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Old
06-28-2012, 01:38 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Do your own work. Bob Murray (Ducks' GM) has openly stated the Flyers were the only team interested in Pronger at that point.
Like I said before, I haven't found Murray say this. I have looked. It would be helpful if someone had the article with him stating this.

Why the **** do all Flyers fan have such a ****** attitude?

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06-28-2012, 01:45 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
The Versteeg trade was a bad trade. he was here for what 2 months and he was dumped for a couple of draft picks which we gave away in another stupid trade.
Never said I hated the Pronger trade. but like I said at the time he was bidding against himself. The one thing i didnt like was one of those 1st rounders not being conditional. Thats the only thing I would argue against even with a healthy Pronger.

Luca Sbisa
1st(2009)
1st(2010) conditional
3rd(2010)
Lupul(salary dump)
for
Pronger

the deal still gets done IMO
Im not trying to create excuses of why it wasn't done like that, but maybe the other first was because the Ducks were taking back Lupul's salary? There is just so much we don't know as fans to make the assumptions that deals can be changed or different at the time of it going down.

Versteeg trade I don't think was bad, but it really just didn't work out at all. He did trade him to Florida for a second and third. That second was thought to be in the 30-40 range, but magically Florida became a good damn team through free agency. Nobody had them making the playoffs.

I have always liked a GM who takes chances to get this team a cup. Some things like Leighton were just dumb, but other moves were successful. It is like that with every GM in this league.

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06-28-2012, 01:49 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Holmgren was bidding against himself for Pronger's services. Its abeen talked about quite a bit around here.
Probably could of made one of those 1st conditional instead of the 3rd.
Holmgren also was bidding against himself for the Versteeg trade. Burke even said no team had even approached them about Versteeg.
The Randy Jones signing falls somewhere in this territory as well, I think. Homer didn't want it to go to arbitration (he wanted to sign Jones to a multi-year deal iirc), so he forked out some extra cash for Jones to sign up. Might have been a good idea if we weren't so close to the cap already...

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06-28-2012, 01:51 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I've heard the Philly media question Homer plenty of times. They aren't as extreme about it as people around here, but they certainly call him out WHEN HE DESERVES IT. If he gives someone $100k "too much" by the standards of the board, no they aren't writing articles about how dumb he is, but they get on him when necessary.



Yeah, I guess it would be better to complain constantly. It's funny that things like trading the picks away makes him a bad GM and hampers the performance of the team and so forth, but when he makes trades that draft picks back no one seems to notice or care. He got a third rounder for the rights to Hamhuis (from a division rival, no less). If he had simply traded that pick for nothing, he would have KILLED around here. But he gets the pick for nothing and that doesn't even matter. During Homer's tenure he has traded away 30 picks, but has also received 23 in return. Here's the breakdown:

Outgoing:
Five firsts
Eight seconds
Nine thirds
Five fourths (one being conditional)
Two fifth
One Sixth

Incoming:
Three first
Three seconds
Nine thirds
Three fourths
One Sixth
Three seventh
One conditional pick that I could figure out what round that actual went to

While he has traded away more picks, two of the firsts went to Pronger, which I think the general consensus around here is that this was a good trade, another went to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen's rights, another solid move. The biggest discrepancy is second rounders, and while some were certainly overpayments, he also used one to get Grossman and one to get Meszaros. Third rounders he broke even on. Fourth through seventh round he traded away one more than he received. So I guess that means he really did screw us over. WE COULD HAVE HAD SEVEN MORE DRAFT PICKS OVER THE LAST SEVEN OR WHATEVER YEARS!!! HE IS SO DUMB!!!! Come on.

The guy has certainly made some head-scratchers regarding trading picks. But those picks have not had the crippling effect on this team that people make it to be, especially considering the players he got back in some of those deals, and the picks he got back in other deals. Get over it.
You are over simplifying things.

Since 2007 the Flyers owned nine first round picks and nine 2nd round picks. Holmgren made a selection with 4 of the first rounders (44%). Only two of them remain with the organization. Couturier and Laughton. He has only made a selection with two of his nine 2nd round picks (22%). Stolarz is the only one that remains with the organization.

The first and second rounds of the draft is your best chance to acquire cheap talent. In a salary cap league getting more out of your dollars is imperative to win. When you look at Cup winners like Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh they were all loaded with talent they drafted. I don't know why anyone lauds Holmgren for ignoring the very thing that leads to success. Holmgren's builds good teams, but his impatience is the reason why they aren't great.

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06-28-2012, 01:52 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
You are over simplifying things.

Since 2007 the Flyers owned nine first round picks and nine 2nd round picks. Holmgren made a selection with 4 of the first rounders (44%). Only two of them remain with the organization. Couturier and Laughton. He has only made a selection with two of his nine 2nd round picks (22%). Stolarz is the only one that remains with the organization.

The first and second rounds of the draft is your best chance to acquire cheap talent. In a salary cap league getting more out of your dollars is imperative to win. When you look at Cup winners like Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh they were all loaded with talent they drafted. I don't know why anyone lauds Holmgren for ignoring the very thing that leads to success. Holmgren's builds good teams, but his impatience is the reason why they aren't great.
No it's not.

Case in point: Matt Read

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06-28-2012, 01:54 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
No it's not.

Case in point: Matt Read
You are going to point out an exception to the rule?

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06-28-2012, 01:54 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
You are over simplifying things.

Since 2007 the Flyers owned nine first round picks and nine 2nd round picks. Holmgren made a selection with 4 of the first rounders (44%). Only two of them remain with the organization. Couturier and Laughton. He has only made a selection with two of his nine 2nd round picks (22%). Stolarz is the only one that remains with the organization.

The first and second rounds of the draft is your best chance to acquire cheap talent. In a salary cap league getting more out of your dollars is imperative to win. When you look at Cup winners like Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburgh they were all loaded with talent they drafted. I don't know why anyone lauds Holmgren for ignoring the very thing that leads to success. Holmgren's builds good teams, but his impatience is the reason why they aren't great.
I understand this frustration very well. That is his biggest problem. But the funny thing is MAJORITY OF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ****ING PATIENCE. Most would still be around here whining about something. Not saying that everybody should be in perfect harmony but its the same posters beating the same dead horse over something that wasn't even franchise crippling or will stop this team from competing. It's just comical.

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06-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
No it's not.

Case in point: Matt Read
It is typically hard to find undrafted guys ready to make the jump into the NHL, but that is one part of the game that Homer excels at. Even his harshest critics can see that. Matt Read was a great pickup and signings like that are one of the reasons why Homer can trade picks more often than some other teams.

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06-28-2012, 02:06 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
I understand this frustration very well. That is his biggest problem. But the funny thing is MAJORITY OF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY ****ING PATIENCE. Most would still be around here whining about something. Not saying that everybody should be in perfect harmony but its the same posters beating the same dead horse over something that wasn't even franchise crippling or will stop this team from competing. It's just comical.
Just because a move isn't franchise crippling doesn't mean it doesn't come back to haunt them in some way. Say Briere is overpaid by $2M at this point. $2M may not afford a lot and it isn't franchise crippling, but it could be the difference between Dennis Wideman and Ryan Suter. That's the effect of overpaying just 1 player. If you have several overpaid players on the roster (Briere, Bryzgalov, Shelley, Luke Schenn, etc)then you could be missing out on $5-6M player. You're not crippling yourself, but you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible.

Trading picks away also hurts in the same way. Cheaper contracts help you afford more talent. Look at the effect of Giroux's contract. Giroux @ 3.75 M helps you afford more talent than if you paid him $7-8M he might be worth on the open market. If they were able to develop defenders they wouldn't be paying over $8M for their 3rd pairing (Schenn, Meszaros). Instead, you'd have more money for a Parise or Suter.

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06-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Jaydepps View Post
It is typically hard to find undrafted guys ready to make the jump into the NHL, but that is one part of the game that Homer excels at. Even his harshest critics can see that. Matt Read was a great pickup and signings like that are one of the reasons why Homer can trade picks more often than some other teams.
It was a great a pickup, but Holmgren signs multiple college FA's every year. Read is the only one to have an actual impact. Most of the Flyers 1st round picks go on to contribute. Since 2000 Woywitka was their only first rounder to bust. Signing college FA's doesn't come close to replacing the picks he gives away.

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06-28-2012, 02:10 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Just because a move isn't franchise crippling doesn't mean it doesn't come back to haunt them in some way. Say Briere is overpaid by $2M at this point. $2M may not afford a lot and it isn't franchise crippling, but it could be the difference between Dennis Wideman and Ryan Suter. That's the effect of overpaying just 1 player. If you have several overpaid players on the roster (Briere, Bryzgalov, Shelley, Luke Schenn, etc)then you could be missing out on $5-6M player. You're not crippling yourself, but you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible.

Trading picks away also hurts in the same way. Cheaper contracts help you afford more talent. Look at the effect of Giroux's contract. Giroux @ 3.75 M helps you afford more talent than if you paid him $7-8M he might be worth on the open market. If they were able to develop defenders they wouldn't be paying over $8M for their 3rd pairing (Schenn, Meszaros). Instead, you'd have more money for a Parise or Suter.
Name one team with 100% perfect contracts.


You're judging Holmgren using hindsight. You're comparing Holmgren to perfection. No GM in the league lives up to your expectations of Holmgren.

Quote:
If you have several overpaid players on the roster (Briere, Bryzgalov, Shelley, Luke Schenn, etc)then you could be missing out on $5-6M player. You're not crippling yourself, but you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible.
This is especially funny. Briere and Bryzgalov WERE 5-6mil players in their UFA classes


I bet if we sign Suter, and he busts in Philly, you'll complain about him in 3 years for being overpaid-- because that's exactly what you're doing with Briere

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06-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
No it's not.

Case in point: Matt Read
I want you to tally up the number of players who entered the NHL as college free agents versus the number who entered the NHL as draftees. The numbers are not going to help your case at all. I would be 80-90% of the players on NHL rosters at any given point in time are drafted in the first 2 rounds.

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06-28-2012, 02:14 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
It was a great a pickup, but Holmgren signs multiple college FA's every year. Read is the only one to have an actual impact. Most of the Flyers 1st round picks go on to contribute. Since 2000 Woywitka was their only first rounder to bust. Signing college FA's doesn't come close to replacing the picks he gives away.
College UFAs shouldn't be expected to replace 1st rounders, but I certainly believe Homer has done an excellent job supplementing 2nd round to later picks signing various guys who are making an impact in the NHL or are looking like they will make an impact soon.

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06-28-2012, 02:16 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Just because a move isn't franchise crippling doesn't mean it doesn't come back to haunt them in some way. Say Briere is overpaid by $2M at this point. $2M may not afford a lot and it isn't franchise crippling, but it could be the difference between Dennis Wideman and Ryan Suter. That's the effect of overpaying just 1 player. If you have several overpaid players on the roster (Briere, Bryzgalov, Shelley, Luke Schenn, etc)then you could be missing out on $5-6M player. You're not crippling yourself, but you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible.

Trading picks away also hurts in the same way. Cheaper contracts help you afford more talent. Look at the effect of Giroux's contract. Giroux @ 3.75 M helps you afford more talent than if you paid him $7-8M he might be worth on the open market. If they were able to develop defenders they wouldn't be paying over $8M for their 3rd pairing (Schenn, Meszaros). Instead, you'd have more money for a Parise or Suter.
Sure Briere might be overpaid. Playoff clutch play, leadership, and mentoring our younger play lets him get away with that. His contract is fine. We could sign a Ryan Suter right now. So Why is this even being talked about? More contracts will be coming off the books in years as our young cheap roster players will need raises. So what you are saying is an terrible example.

Trading away picks. I halfway agree. There are times when i felt he should of not traded away picks but also when it was justified in bringing back a solid return that benefited the team NOW. So the prospect pool got stocked up this year are you happy? Defenseman are getting paid more then they did in the past couple of years because of the market and cap going up. So it is pretty common more teams now today pay more for their bottom pairing. When are people going to understand this?

Everything you said was pointless and inaccurate. The only thing i agree with is the lack of ability to develop defenseman which is an organizational problem. Other then that you are trying to expect this guy to be this perfect GM with no flaws. It doesn't exist.

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06-28-2012, 02:24 PM
  #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I want you to tally up the number of players who entered the NHL as college free agents versus the number who entered the NHL as draftees. The numbers are not going to help your case at all. I would be 80-90% of the players on NHL rosters at any given point in time are drafted in the first 2 rounds.
Just to put it into perspective during our playoff run last year 8 of the players were not drafted in the first 2 rounds.

New Jersey had 12 players on their roster not picked during the first 2 rounds.

LA on the other hand had 9 players on their roster not picked during the first 2 rounds.

I think 80-90% of the league being first or second round picks is a bit of an exaggeration.

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06-28-2012, 02:28 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
You are going to point out an exception to the rule?
Trades are another way to get cheap talent.

Case in point:

Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, Luke Schenn and Wayne Simmonds

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06-28-2012, 02:35 PM
  #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Trades are another way to get cheap talent.

Case in point:

Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, Luke Schenn and Wayne Simmonds
All first and second rounders, acquired by trading away two first rounders.

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06-28-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Like I said before, I haven't found Murray say this. I have looked. It would be helpful if someone had the article with him stating this.

Why the **** do all Flyers fan have such a ****** attitude?
I reread my post to you. It came off way more confrontational than I had intended. Not the first time I've done that unfortunately. I wasn't trying to be a dick though.

Google bob murray and paul homgren and "chris progner trade". I'm sure if you dig a bit you'll find the quote. It was from a print article, not a live interview or anything. Basically he said other teams had made offers once they were told Pronger was available, but nobody even came close to what Holmgren offered. I remember hearing at the time that Holmgren uppped his offer once also, though that I wouldn't swear to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaydepps View Post
Just to put it into perspective during our playoff run last year 8 of the players were not drafted in the first 2 rounds.

New Jersey had 12 players on their roster not picked during the first 2 rounds.

LA on the other hand had 9 players on their roster not picked during the first 2 rounds.

I think 80-90% of the league being first or second round picks is a bit of an exaggeration.
You're probably right. The essential point there though is that the first and second round are far and away the best way to bring in new young talent into your organization. Not the only, but certainly the best. I don't think anyone but Snotbubbles is debating that.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 06-28-2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: had to fix a name
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06-28-2012, 02:44 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
All first and second rounders, acquired by trading away two first rounders.
Yes but the point is you don't need to use YOUR 1st rounder to acquire 1st round talent.

EDIT: I think a better way to put it, is using your own 1st rounder isn't the only way to acquire a 1st round talent. Not sure if that makes sense.

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06-28-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Yes but the point is you don't need to use YOUR 1st rounder to acquire 1st round talent.

EDIT: I think a better way to put it, is using your own 1st rounder isn't the only way to acquire a 1st round talent. Not sure if that makes sense.
Libertine said that the first and second rounds were the best way, not the only way. no one ever said there was no other way to bring in new talent.

Also for what it's worth, if you're trading two players you drafted in the first round to get other players, you're still using your first round picks to acquire new talent to a degree, in that had you never had the opportunity to draft them you wouldn't have been able to trade them.

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06-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Name one team with 100% perfect contracts.


You're judging Holmgren using hindsight. You're comparing Holmgren to perfection. No GM in the league lives up to your expectations of Holmgren.


This is especially funny. Briere and Bryzgalov WERE 5-6mil players in their UFA classes


I bet if we sign Suter, and he busts in Philly, you'll complain about him in 3 years for being overpaid-- because that's exactly what you're doing with Briere
I agree no one has 100% perfect contracts, but supplementing less than ideal contracts with players on their entry level deals is key to maximizing his cap dollars.

Briere was worth that on the open market, but is it worth it to sign a $6.5M center when you have Richards, Carter, and Umberger as your centers? I never thought it made sense, but Holmgren did not have the patience to let his players develop. Are the Oilers going to run out to find a 30-40 goal scorer because Hall and Yakupov aren't those guys today? Probably not.

I don't think Bryz comes close to that contract on the open market, but besides that he was another unnecessary move like Briere. They had Bobrovsky and Hovinen was in the system. Vokoun would have made more sense because he was 1)better, 2) cheaper, and 3) allowed them to continue to develop what they had. Impatience ruled the day with both Briere and Bryzgalov.


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Originally Posted by Jaydepps View Post
College UFAs shouldn't be expected to replace 1st rounders, but I certainly believe Homer has done an excellent job supplementing 2nd round to later picks signing various guys who are making an impact in the NHL or are looking like they will make an impact soon.
Who is making an impact beyond Read?

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06-28-2012, 02:53 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Libertine said that the first and second rounds were the best way, not the only way. no one ever said there was no other way to bring in new talent.

Also for what it's worth, if you're trading two players you drafted in the first round to get other players, you're still using your first round picks to acquire new talent to a degree, in that had you never had the opportunity to draft them you wouldn't have been able to trade them.
6 in one, half dozen in the other.

If the argument is that Holmgren likes to trade away his picks and they are the only way he can acquire cheap talent. I say, who cares if he trades his players/picks as long as he get cheap talent in the trades. He's done exactly that.

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06-28-2012, 02:55 PM
  #823
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Who is making an impact beyond Read?
Bob was, Gus will be soon it looks like. Harry Z could be soon as well.

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06-28-2012, 02:57 PM
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06-28-2012, 03:00 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Sure Briere might be overpaid. Playoff clutch play, leadership, and mentoring our younger play lets him get away with that. His contract is fine. We could sign a Ryan Suter right now. So Why is this even being talked about? More contracts will be coming off the books in years as our young cheap roster players will need raises. So what you are saying is an terrible example.

Trading away picks. I halfway agree. There are times when i felt he should of not traded away picks but also when it was justified in bringing back a solid return that benefited the team NOW. So the prospect pool got stocked up this year are you happy? Defenseman are getting paid more then they did in the past couple of years because of the market and cap going up. So it is pretty common more teams now today pay more for their bottom pairing. When are people going to understand this?

Everything you said was pointless and inaccurate. The only thing i agree with is the lack of ability to develop defenseman which is an organizational problem. Other then that you are trying to expect this guy to be this perfect GM with no flaws. It doesn't exist.
I don't think a one dimensional forward who hurts the team as much as he helps it is not someone I want leading my team. He is a good guy, but I don't want anyone following his example. Could they afford Suter while also signing a backup and re-signing Jake? That's debatable. The Flyers have contracts coming off the books, but they still need to replace those players while re-signing their youth. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Timonen is a UFA. Who takes his minutes? Does Holmgren attempt to sign a Weber to replace him? If so his money is no longer going towards the young players.

I don't believe the prospect pool was stocked up this year.

No one is expecting him to perform without flaws, but when you overpay more often than not and you're peeing away draft picks more often than not then you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible IMO. Look at Detroit. Do you see them constantly see making big splashes in free agency and trading players? This year will be the first time because their home grown talent in Lidstrom retired.

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