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Old
06-28-2012, 11:36 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Was it Gordie Clark who said just wait until this kid (McIlrath) is 22 years old? Dylan just turned 20...people need to be a little more patient with draft picks.
People need to get over where he was drafted and that Tarasenko was available. We were not going BPA in that draft. We saw a long standing organizational weakness and a kid available in that draft who is somewhat unique. We took him. Let him develop. If he doesn't turn into a 2nd/3rd paing defenseman who can clear the crease, make forwards pay a big price for attacking our zone, with solid shut down skills then the pick was a mistake without regard to what Tarasenko or anyone else turns out to be.

A kid his size will likely need at least three more years to approach his potential physically and then a couple more years of seasoning to reach his playing potential. Patience is definitely in order. The kid appears to have great character and is moving towards the upside of his potential. Let it breathe.

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06-28-2012, 11:41 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
ill chime in.

dylans size and skating are impressive for such a big bruising player. hes an imposing, intimidating figure on the ice. until you stand next to him on skates, you dont really realize his largeness. he hits to hurt. and he can flat out bring it. dude can fight. he will hurt you if he catches you on the beak.

on top of all that, hes an entirely solid guy and a future team leader/captain. by all accounts, hes a solid person and that does make a difference.

having said all that, my concern is pretty simple. alot of what i just wrote could be about any number of lower round pick/prospects in that years draft and also a few free agents. all those things are nice but they arent true "hockey talent". in other words, what dylan brings was available at other than the 10th overall pick in that draft. there were other guys who had similar skill sets taken below dylan.

and on top of that, and perhaps more importantly, there were other players still available at the time he was chosen that were more ready, more talented, and less long term project. they were in a word, safer.

dylans hockey sense or "hockey iq" isnt off the charts and in fact, it continues to be a work in progress. those who have watched him the last few years are impressed with his overall play and general steady improvement but his overall on ice effectiveness continues to be so-so. his decision making needs to improve.

hes got enormous potential to be a shut down guy but he is also just as likely to be a bottom pair guy who adds a dimension that all teams need but at 10-12 minutes per night, is that enough ?

was he the right pick at 10 ? time will tell but there is room in this organization or any for that matter, for a guy like dylan mcilrath. he will play.

then again, theres a ton of room for vlad tarasenko too.....
Get out of my head ODC !



VT in round one, Alex Petrovic round two.

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06-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #278
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I guess we will have to see how Christian Thomas works out. I still think he has 30 goal potential in the NHL. If that works out, what is the difference?

30-35 goal guy in the 1st round + bruiser in the 2nd or bruiser in the 1st + 30 goal guy in the 2nd?

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06-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
ill chime in.

dylans size and skating are impressive for such a big bruising player. hes an imposing, intimidating figure on the ice. until you stand next to him on skates, you dont really realize his largeness. he hits to hurt. and he can flat out bring it. dude can fight. he will hurt you if he catches you on the beak.

on top of all that, hes an entirely solid guy and a future team leader/captain. by all accounts, hes a solid person and that does make a difference.

having said all that, my concern is pretty simple. alot of what i just wrote could be about any number of lower round pick/prospects in that years draft and also a few free agents. all those things are nice but they arent true "hockey talent". in other words, what dylan brings was available at other than the 10th overall pick in that draft. there were other guys who had similar skill sets taken below dylan.

and on top of that, and perhaps more importantly, there were other players still available at the time he was chosen that were more ready, more talented, and less long term project. they were in a word, safer.

dylans hockey sense or "hockey iq" isnt off the charts and in fact, it continues to be a work in progress. those who have watched him the last few years are impressed with his overall play and general steady improvement but his overall on ice effectiveness continues to be so-so. his decision making needs to improve.

hes got enormous potential to be a shut down guy but he is also just as likely to be a bottom pair guy who adds a dimension that all teams need but at 10-12 minutes per night, is that enough ?

was he the right pick at 10 ? time will tell but there is room in this organization or any for that matter, for a guy like dylan mcilrath. he will play.

then again, theres a ton of room for vlad tarasenko too.....
im not positive, but the number of NHL defenseman who can physically scare the crap out of team with his hitting, protect teammates as a legit heavyweight, and play a regular shift can probably be counted on 1 hand....and frankly very few players do all 3. Chara has ragdolled a bunch of ppl so nobody ever wants to fight him....Weber i havent seen fight much, but in what ive seen, hes looked like an average fighter...i could be wrong. Phaneuf is probably the best example of all 3, except hes more of a middleweight than a heavyweight since he usually wont fight the big boys, but will drop the gloves when asked upon by the average fighter. Carkner is a helluva fighter, but he CAN NOT be counted upon to take regular shifts...same with John Scott. Jeff Beukeboom was a freak of nature...legit top 4 defenseman, legit monster hitter, legit fighter. That combination is very, very unique, don't be fooled. Just because so many guys are taken who are supposed to have those aspects doesnt mean it comes to fruition...players like these are damn near impossible to find.

I hated the McIlrath pick, I still do, because its an enormous gamble with such a high pick. But if he turns out to be a guy who can hit like he can hit, fight like he can fight, AND play regular minutes without you being on pins and needles (E.G. Garnet Exelby), it would be a homerun of a pick.

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06-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #280
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yeah that is one thing...sure there are big strong defensemen who can fight taken in the later rounds of every draft, but even some who are decent skaters, but the number of them who are legitimate defensemen who can play more than a soft 3rd pairing role is pretty small.

I think the Rangers are gambling that McIlrath has the additional tools to be more than just a soft minutes 3rd pairing guy who only plays to beat up other people. Hell, even most "physical" third pairing defensemen aren't terribly physical because they can't skate well enough to really line up hits. McIlrath has the tools to be better than that but it's a real tossup still whether that pans out.

I think some pro coaching and playing against better competition will actually be a real big plus for him this year and I'm interested to see how he handles it

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06-28-2012, 12:18 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
im not positive, but the number of NHL defenseman who can physically scare the crap out of team with his hitting, protect teammates as a legit heavyweight, and play a regular shift can probably be counted on 1 hand....and frankly very few players do all 3. Chara has ragdolled a bunch of ppl so nobody ever wants to fight him....Weber i havent seen fight much, but in what ive seen, hes looked like an average fighter...i could be wrong. Phaneuf is probably the best example of all 3, except hes more of a middleweight than a heavyweight since he usually wont fight the big boys, but will drop the gloves when asked upon by the average fighter. Carkner is a helluva fighter, but he CAN NOT be counted upon to take regular shifts...same with John Scott. Jeff Beukeboom was a freak of nature...legit top 4 defenseman, legit monster hitter, legit fighter. That combination is very, very unique, don't be fooled. Just because so many guys are taken who are supposed to have those aspects doesnt mean it comes to fruition...players like these are damn near impossible to find.

I hated the McIlrath pick, I still do, because its an enormous gamble with such a high pick. But if he turns out to be a guy who can hit like he can hit, fight like he can fight, AND play regular minutes without you being on pins and needles (E.G. Garnet Exelby), it would be a homerun of a pick.
Good comments, agreed on alot of points here.

Another point I'm glad you brought up is the fact that theres a reason a Beukeboom hasnt been around for awhile - they are also very very rare. If they exist no one wants to let them go. DM was a risk, risks are fine by me if you have some form of depth, but a risk towards natural skill over physical ability is usual what I'd favor.

Maybe we are seeing a new mold of Dmen like DM. He can skate, can be physical, throw hard hits, but ability to work with the puck on both sides of the puck is pretty crucial and sought after in todays game, no? Look around, most teams would love big mobile Dmen who punish, but who ends up on top pairings? Smooth reliable all arounders who can handle the puck. And the lot of them do play mean, just clean, no goon factor.

Dan Girardi is known as just an okay puckhandler. That's crazy to me, he may not rush it up the ice but his ability to maneuver the puck out of harms way is vital to his/team success. He plays the body very well, but he's not what you call a beast. Is that really whats needed anyway? Look at LA, solid puckmovers top 4, hard hitting smart positional guys on the bottom pair.

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06-28-2012, 12:24 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I think some pro coaching and playing against better competition will actually be a real big plus for him this year and I'm interested to see how he handles it
Absolutely.

I'm ready to throw out all of his days as a Junior and get to work. I believe in the Pro coaching that brought along alot of steady ones lately, can't ignore the patience some have received as well.

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06-28-2012, 12:42 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
...legit top 4 defenseman, legit monster hitter, legit fighter. That combination is very, very unique, don't be fooled. Just because so many guys are taken who are supposed to have those aspects doesnt mean it comes to fruition...players like these are damn near impossible to find.
From the people I speak with, that is what it comes down to right there.

A gamble? Oh yeah. Big, Big gamble. But well, well worth it to get the type of player who comes along but very rarely.

The other advantage that the Rangers have now that was not as clear when the pick was made was how well the current D would develop. The emergence of McDonagh and Girardi in addition to Staal as elite shut down defensemen gives the Rangers the time to season McIlrath properly.

I see tremendous upside here with limited down side.

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06-28-2012, 12:43 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Absolutely.

I'm ready to throw out all of his days as a Junior and get to work. I believe in the Pro coaching that brought along alot of steady ones lately, can't ignore the patience some have received as well.
I really think pro coaching can do a lot for a guy who has the right mind and attitude for it. We'll see if McIlrath is one of those guys...

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06-28-2012, 12:43 PM
  #285
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Any actual info on dev camp today?

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06-28-2012, 12:44 PM
  #286
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Any actual info on dev camp today?
http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/rangerrants/

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06-28-2012, 12:55 PM
  #287
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It just seems odd that its to the point where these posts come off hoping the poor kid fails so they could say "I told ya so" and make themselves out to be scouting gurus. I understand that he was picked really high and there were other players on the board who many think would have been the better pick, but he hasn't seemed like a horrible pick. If he would have really regressed in development maybe we would have a problem, but he seems to be doing quite well and was quite good in camp last year.
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Just a guess but I'd say it's the same reason why they would want to trade Gaborik or MDZ every season. Because Ranger fans in general are a fickle bunch. Some people still have butt-hurt from us not taking Cam "can't play defense but had one decent season" Fowler (heck, even he could bounce back like MDZ did). Because Ranger fans in general are an impatient lot. The concept of waiting 4 years for a d-man to develop and mature is fundamentally offensive. If he can't make the team right away like MDZ and Staal did, he's an automatic bust/failure. because on the internet, we can be as loud and obnoxious as we want and even thought Leslie is the only one with any first-hand observations, we can be total d-bags and say **** like we already know everything. because their sense of worth is the summations of "i told you so's" that they can rack up?
I love these posts, and the implication they make. That, basically, we should refrain from giving any dissenting opinion here, no matter how much data or analysis is provided to support it, because all it means is that we're **********, "butt-hurt," or hoping players fail. In general, that any doubting of the decisons made by the team makes us inferior fans who put our standing on the message board above the success of the team.



The reasons for people being upset to this day about the McIlrath selection are as clear today as they were on draft day.

1) This team has not drafted or developed a legitimate first line forward in over 30 years. This team's biggest issue currently is goalscoring. This team currently has one of the best groups of defensemen in the league. The pick used to draft McIlrath was the highest pick the team had had in years, and is the highest pick the team will likely have for years forward. There was a top goalscoring forward prospect available, a top 5 talent, one who is going to be making his NHL debut next season. What is it that we're spending this off-season searching for? What is it that this team couldn't do in the playoffs? Score goals. What is that our prospect pool still lacks to this day? A legit first line sniper.

2) As I've posted before, tall defensemen who dominate in their teenage years because of their physical superiority in relation to their peers are an extremely risky proposition in the professional game.

To quote myself from about half a year ago:

Quote:
Let's look at defensemen 6'4" and above drafted in the first round. The 2007 blueline class is just starting to really come into the league now, so let's look at 2006 and the years prior.

2006: Erik Johnson, Ty Wishart
2005: Marc Staal, Sasha Pokulok, Matt Pelech, Joe Finley, Vladimir Mihalik
2004: Boris Valabik, Jeff Schultz, Andy Rogers
2003: Braydon Coburn, Brent Burns
2002: Jay Bouwmeester, Ryan Whitney, Anton Babchuk
2001: Mike Komisarek, Shaone Morrisonn
2000: n/a
1999: Branislav Mezei, Kristian Kudroc
1998: Bryan Allen, Mathieu Biron, Christian Backman, Jiri Fischer
1997: Paul Mara, Nikos Tselios
1996: Jon Aitken, Dan Focht, Mario Larocque, Matt Descoteaux
1995: Kyle McLaren, Jeff Ware, Max Kuznetsov
1994: Wade Belak, Jeff Kealty Yan Golubovsky

Of these 32 players, 6-7 have gone on to become players of significance in the NHL. Of these 6 or 7, some are either primarily offensive defensemen, or defensemen who make nearly as big an impact offensively as they do defensively (Erik Johnson, Bouwmeester, Whitney, Burns). Marc Staal and Braydon Coburn are the only players in this group who are good or great defensive defensemen. The rest of these guys are either run of the mill role players who have never lived up to their "potential" (Mara, Schultz, McLaren, Allen, Komisarek, Morrisonn) or are minor leaguers/enforcers who barely play. Poor Jiri Fischer seemed like he was on his way to being a decent player, so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I see no problem taking a chance on big guys. Surely, if you can ice a roster with some big guys who also happen to be really good players, that gives you an advantage. But it's one thing to chance it in the middle, late, or even 2nd rounds. It's another to use a lottery pick on such a player. And even so, I'd note that in that same span, 1994-2006, only the following players who were not drafted in the first round but fit the defenseman, 6'4" or taller, criteria have made it big in the NHL: Sheldon Souray (1994) Zdeno Chara, Pavel Kubina (1996), and Dustin Byfuglien, if you can even call him a defenseman. The next best player on that list would be Dallas' Niklas Grossman.
Note Branislav Mezei and Kristian Kudroc and the quotes from Gordie Clark that Bluenote13 posted a couple of hours ago.

We had a rare opportunity to address a major organizational need that is extremely difficult to fill, a need that has gone unfilled for DECADES. We used that opportunity to draft a player who is highly unlikely to be anything more than a role player.

Yeah, I'm "butt-hurt" that the team may have made a massive blunder that could have seriously changed this team's fortunes. I guess I'm the crazy one in thinking that it would be HUGE if we had a 21-year-old potential 30-35 goalscorer coming aboard this season on an entry level contract. A kid who is considered today to be one of the top prospects in the world. The #3 ranked prospect in the world according to this website, for whatever that is worth, by the way.

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06-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I love these posts, and the implication they make. That, basically, we should refrain from giving any dissenting opinion here, no matter how much data or analysis is provided to support it, because all it means is that we're **********, "butt-hurt," or hoping players fail. In general, that any doubting of the decisons made by the team makes us inferior fans who put our standing on the message board above the success of the team.



The reasons for people being upset to this day about the McIlrath selection are as clear today as they were on draft day.

1) This team has not drafted or developed a legitimate first line forward in over 30 years. This team's biggest issue currently is goalscoring. This team currently has one of the best groups of defensemen in the league. The pick used to draft McIlrath was the highest pick the team had had in years, and is the highest pick the team will likely have for years forward. There was a top goalscoring forward prospect available, a top 5 talent, one who is going to be making his NHL debut next season. What is it that we're spending this off-season searching for? What is it that this team couldn't do in the playoffs? Score goals. What is that our prospect pool still lacks to this day? A legit first line sniper.

2) As I've posted before, tall defensemen who dominate in their teenage years because of their physical superiority in relation to their peers are an extremely risky proposition in the professional game.

To quote myself from about half a year ago:



Note Branislav Mezei and Kristian Kudroc and the quotes from Gordie Clark that Bluenote13 posted a couple of hours ago.

We had a rare opportunity to address a major organizational need that is extremely difficult to fill, a need that has gone unfilled for DECADES. We used that opportunity to draft a player who is highly unlikely to be anything more than a role player.

Yeah, I'm "butt-hurt" that the team may have made a massive blunder that could have seriously changed this team's fortunes. I guess I'm the crazy one in thinking that it would be HUGE if we had a 21-year-old potential 30-35 goalscorer coming aboard this season on an entry level contract. A kid who is considered today to be one of the top prospects in the world. The #3 ranked prospect in the world according to this website, for whatever that is worth, by the way.
Sigh. Exactly this. Not sure why it's so hard to understand.

And, for the record, feeling this way is not equivalent to hoping that McIlrath fails. Now that he's our guy, any real fan is hoping he succeeds. (Indeed, I'm really hoping he becomes the second coming of Chara/Pronger, because otherwise I may be regretting what might have been for years to come...)

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06-28-2012, 01:44 PM
  #289
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it should be banable to start *****ing about Tarasenko whenever McIlrath is talked about. Would I rather have Tarasenko? Yes. I wanted him drafted. But there's no point in crying about it 2 years after the fact.

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06-28-2012, 01:47 PM
  #290
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it should be banable to start *****ing about Tarasenko whenever McIlrath is talked about. Would I rather have Tarasenko? Yes. I wanted him drafted. But there's no point in crying about it 2 years after the fact.
You're thinking of Fowler, don't ever mention the F word

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06-28-2012, 01:50 PM
  #291
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I am hoping McI turns out to be a Beukeboom type player. Excuse me by type, I mean he can regularly play as a top pair guy.

The reality is he may never be a top pair guy, which is ok, as the game has changed a bit and this team doesn't really need him to be. If he can play JB's game as a 3-6 guy and chew up minutes, the Rangers have a solid pick on their hands.

That said, I hope you younger guys realize that Beukeboom wasn't a solid NHL player until he was at least 23-24 y/o. It takes players of that style quite awhile to grow into their bodies and be completely accustomed to the way they need to play.

Edit: I don't think DM will be a generational type player like Chara or Pronger, he doesn't appear to have the offensive chops to be considered at that level. However, even those 2 took a helluva a long time to develop and they certainly didn't become top tier players with the teams that originally drafted them.


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06-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #292
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it should be banable to start *****ing about Tarasenko whenever McIlrath is talked about. Would I rather have Tarasenko? Yes. I wanted him drafted. But there's no point in crying about it 2 years after the fact.
you think its bad now....wait till he snipes one over hanks shoulder or scores 20+ his rookie year. then the stuff will really hit the fan.

look, jessiman is still relevant. it still hurts. but are we to believe that mentioning it is somehow a punishable offense ?

and for the record, if big mac goes boom and turns into the monster we all hope he will be, that does not mean that watching tarasenko score 30 for the blues will hurt any less.

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06-28-2012, 02:18 PM
  #293
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you think its bad now....wait till he snipes one over hanks shoulder or scores 20+ his rookie year. then the stuff will really hit the fan.

look, jessiman is still relevant. it still hurts. but are we to believe that mentioning it is somehow a punishable offense ?

and for the record, if big mac goes boom and turns into the monster we all hope he will be, that does not mean that watching tarasenko score 30 for the blues will hurt any less.
Everyone seem to think that Tarasenko is a lock for scoring thirty goals every season and the dude hasn't even played a game in the Nhl yet. It's easy to say that it's possible that McIlrath busts but noone seems to think the same is possible for Tarasenko.

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06-28-2012, 02:28 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Any actual info on dev camp today?
Big news out of camp today is that McIlrath was drafted ahead of Tarasenko and Fowler. All of the players were forced to wear the number 10 on their jerseys with "Giant Mistake" lettered on their backs.

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06-28-2012, 02:48 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I love these posts, and the implication they make. That, basically, we should refrain from giving any dissenting opinion here, no matter how much data or analysis is provided to support it, because all it means is that we're **********, "butt-hurt," or hoping players fail. In general, that any doubting of the decisons made by the team makes us inferior fans who put our standing on the message board above the success of the team.



The reasons for people being upset to this day about the McIlrath selection are as clear today as they were on draft day.

1) This team has not drafted or developed a legitimate first line forward in over 30 years. This team's biggest issue currently is goalscoring. This team currently has one of the best groups of defensemen in the league. The pick used to draft McIlrath was the highest pick the team had had in years, and is the highest pick the team will likely have for years forward. There was a top goalscoring forward prospect available, a top 5 talent, one who is going to be making his NHL debut next season. What is it that we're spending this off-season searching for? What is it that this team couldn't do in the playoffs? Score goals. What is that our prospect pool still lacks to this day? A legit first line sniper.

2) As I've posted before, tall defensemen who dominate in their teenage years because of their physical superiority in relation to their peers are an extremely risky proposition in the professional game.

To quote myself from about half a year ago:



Note Branislav Mezei and Kristian Kudroc and the quotes from Gordie Clark that Bluenote13 posted a couple of hours ago.

We had a rare opportunity to address a major organizational need that is extremely difficult to fill, a need that has gone unfilled for DECADES. We used that opportunity to draft a player who is highly unlikely to be anything more than a role player.

Yeah, I'm "butt-hurt" that the team may have made a massive blunder that could have seriously changed this team's fortunes. I guess I'm the crazy one in thinking that it would be HUGE if we had a 21-year-old potential 30-35 goalscorer coming aboard this season on an entry level contract. A kid who is considered today to be one of the top prospects in the world. The #3 ranked prospect in the world according to this website, for whatever that is worth, by the way.
Naw man, your not an inferior fan, and if my post came off as such I'm real sorry as that was not my intention, towards you or anyone else who is not a fan of DM. I've been reading this board for years now and you and a lot of other posters have good stuff to say. Thats why I enjoy this place because I live in San Jose so I don't get to talk Rangers with my friends, just Sharks.

It's just that I can never get any real info on DM. Anytime someone posts something positive or negative about him you have to scroll through 2 pages of talk about how we should have taken Fowler or some forward. I just don't understand why we can't discuss this guys on ice performance without bringing up who was there and where he was drafted.

I'm not completely sold on him being a good player. I've only seen him play a small number of times, and the past Dmen you bring up are very intriguing, as is Bluenotes post about the players Clark drafted that were very similar to DM. He does have positives to his game though and has gotten better every year, which is a good thing.

For the record I wanted Tarasenko, but no sense in getting bothered by it now. There are other things about this team I worry about more.

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06-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #296
kovazub94
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
you think its bad now....wait till he snipes one over hanks shoulder or scores 20+ his rookie year. then the stuff will really hit the fan.

look, jessiman is still relevant. it still hurts. but are we to believe that mentioning it is somehow a punishable offense ?

and for the record, if big mac goes boom and turns into the monster we all hope he will be, that does not mean that watching tarasenko score 30 for the blues will hurt any less.
Oh yes it will, especially if DMac would not let Tarasenko to score against the Ranger and in the process level some hurt on him.

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06-28-2012, 05:37 PM
  #297
McSauer
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Yeah, I'm "butt-hurt" that the team may have made a massive blunder that could have seriously changed this team's fortunes. I guess I'm the crazy one in thinking that it would be HUGE if we had a 21-year-old potential 30-35 goalscorer coming aboard this season on an entry level contract. A kid who is considered today to be one of the top prospects in the world. The #3 ranked prospect in the world according to this website, for whatever that is worth, by the way.
I'm glad you could sneak that in HER NAME IS ROBERTA PAULSON!

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06-28-2012, 06:52 PM
  #298
Staals Eye
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Big news out of camp today is that McIlrath was drafted ahead of Tarasenko and Fowler. All of the players were forced to wear the number 10 on their jerseys with "Giant Mistake" lettered on their backs.
This made me laugh

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06-28-2012, 06:53 PM
  #299
Brian Boyle
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Big news out of camp today is that McIlrath was drafted ahead of Tarasenko and Fowler.
Don't forget Gormley

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06-28-2012, 07:05 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Big news out of camp today is that McIlrath was drafted ahead of Tarasenko and Fowler. All of the players were forced to wear the number 10 on their jerseys with "Giant Mistake" lettered on their backs.
Excellent.

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