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WILL Joe Pavelski get traded?

View Poll Results: Pavelski's fate
Traded for a winger 12 15.00%
Play wing 46 57.50%
Center third line 22 27.50%
Voters: 80. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-27-2012, 02:25 PM
  #101
Tealblood
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
There are parts of the Sharks org that was dysfunctional, but Pavelski wasn't one of them. He was pretty successful although I'd say over used on the PK due to lack of options.

I would argue the third lines inability to push the play and the org having no choice but rely on Pavs and Thornton to clean up their mess was a bigger problem than lack of speed on the top six. Pavs and Thornton had too many D zone starts.

Of course there is also the obvious penalty kill issue.

The Sharks would have a much easier time filling both those holes with one player- an effective third line center. This would hopefully take some of the heavy burden off of Pavelski... reducing his short handed time would go a long way. This is what the Sharks attempted to acquire but failed last year.
We had one,malhotra, for a little while, we still got schooled by the much faster blackhawks. Team speed is still a huge issue even if PK is also a big one.

The third line wasn't the only line that had issues pushing the play though. That's where speed comes in handy. In the end the top two lines are playing most of the game so you can't just blame the third line.

I'd rather fix our top 6 speed and then get a better penalty killer on the 3rd line.

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06-27-2012, 02:27 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by glasgow26 View Post


Sorry, but you are the biggest homer on Earth if you think Pavelski holds more value than Ryan. Ryan is two years younger, has scored 30+ goals each of the last four seasons, and is a much more dynamic player in the offensive zone. He's fast, big, skilled and physical, and his cap hit is very reasonable. I'd do Pavelski for Ryan in a heartbeat. Hell, I'd throw in Demers and a pick too. And your argument that Pavelski is more valuable to the Ducks than Ryan is to us makes absolutely no sense...a fast goal-scoring winger like Ryan is exactly what this team needs. The fact that he's young and signed to a good contract makes him even more valuable.
I've tried explaining this to him. He IS the biggest homer on earth.

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06-27-2012, 02:48 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
You have it backwards. Even if you think Ryan is more valuable to Pavelski, which I think is totally wrong, the Ducks need Pavelski a heck of a lot more than the Sharks need Ryan. The Ducks would need to add assets to Ryan in order to acquire Pavelski, plus Wilson would make sure that the trade was imbalanced.
Pavs is more valuable to us than Ryan is to the Ducks. Sure.

But Ryan will not be made available for a Pavs/Ryan swap. We WILL need to add to get Ryan. I guarantee other teams will offer a lot more than that.

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06-27-2012, 02:50 PM
  #104
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It's a moot point anyway. They won't trade Ryan to a division rival, and I'm sure DW called and Murray asked for Couture.

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06-27-2012, 04:23 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by glasgow26 View Post


Sorry, but you are the biggest homer on Earth if you think Pavelski holds more value than Ryan. Ryan is two years younger, has scored 30+ goals each of the last four seasons, and is a much more dynamic player in the offensive zone. He's fast, big, skilled and physical, and his cap hit is very reasonable. I'd do Pavelski for Ryan in a heartbeat. Hell, I'd throw in Demers and a pick too. And your argument that Pavelski is more valuable to the Ducks than Ryan is to us makes absolutely no sense...a fast goal-scoring winger like Ryan is exactly what this team needs. The fact that he's young and signed to a good contract makes him even more valuable.
You and others are arguing different points with WA. He is talking about value to the team, not contract value. Ryan is far more dynamic and will score more. There are a few like Pavelski and their contracts have generally reflected their lack of dynamism. However, their utility to the team puts them at a price beyond rubies while it doesn't do much for their contracts relative to the dynamic players. First, Drury, then Callahan and Pavelski. They have huge effects on team results. Some GMs get this fine point, many don't. Some teams over-rely on dynamic players who can't deliver when the chips are down while the Plain Jane's find a way to deliver even if it isn't on the scoresheet. IMO, the two types are closer in value than their contract value would suggest. The question could be "Who is more valuable to the Rags, Gaborik or Callahan?" I'd take Callahan seven days a week.

I think Ryan's attributes will garner a larger contract than Pavelski's, but there is an argument to be had as to who is more valuable to his team.

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06-27-2012, 11:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Pavs is more valuable to us than Ryan is to the Ducks. Sure.

But Ryan will not be made available for a Pavs/Ryan swap. We WILL need to add to get Ryan. I guarantee other teams will offer a lot more than that.
What exactly would Ryan solve for the Sharks? Ryan would be of little help on the penalty kill, at least there would be no way he could fill Pavelski's shoes, and probably wouldn't be used on the third line, so he couldn't help the third line push the play. And worse of all the Three Amigos Marleau, Pavleski, and Thornton wouldn't be there to bail the third line out.

Here is a nifty little sight that summarizes comparisons. To be honest it does have limits in its interpretation. But to over simplify Thornton and Pavelski together GOOD Pavelski and Thornton apart BAD for both Pavelski and Thornton.

Pavleski and Marealu together Good although Pavs fared better Defensively without Marleau. This probably had to do with how Marleau was being used . Interesting to see the drop off without Marleau isn't as dramatic to both players as was Thornton and Pavelski. This was likely due to the larger sample size

If you want feel free to check out corsi pretty similar stuff

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...5v5&type=goals


Last edited by WantonAbandon: 06-27-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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Old
06-27-2012, 11:15 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
But to over simplify Thornton and Pavelski together GOOD Pavelski and Thornton apart BAD for both Pavelski and Thornton.
I know you've been beating that point to death lately and I've already stated my argument for Pavs to get his own line. I will say I would love to have Pavs stick with Jumbo if we get an elite left wing other than Patty to play on that line. If the Sharks get Parise, pipe dream I know, I think a Parise Jumbo Pavs line would be amazing.

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06-27-2012, 11:34 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
To be honest it does have limits in its interpretation. But to over simplify Thornton and Pavelski together GOOD Pavelski and Thornton apart BAD for both Pavelski and Thornton.
Ofcourse Thornton makes Pavs better. He tends to do that with almost anyone he plays with.

I am not saying that Pavs is not a good player .. or that he is not important to us. But if we need to fix the top-6 speed issue and are NOT ready to move Pavs to the 3rd line then trading him is the only option.

Ryan gives us a top-6 speed and goal scoring ability. He has the intangibles that Pavs does not have. That is what we will be paying for. That and fact that we are the ones looking for the speed upgrade and competing with other teams that are also coveting Ryan.

I really REALLY do not want to trade Pavs. But I really do not know how to fix our top-6 speed issue without doing that.

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06-27-2012, 11:38 PM
  #109
WantonAbandon
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Ofcourse Thornton makes Pavs better. .
Well yeah but that is only half of the story.... Although the minutes apart may be too small to tell for certain.

Pavelski seems to have that effect too although the season before last season may be a better indication of that. Although you can see it last season the sample size without Thornton is small

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06-28-2012, 11:05 AM
  #110
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i dont think pavs' poor skating/speed was really a factor this season. his numbers speak for themselves, and he was positive in ending shifts in the offensive zone.

i too think we should go with three scoring lines, but i could see him living that first line the same as well. clowe and thornton both had slightly down years in terms of goals scored. pavelski/couture had no problems maintaining or improving, and marleau did enough. so to me if you can add 10 goals to clowes position, that is where you see the biggest improvement. plus a full season of havlat, and you see a different team.

unless galiardi/wingels step up we will still lack a lot of depth scoring though, and i think thats why there is a call for pavs to center the third line.

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