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Kings re-sign Jarret Stoll for 3 years, 9.75 million (3.25m cap hit)

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06-25-2012, 07:00 PM
  #151
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That's a fluff piece. The finances of a good chunk of NHL teams, including almost every team in the southern part of the country are terrible.

The league wide hockey revenues are also drastically cut into because the players are guaranteed 57% of them (minus anything held in Escrow). This is laughably bad for the owners considering the NFL players get 47% and NBA players get 51%

95.6 capacity, and how many tickets are being given away in Florida, Phoenix, Carolina, Tampa. How many others such as in Anaheim are considered sold when part of a buy one get one free season ticket plan. Or how many others such as at Staples Center are sold as premier seats and never used. Yes it still counts as a ticket sold, but no money is brought in from any other sources and it's not a good indication of the strength of the market.

I'm not saying the owners aren't to blame, they signed the damn thing, but at the same time its a clearly flawed salary structure when Jarret Stoll might get $4 on the open market or Christian Ehrhoff can demand as much as he did last summer.

If the NHL were making as much money as your piece indicates they wouldn't be about to go through another potential labor stoppage which could do serious damage to the leagues reputation and future. But they have no choice, the finances are just a mess, way to many teams are in the red with some teams on the verge of collapse.


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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
Curious, since the owners got just about everything they wanted in the last negotiations.
They didn't ask for nearly enough concessions from the players. Also the salary floor has been a disaster for many franchises who are already losing money hand over fist.

If the owners knew in 2012 the floor would be $48 million, which is $9 million higher than the ceiling was in 2006 they would not have signed the deal.

There are quite a few franchises who just can't afford to spend $48 million a year on salary and stay afloat.

The NHL needs 24-26 teams tops, there is no reason to have franchises in Phoenix, South Florida and Columbus. Contraction would be ideal but neither side will discuss it for different reasons.


Last edited by Herby: 06-25-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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06-25-2012, 07:15 PM
  #152
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LA has always had to overpay guys to play here, it's just the way it is playing on the west coast.
Stoll could've and would've gotten more from someone else to play as second line center, especially some place like Anaheim. His new contract is hardly overpayment.

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06-25-2012, 07:21 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
That's a fluff piece. The finances of a good chunk of NHL teams, including almost every team in the southern part of the country are terrible.

The league wide hockey revenues are also drastically cut into because the players are guaranteed 57% of them (minus anything held in Escrow). This is laughably bad for the owners considering the NFL players get 47% and NBA players get 51%

95.6 capacity, and how many tickets are being given away in Florida, Phoenix, Carolina, Tampa. How many others such as in Anaheim are considered sold when part of a buy one get one free season ticket plan. Or how many others such as at Staples Center are sold as premier seats and never used. Yes it still counts as a ticket sold, but no money is brought in from any other sources and it's not a good indication of the strength of the market.

I'm not saying the owners aren't to blame, they signed the damn thing, but at the same time its a clearly flawed salary structure when Jarret Stoll might get $4 on the open market or Christian Ehrhoff can demand as much as he did last summer.

If the NHL were making as much money as your piece indicates they wouldn't be about to go through another potential labor stoppage which could do serious damage to the leagues reputation and future. But they have no choice, the finances are just a mess, way to many teams are in the red with some teams on the verge of collapse.




They didn't ask for nearly enough concessions from the players. Also the salary floor has been a disaster for many franchises who are already losing money hand over fist.

If the owners knew in 2012 the floor would be $48 million, which is $9 million higher than the ceiling was in 2006 they would not have signed the deal.

There are quite a few franchises who just can't afford to spend $48 million a year on salary and stay afloat.

The NHL needs 24-26 teams tops, there is no reason to have franchises in Phoenix, South Florida and Columbus. Contraction would be ideal but neither side will discuss it for different reasons.
Very good points all around, but the the NHL will never contract a team. Bettman's ego would never allow it, the same way the NBA won't do it either even though they have teams bleeding money too.

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06-25-2012, 07:36 PM
  #154
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Herby, do you remember when Martin Lapointe got $20 million for 4 years and Bobby Holik got $45 million for 5 years? Those were massive overpayments.

Giving Stoll $3.25 million in 2012 pales in comparison to those contracts.

The cap system isn't perfect, but it is better than before.

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06-25-2012, 07:36 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan28 View Post
LA has always had to overpay guys to play here, it's just the way it is playing on the west coast.
Stoll could've and would've gotten more from someone else to play as second line center, especially some place like Anaheim. His new contract is hardly overpayment.
How many teams is Stoll realistically a 2nd line center on? Do people not remember how awful he was this past season? The Ducks just re-signed Koivu, who while pretty washed up is still a better option for the 2nd line than Stoll.

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06-25-2012, 07:39 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
How many teams is Stoll realistically a 2nd line center on? Do people not remember how awful he was this past season? The Ducks just re-signed Koivu, who while pretty washed up is still a better option for the 2nd line than Stoll.
On a cup contender he isn't a 2nd line center, but there are a lot of teams that are far from being a cup contender. He could be that steady veteran presence for a rebuilding team.

Just like Handzus when he signed his 4 year deal. He wasn't signed to bring a cup to LA, he was signed to give some guidence to the young players. Stoll is approaching that stage of his career.

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06-25-2012, 07:46 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Herby, do you remember when Martin Lapointe got $20 million for 4 years and Bobby Holik got $45 million for 5 years? Those were massive overpayments.

Giving Stoll $3.25 million in 2012 pales in comparison to those contracts.

The cap system isn't perfect, but it is better than before.
The cap system is terrible. The older system was terrible too

The old system was terrible because a second or third tier guy like Holik made that much. Lower level teams couldn't compete because there was no salary controls and everyone went to NYR, Philly, Detroit etc.

The current system is flawed because it is forcing teams that can't afford it to spend to a floor, which artificially increases the salaries of very average players like Jarret Stoll to where, according to you, a 6 goal, 21 point faceoff specialist would have demanded $4 million on the open market. If Jarret Stoll is worth $4, what is Zach Parise worth, what is an UFA Kopitar worth... $10 million right? well guess what, we're right back to where we were in the early 00's.

Once again, there was a lockout 8 years ago, it is still fresh in the minds of everyone. Do you really think the league would risk as much damage as this lockout is going to cause if the league wasn't in severe financial troubles? The system is a DISASTER and guys like Stoll potentially being a $4 mill a year player are one of the big reasons.

Oh and just to argue. Martin Lapointe was a pretty damn good player. Didn't he have like 30 goals as a 3rd liner the year before UFA. Not saying he was worth 5 million a year, but he was a far better player than Stoll.

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06-25-2012, 07:51 PM
  #158
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sounds like your main concern with the current CBA is that it allows Jarret Stoll to make more money than YOU think he is worth - lol

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06-25-2012, 07:51 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Oh and just to argue. Martin Lapointe was a pretty damn good player. Didn't he have like 30 goals as a 3rd liner the year before UFA. Not saying he was worth 5 million a year, but he was a far better player than Stoll.
It was a higher scoring league, but here are Lapointe's goal totals the 5 years before he signed:

16
15
16
16
27 (Detroit also scored 253 goals, which would have been 4th last season)

After he signed:

17
8
15

Post lockout

14
13

Very similar to Stoll's numbers. He just cashed in after scoring 27 goals. Not a good return on Boston's investment.


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sounds like your main concern with the current CBA is that it allows Jarret Stoll to make more money than YOU think he is worth - lol
I think the big problem is that the NHL can't support 30 teams with the current CBA. The NHLPA will never allow contraction, each team lost would cost at least 23 jobs. I haven't followed much of the pre-negotiations, but Fehr already took his first shot by saying that the players would play without a new CBA if the negotiations take longer than September 15th to get signed. This makes the owners the bad guys when they lock them out.

The NHL owners will not start the season on time without a new signed CBA. There only leverage is locking out the players, if they don't, then the players will keep playing under the current terms.

Real negotiations aren't even set to begin until Wednesday. The owners are under a gag order, but Fehr said the players are free to talk about negotiations.

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06-25-2012, 07:58 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
sounds like your main concern with the current CBA is that it allows Jarret Stoll to make more money than YOU think he is worth - lol
Is that what you take from it? I just think this contract is a perfect example of what is wrong with the CBA. Guy signs a contract amount as a 2nd liner, four years later he signs for the same amount as a 3rd liner (with some thinking he took an 800k a year discount). This is going on all over the league, it's salary inflation that can't be sustained by teams already swimming in red ink.

The last thing the league wants is a lockout, it would be a pr nightmare and they really may lose any casual fans they have left. The fact that both sides are preparing for this (cancelled rookie camps, cancelled Euro openers etc) should tell you just how bad the system really is. The league pretty much has no choice but to either get the HRI closer or below 50/50, the cap lowered or a rollback on salaries.

But if you want to just think this is me with a vendetta against a certain player and don't wish to discuss the issue go right ahead. there are plenty of other players you can replace Stoll with that have ridiculous contracts for what they bring to the table, and it's only going to be uglier a week from now. Especially with certain teams being forced to overpay because they have a gun to their head to reach the salary floor.

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06-25-2012, 08:02 PM
  #161
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I think the best comparable to Stoll would be someone like Mike Peca, who retired after 2008-09 at 34. Their career PPG is almost exact (Stoll at .53, Peca at .54).

Here is Peca's salary history, http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/3018
He had a few productive seasons as a #2 center, just as Stoll did previously, but his numbers took a big dip once his numbers and special teams ice time was reduced.

A more current comparison would be Dave Bolland, whose career high in points is 47 and he's posted back-to-back seasons with 37 points, and he's earning $3.375M per year. Stoll's salary is fair value.

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06-25-2012, 08:06 PM
  #162
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Talk about salary inflation:

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay


http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay




Thanks for that link, that site is awesome.

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06-25-2012, 08:09 PM
  #163
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You really think Stoll compares to Peca?

Peca played in the dead puck era so it's hard to compare numbers, but he was their 2nd leading scorer the year they went to the finals.

He was also a two time Selke winner and a member of the Canadian Olympic team. I don't see a comparison there.

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06-25-2012, 08:13 PM
  #164
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Peca was a fierce hitter and strong on the draw but he was never known for his offense. He had a few good offensive outbursts, but that was only for two-three seasons and that was it. Peca finally settled in as a 3rd line C Stoll went through that in Edmonton as one of their top two C's, this year was a struggle for him being used as a winger and having a rotating role and cast of wingers, but he played considerably better during the playoffs. Another player that comes to mind is Todd Marchant.

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06-25-2012, 08:17 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
The cap system is terrible. The older system was terrible too

The old system was terrible because a second or third tier guy like Holik made that much. Lower level teams couldn't compete because there was no salary controls and everyone went to NYR, Philly, Detroit etc.

The current system is flawed because it is forcing teams that can't afford it to spend to a floor, which artificially increases the salaries of very average players like Jarret Stoll to where, according to you, a 6 goal, 21 point faceoff specialist would have demanded $4 million on the open market. If Jarret Stoll is worth $4, what is Zach Parise worth, what is an UFA Kopitar worth... $10 million right? well guess what, we're right back to where we were in the early 00's.

Once again, there was a lockout 8 years ago, it is still fresh in the minds of everyone. Do you really think the league would risk as much damage as this lockout is going to cause if the league wasn't in severe financial troubles? The system is a DISASTER and guys like Stoll potentially being a $4 mill a year player are one of the big reasons.

Oh and just to argue. Martin Lapointe was a pretty damn good player. Didn't he have like 30 goals as a 3rd liner the year before UFA. Not saying he was worth 5 million a year, but he was a far better player than Stoll.
Stoll in 11-12 isn't worth even $3 million. Stoll in unrestricted free agency, taking his career into account, probably gets more than that.

As long as players can be unrestricted in free agency, players will get overpaid, and teams will spend wildly. Outside of taking that option away from players, it doesn't matter what system is in place. To complain about the money that unrestricted free agents make at this point is pointless. That genie is well out of the bottle. We know how teams in all sports throw money around if they can. UFA's will get more money than they should. That's just how it is.

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06-25-2012, 08:24 PM
  #166
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Dude, I think you drastically underrate or forget how good Peca was from about 95-2004. Maybe the Peca of the Oilers or Jackets was at a level with Stoll, certainly not the Peca of Buffalo, not even close.

Peca was one of the best two way forwards in the NHL. He always matched up with the other teams top lines and was still able to be one of Buffalo's top scorers.

Stoll has never finished higer than fifth on Kings scoring. Has never won, been nominated or even sniffed a Selke and certainly will never be in consideration for Team Canada at a best vs. best tournament.

Bolland is a more fair comparison to Stoll, I'll give you that. Peca I don't think is even close. It would be like comparing Stumpel to Kopitar.

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06-25-2012, 08:29 PM
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Maybe I just found Peca to be grossly overrated (and he had no business playing for Team Canada over Joe Thornton). He had one season in which he scored over 50 points in Buffalo and had one terrific season with the Islanders. For the most part of his career he hovered around 30-40 points. I think you're remembering Peca too fondly for two really good seasons.

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06-25-2012, 08:35 PM
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Peca may have been overrated, but he was a needed piece for the 2002 team. Just as Bergeron and Richards were needed on their 2010 team. Can't have all offensive players, he played a shutdown role and played it as well as anyone in the NHL in his prime.

Peca was, IMO the best defensive forward in the world for about a 5-8 year period. With Fedorov, Yzerman and Lehtinen. Jarret Stoll was the 3rd best defensive center on the 2012 LA Kings.


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06-25-2012, 08:39 PM
  #169
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Quote:
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How many teams is Stoll realistically a 2nd line center on? Do people not remember how awful he was this past season? The Ducks just re-signed Koivu, who while pretty washed up is still a better option for the 2nd line than Stoll.
Don't know, but I do know that after the couple of top tier FA go, the drop off for playoff proven centers is slim. Hell, I bet Burke would've give him 4-5 million. He proved his value in the playoffs, not in the regular season and that right there make his value much more attractive.

If you get a chance, listen to what Lombardi said today on the NHL network about the importance of re-signing Stoll.Good stuff.

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06-25-2012, 08:43 PM
  #170
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Here's a great article. Thought you guys would enjoy it.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/..._negotiations/

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06-25-2012, 08:56 PM
  #171
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stoll isnt worth 3 million today if the cap was 56 million
but since the cap is 70 million im not to bothered by his contract.

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06-27-2012, 05:30 PM
  #172
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06-27-2012, 07:01 PM
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Stoll has helped an international corporation make plenty of dough while he performs for one of their holdings. He helped changed the culture and attitude of a under-performing franchise. He helped bring a Championship (some say the Championship) to LA.

He's earned his payday as a pro.

The owners, GM's, Agents, and everyone running this league are big boys with a bunch of high powered attorneys looking out for them.

Don't lose a lot of sleep over one player's payday and the CBA.

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06-27-2012, 07:42 PM
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I've been saying this for years: the NHL cannot sustain itself as long as it continues to masquerade as one of the major four sports in North America. The NHL is a solar system's distance of tiers below the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The sooner Bettman and league brass realize this, the sooner the league starts moving toward a healthy financial state.

The league needs to move teams out of hockey black holes (Glendale, Dallas, Columbus, South Florida) and back into Canada, where a lottery team will sell out every home game and stay afloat financially. This is the problem. Hockey is a niche sport that will never be seriously prepared to challenge the NFL, NBA, or MLB for fans or their money in America. This has become lost on Bettman and the league in recent years as they've bandied about trying to put franchises in places that have zero interest in the sport. When Bettman sold the idea as growing the sport, all it has done is cripple the financial infrastructure of the league as a whole and continued to drag everyone into labor disputes because there just isn't enough money to go around.

I'm not one to disrespect fans in sun belt states. Hell, I'm a fan of the Los Angeles Kings. But the Kings have stayed afloat for all these years with a steady fanbase because they play out of the second biggest market in the entire country. Other sun belt teams don't have this luxury.

Contraction is ideal but will never happen under Bettman's watch.

I haven't gotten too emotionally invested in all the offseason festivities for two reasons. 1. We won the damn Cup and I'm still riding that high. And 2. another lockout is almost a given at this point. It truly is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about, but it's there. Both the union and the BOG are so far apart on differing issues I don't see how another work stoppage is avoided. We may see a contracted season, because I highly, highly doubt either side is resigned to losing another full season, which would almost fold the league. But I'm definitely not holding my breath for games in October.

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06-27-2012, 08:04 PM
  #175
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I've been saying this for years: the NHL cannot sustain itself as long as it continues to masquerade as one of the major four sports in North America. The NHL is a solar system's distance of tiers below the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The sooner Bettman and league brass realize this, the sooner the league starts moving toward a healthy financial state.

The league needs to move teams out of hockey black holes (Glendale, Dallas, Columbus, South Florida) and back into Canada, where a lottery team will sell out every home game and stay afloat financially. This is the problem. Hockey is a niche sport that will never be seriously prepared to challenge the NFL, NBA, or MLB for fans or their money in America. This has become lost on Bettman and the league in recent years as they've bandied about trying to put franchises in places that have zero interest in the sport. When Bettman sold the idea as growing the sport, all it has done is cripple the financial infrastructure of the league as a whole and continued to drag everyone into labor disputes because there just isn't enough money to go around.

I'm not one to disrespect fans in sun belt states. Hell, I'm a fan of the Los Angeles Kings. But the Kings have stayed afloat for all these years with a steady fanbase because they play out of the second biggest market in the entire country. Other sun belt teams don't have this luxury.

Contraction is ideal but will never happen under Bettman's watch.

I haven't gotten too emotionally invested in all the offseason festivities for two reasons. 1. We won the damn Cup and I'm still riding that high. And 2. another lockout is almost a given at this point. It truly is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about, but it's there. Both the union and the BOG are so far apart on differing issues I don't see how another work stoppage is avoided. We may see a contracted season, because I highly, highly doubt either side is resigned to losing another full season, which would almost fold the league. But I'm definitely not holding my breath for games in October.
Very well said.

I love hockey, but sadly outside of the strong northern markets like Philly, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Chicago and Minnesota the sport struggles to be taken seriously in the USA.

And the salary situation continues to get uglier and uglier with each signing.

Dennis Wideman now joins Jones, Stoll, Stuart, Jackman etc. in this grossly overpaid club, this one far worse than the others, just imagine what 7/1 is going to look like. Go look at what these guys signed for compared to what star players (not superstars, but stars) were signing for in the summers after the lockout. I realize there is inflation involved, but not at the level we are seeing.

If Wideman is worth 5.25, Suter is worth 8+
if Stoll is worth 3.25, what is Mike Fisher worth next summer at this rate, 5-6?
If Jackman gets 3.1 what does Scuderi get?

I know a lot of people didn't like how much Doughty got, but be thankful it was last summer and not this summer. Coming off this playoffs and with what others are getting Drew and his agent are probably in the 8 neighborhood.

They really mangled this thing badly. I hope the league has new lawyers and experts for this round of negotiations.

I hope both parties realize what a joke the league is going to be considered if they miss games. But they can't be in the same universe right now if the NHLPA wants to keep the status quo.

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