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Cole/DD - New System, Lower Production?

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06-28-2012, 08:13 AM
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PricePkPatch
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Cole/DD - New System, Lower Production?

An argument YourBuddy (which i still suspect is Carey Price Descended Among Us) made in the other thread made me contemplate a possibility, and I wanted to discuss it.

The point made was that Martin forced everybody to play a Dump & Chase system, which Gomez is ill-suited for. In another system which allows him to carry the puck through the Blue Line, he'd probably be more effective.

It's a bit true, I suspect.

But then, I got worried. Dump & Chase really played into Cole's playstyle and abilities. He's an energy power forward, fast as hell. He has everything in his skillset to thrive on it and create scoring opportunities. Desharnais was pretty good at using Cole's rush and sneak in the zone.

I'm not so worried about Desharnais. The kid is a genius on the ice, he'll likely adjust his play. But do you think Cole would suffer a system change that would put less emphasis on Dump & Chase?

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06-28-2012, 08:18 AM
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Estimated_Prophet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
An argument YourBuddy (which i still suspect is Carey Price Descended Among Us) made in the other thread made me contemplate a possibility, and I wanted to discuss it.

The point made was that Martin forced everybody to play a Dump & Chase system, which Gomez is ill-suited for. In another system which allows him to carry the puck through the Blue Line, he'd probably be more effective.

It's a bit true, I suspect.

But then, I got worried. Dump & Chase really played into Cole's playstyle and abilities. He's an energy power forward, fast as hell. He has everything in his skillset to thrive on it and create scoring opportunities. Desharnais was pretty good at using Cole's rush and sneak in the zone.

I'm not so worried about Desharnais. The kid is a genius on the ice, he'll likely adjust his play. But do you think Cole would suffer a system change that would put less emphasis on Dump & Chase?

It's not like Therrien would tell them not to dump and chase. All coaches preach getting the puck deep.


Last edited by Hawkguy: 06-28-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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06-28-2012, 08:18 AM
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That line was the only line who didn't use the dump and chase that much. They could drift away from the system because of their consistent production.

Cole got most of his goal coming off the rush and skating past defenders cutting to the net. Desharnais is good with the puck and you often see him gain the zone by himself. Pacioretty often feeds off that and plays similar to Cole.

So no, I don't think the new system will doom our scoring line. One thing that is obvious is that they'll garner much more attention from the opponents, so I do expect them to have a harder time to do what they did last year, specially Desharnais.

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06-28-2012, 08:23 AM
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I don't worry about Desharnais getting more opposition. The lil' guy is a Sayian, he just gets better as the opposition comes.. :-D

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06-28-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
That line was the only line who didn't use the dump and chase that much. They could drift away from the system because of their consistent production.

Cole got most of his goal coming off the rush and skating past defenders cutting to the net. Desharnais is good with the puck and you often see him gain the zone by himself. Pacioretty often feeds off that and plays similar to Cole.

So no, I don't think the new system will doom our scoring line. One thing that is obvious is that they'll garner much more attention from the opponents, so I do expect them to have a harder time to do what they did last year, specially Desharnais.
That line used the dump and chase all the time. Cole and Pacioretty are perfect for this as they are both big and very fast. Pacioretty used a cross ice dump into Cole's side where Cole could get the puck off of the boards. Once they had possession they would look for Desharnais who could then work his magic. Many of Cole's breakaways and net drives came from high dumps where he could go around the defender and retrieve the puck above the circles.

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06-28-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
That line used the dump and chase all the time. Cole and Pacioretty are perfect for this as they are both big and very fast. Pacioretty used a cross ice dump into Cole's side where Cole could get the puck off of the boards. Once they had possession they would look for Desharnais who could then work his magic. Many of Cole's breakaways and net drives came from high dumps where he could go around the defender and retrieve the puck above the circles.
That's pretty much how I saw it...

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06-28-2012, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
That line used the dump and chase all the time. Cole and Pacioretty are perfect for this as they are both big and very fast. Pacioretty used a cross ice dump into Cole's side where Cole could get the puck off of the boards. Once they had possession they would look for Desharnais who could then work his magic. Many of Cole's breakaways and net drives came from high dumps where he could go around the defender and retrieve the puck above the circles.
I get what you're saying, but it wasn't not your typical dump and chase. It was mostly about speed and not much about separating the defender from the puck. Either way, I think that line's success didn't come from the system, but mostly because of the chemistry they had and the situations they were put in. Besides, I'm not sure Martin's system and Therrien's system will be THAT different.

To be honest, systems are heavily overrated in this board.

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06-28-2012, 09:34 AM
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Kirk Muller
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Do people believe that their is simply one universal system for an entire team. Maybe defensively but in the offensive zone and entering the zone, lines tend to go to there strengths. Ie, its rare you have 4th line the carries the puck in. There is also a bit difference in chip and chase like that line did and dump and chase.

I just dont see an issue. A bad coach would be one that would tell all his lines to use a certain system if it didnt work for puck retrieval.

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06-28-2012, 09:39 AM
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I agree that line was more effective chipping and chassing, Cole's just so good at it that I can't see Therrien telling them to stop.

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06-28-2012, 09:51 AM
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What was the system carolina used when Cole was there?

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06-28-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
What was the system carolina used when Cole was there?
Pass and tap.

Pass it to Staal and tap Ward in the knee pad for the amazing save.

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06-28-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Pass and tap.

Pass it to Staal and tap Ward in the knee pad for the amazing save.
Haha good one !!

And to answer another post, if you are dumping the puck, you don't have possession and without possession you cant score goals. We were one of the worst teams in the NHL for goals scored. Thanks Jacko.

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06-28-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Pass and tap.

Pass it to Staal and tap Ward in the knee pad for the amazing save.
Seems like they are calling interference less and less each year.
Cole and Pacioretty were so effective because they chipped the puck past the defender, or had it dumped, and used their speed to grab it.
I've never seen any coach get angry at getting the puck deep and chasing it.
If their production is lowered this year, it will be because the officiating has changed, or injuries.

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06-28-2012, 11:02 AM
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The Desharnais line may see a bit of a drop in production, but I think you'll see a large increase from the 2nd and 3rd lines via depth.

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06-28-2012, 11:27 AM
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Dump and chase is the only way a large majority of NHL forwards can get into the offensive zone. Only a minority has the talent to actually carry the puck in. So I don't see why a coach wouldn't let his player use it, since it's also the safest way to get in the zone without risking a turnover.

The problem comes from the opposite, when a coach tries to force his talented players to dump and chase.

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06-29-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The Desharnais line may see a bit of a drop in production, but I think you'll see a large increase from the 2nd and 3rd lines via depth.
Well I bring two points.
1st- yes the Desharnais line might drop in production but that would be beacuse finally the 2nd and 3rd line show signs of waking up and the 1st line don't get the first 1 min of every single PP.

2nd- offset point one by, 2nd and 3rd line deserving more attention from the defenders, by spreading out the defenders a bit , that should free up the 1st line for even more good 5 on 5 time. Last year every other team just sent their best defenders against the 1st line because the habs did not have another line.

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06-29-2012, 07:32 AM
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You can use dump and chase when you have quick, big, physical guys who can go in the corners and reek havoc. The DD line was successful doing this.

The problem is dump and chase was employed with our small, unphysical forwards who were unwilling to pay he price adn go into the corners. So, I think Therrien is smart enough to know that chip/dump and chase can only work with certain lines and players.

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06-29-2012, 09:14 AM
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They faced first line opposition playing Jaques Martin's system, which continued largely intact under Cunnyworth. I'm not expecting them to repeat their stellar numbers, but I certainly don't think they got any statistical padding from JM! Therrien comes from the Lemaire school, so I don't exactly expect an offensive outburst but really, you can't get less offensive than Martin-coached hockey. It's like Lemaire without the grit.

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