becomes a UFA. Better offers await us after the dust settles on Parise and Nash.

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06-27-2012, 07:05 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
The argument is that they can get something similar to the value of those players AT THE TIME THEY WERE TRADED.

Simmonds had a career year. Couturier proved to be a steal. Voracek had a very good year. Guess what happens to their value as a result?

The Leafs couldn't have given away Kessel last year. Now he's got value. Luke Schenn was a very difficult piece to move last year, this year he's a "change of scenery" guy. Giroux would have been a really tough sell last year, now he's a complete untouchable. Quick's value last year was tempered by the battle with Bernier, now he's an elite goalie. And on and on and on...


I'm not even arguing about Ryan's value. I think Anaheim should insist on Schenn and the Flyers shouldn't bite. End of story. But this argument that June 2011 value somehow is equal to June 2012 value...it's silly.
+

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
First of all, Carter was not traded for Couturier+Voracek. He was traded for Voracek+1st round pick.

So if you really want something equal to the Carter trade, Flyers fans will happily give you Voracek+Meszaros+1st. Rumor has it that Holmgren already offered that and was turned down.


Second of all, good luck finding one Flyers fan who claims Schenn or Couturier to be more valuable than Bobby Ryan. There is a difference between value and value to your team. Holmgren and management is committed to building around the three young centers, and the Luke Schenn trade only reinforces this notion.

That doesnt mean Flyers fans think Schenn>>>>Ryan, because that is obviously not the case. What it means is that the Flyers will not be dealing Brayden Schenn or Sean Couturier because they would rather see the potential of their young team before messing with the core.

Same appllies for the Rangers with Stepan and Kreider-- this is not unique to the Flyers.



So that funny little dialogue up there is completely false. Is Bobby Ryan a tremendous player? Absolutely. But to expect teams to restructure their entire future to acquire him is absurd. It's acceptable to demand Schenn/Couturier in return, but dont belittle Flyers fans for turning it down especially when you are demanding other core pieces (Meszaros/Coburn) on top of them.


But continue on. Once again, hyperbole and sensationalism are so much fun, so dont let the truth get in the way
=

Great posts. Well said.

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06-27-2012, 07:05 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
First of all, Carter was not traded for Couturier+Voracek. He was traded for Voracek+1st round pick.

So if you really want something equal to the Carter trade, Flyers fans will happily give you Voracek+Meszaros+1st. Rumor has it that Holmgren already offered that and was turned down.
Actually, being precise, Carter was traded for Voracek plus the 8th overall draft pick shortly before the draft. A first round pick that can only reasonably be expected to be 20th+ overall almost a year from now does not remotely equal that value.

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06-27-2012, 07:05 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Are you really this childish? You clipped off the one part of that post that said exactly what you claimed had not been said. You're really going to pretend it isn't there?
I included the part that was relevant to the conversation. He should return what Jeff Carter returned THEN, not what the pieces turned out to be. I wasn't the one who left off the relevant part. "Young NHL player with upside + 1st round pick + 2nd or 3rd round pick" is nothing at all like what Ducks fans are demanding in this thread, and you're wrong to try to use "Jeff Carter return" as ammunition to say that Flyers fans think Voracek and Couturier is anywhere in the ballpark. Just stop.

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06-27-2012, 07:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
Actually, being precise, Carter was traded for Voracek plus the 8th overall draft pick shortly before the draft. A first round pick that can only reasonably be expected to be 20th+ overall almost a year from now does not remotely equal that value.
Show me where I claimed that it did.

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06-27-2012, 07:09 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
Actually, being precise, Carter was traded for Voracek plus the 8th overall draft pick shortly before the draft. A first round pick that can only reasonably be expected to be 20th+ overall almost a year from now does not remotely equal that value.
This is a better point to make, although Voracek's value has gone up (RFA status takes away some of that shine, though). I'd gladly change the 8th overall and 68th overall to the 20-30th overall and 50th-60th overall, though. Voracek, 1st, and 2nd? I wouldn't want to trade Voracek now, but Ryan is more established.

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06-27-2012, 07:09 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I included the part that was relevant to the conversation. He should return what Jeff Carter returned THEN, not what the pieces turned out to be. I wasn't the one who left off the relevant part. "Young NHL player with upside + 1st round pick + 2nd or 3rd round pick" is nothing at all like what Ducks fans are demanding in this thread, and you're wrong to try to use "Jeff Carter return" as ammunition to say that Flyers fans think Voracek and Couturier is anywhere in the ballpark. Just stop.
"Those are all ridiculous strawmen. Who is saying Ryan will get what Carter or Richards got?"

I'll leave the rest of this conversation up to your case worker.

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06-27-2012, 07:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Show me where I claimed that it did.
I didn't say you did. Since the differences between Couturier and a 1st was pointed out, I thought it would only be fair to point out the difference between the vastly different picks that were equally labeled purely as "1st round picks".

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06-27-2012, 07:12 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Emerald Duck View Post
Can't imagine the Ducks announcing that they traded the beloved Bobby Ryan for ..... Matt Read (a 25 yr old rookie who had a solid year), Andrej Meszaros (a 4/5 dman even on the Ducks), and two first round picks that will likely be in the 20-30 range.

We might be laid back in OC, but when we hurl our surfboards and golf clubs at Murray he'll understand that he didn't get a good return in the trade.

If Philly fans want Ryan with this package, then you'll just have to wait until Bobby becomes a UFA. Better offers await us after the dust settles on Parise and Nash.
Well, as a Kings' fan I can dream...

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06-27-2012, 07:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
"Those are all ridiculous strawmen. Who is saying Ryan will get what Carter or Richards got?"

I'll leave the rest of this conversation up to your case worker.
I clearly meant that Ryan would not return Voracek, Couturier, and Cousins or Schenn, Simmonds, and half of Nick Grossmann.

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06-27-2012, 07:15 PM
  #117
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Funny you mention that, because the post I was responding to did not use the same logic as you are using. His logic was that Read's stats (offensive) were so close to Ryan's that it made it fair value...period. He made no mention of anything else. I responded with a ridiculous post, to show him how ridiculous his was.
Well, as long as you admit it was ridiculous.

Quote:
And for the record, I think you're crazy if you think Read is anywhere close to Ryan's level. Ryan is considered a star winger, (not elite, but very good) with 40 goal potential once he gets 1st unit PP time, whereas, Read is...well, nobody knows...I'm sure, whether they'll admit it or not, most if not all Flyer fans will agree, otherwise they would be wanting to trade him for Ryan. We're talking apples to oranges here...
I think Read's value is far higher than the majority of the people around him on the scoreboard. He's young, he may well get even better (i doubt it, but it's possible) and the big one, $$$. His cap hit is less than $1m for two more years! In today's world, that's huge and that's why I don't want to trade him.

Your post made out they were in differing worlds. Ryan is undoubtedly the better player, but that's not everything nowadays.

Quote:
BTW, if you're really saying there's not much on the scoreboard, when describing Bobby Ryan, then really there's no reason to go any further with this discussion. His stats speak for themselves.
Read what I wrote before you over-react. There's not much between them on the scoreboard to justify the huge difference in value. I presume he brings more to the table and I accept he had a down year but that actually hurts value you know? It's not a given that he'll bounce back.

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06-27-2012, 07:16 PM
  #118
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Well, as a Kings' fan I can dream...
Fingers crossed there's a lock out if it did.

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06-27-2012, 07:16 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Emerald Duck View Post
Can't imagine the Ducks announcing that they traded the beloved Bobby Ryan for ..... Matt Read (a 25 yr old rookie who had a solid year), Andrej Meszaros (a 4/5 dman even on the Ducks), and two first round picks that will likely be in the 20-30 range.
This was my point, as well...but apparently, since some Flyer fans think it's fair value, then we're crazy to expect anything else.

The fact is, Read isn't what the Ducks are looking for. If he was, then why would they use Bobby Ryan to acquire him when Ryan's much better. The only way trading Ryan makes any sense is if they improve their team, overall. Read, Mez, and a late first doesn't improve them. Even if you want to argue that the value is good (which I think is crazy), it still doesn't make any sense for the Ducks to make that trade.

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06-27-2012, 07:16 PM
  #120
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I didn't say you did. Since the differences between Couturier and a 1st was pointed out, I thought it would only be fair to point out the difference between the vastly different picks that were equally labeled purely as "1st round picks".
I did not claim that they were equal picks.

Are we going to ignore that Meszaros is in there?


I believe the rumored deal that Holmgren proposed included two first rounders as well....

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06-27-2012, 07:17 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
This is a better point to make, although Voracek's value has gone up (RFA status takes away some of that shine, though). I'd gladly change the 8th overall and 68th overall to the 20-30th overall and 50th-60th overall, though. Voracek, 1st, and 2nd? I wouldn't want to trade Voracek now, but Ryan is more established.
I don't really understand why Voracek's value is perceived to have gone up, to begin with. He put up basically the same numbers he did the years before, while being a year older and playing with better teammates on a deeper team than he did before. I don't really see why his value has gone up. The lack of a contract / increased salary starting next year would see it decreased, if anything, from all I can tell.

Regarding the picks, it's not going to be enough to make a change. The Ducks don't intend to deal Ryan for futures. An early 1st rounder would have had decent value to the club at the draft, as there's a shot that could help the team relatively quickly, but with the draft passing, and next year's 1st rounder not even being early, it might equal the objective value, but it certainly doesn't equal the subjective value, that's lower on assets that do not help the team for at least two years from now.

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06-27-2012, 07:27 PM
  #122
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News: The Flyers have interest in Rick Nash/Bobby Ryan/Ryan Suter/Keith Yandle/every other big-name player on the market.
What it sounds like: The Flyers are going to land a big free agent this offseason.
What it really means: The Flyers will always be linked to any marquee player who is being shopped or is about to hit free agency. With JvR out of the picture, there’s no way the Flyers would be able to land any of these players via trade without moving either (if not both) Schenn or Couturier.
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According to a source to LeBrun, any package that the Flyers would put together for Ryan would have to center around Brayden Schenn, who the Flyers are apprehensive to let go of.
Quote:
Randy Miller via twitter: The Flyers would probably have to give up Brayden Schenn, Braydon Coburn and a 1st round pick for Bobby Ryan.

I see a common theme amongst league sources as apposed to fans. Hmmmm

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06-27-2012, 07:29 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I did not claim that they were equal picks.
They were labeled the same. I just pointed out the difference. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Are we going to ignore that Meszaros is in there?
I don't think we are. I do think we are not on the same page as to what that does for the Ducks.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I believe the rumored deal that Holmgren proposed included two first rounders as well....
Well, that's value being used in a way that isn't attractive for the Ducks. Ryan isn't traded for pure futures, as (expectedly late) 1st round picks a year, or even two years from even being selected. They have value, but they don't equal the value in those comparable deals, as it's split up in more pieces and goes in different directions.

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06-27-2012, 07:33 PM
  #124
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Well, as long as you admit it was ridiculous.
Yes, I believe my point was made, however.


Quote:
I think Read's value is far higher than the majority of the people around him on the scoreboard. He's young, he may well get even better (i doubt it, but it's possible) and the big one, $$$. His cap hit is less than $1m for two more years! In today's world, that's huge and that's why I don't want to trade him.
The problem with Read is that he came from nowhere and was not expected to do what he did. (Unless I'm mistaken and he was highly touted) That leads to reservations and I'd like to see him repeat that type of performance for another season or two before claiming he's worth being mentioned alongside players like Bobby Ryan.

Quote:
Your post made out they were in differing worlds. Ryan is undoubtedly the better player, but that's not everything nowadays.
It's apples and oranges, my friend. Until Read can consistently do what he did last season, I don't see how he can be placed on the same level as Ryan.


Quote:
Read what I wrote before you over-react. There's not much between them on the scoreboard to justify the huge difference in value. I presume he brings more to the table and I accept he had a down year but that actually hurts value you know? It's not a given that he'll bounce back.
The difference is that Ryan still projects to be closer to a 40 goal/year scorer once he gets 1st unit PP time. None of us know what Read projects to be, because he basically exceeded all expectations. I think it's great that he did, however, as I mentioned above I'm skeptical that he'll continue to do what he did this past season. One thing that makes Ryan so valuable is his consistency. Even in what was considered to be a terrible year for him, he still managed to pot 31 goals. With regards to bouncing back, even if he continues as he did this past season, he's still a 30+ goal scorer each and every year. Not too shabby, eh?

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06-27-2012, 07:33 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by airforceones25 View Post
I see a common theme amongst league sources as apposed to fans. Hmmmm
Really? I see a common theme between GMs and fans.

Ducks GM and fans want Schenn.

Flyers GM and fans dont want to give up Schenn.


Can you show me one Flyers fan who thinks Ducks fans are unreasonable in asking for Schenn? It makes perfect sense-- the Flyers just refuse to do it. No big deal.

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