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06-28-2012, 03:08 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Really? That's an interesting position. You think the curet difference is close? You sire you aren't applying "projection" to ennis to get close without projecting Ryan?

I don't see how "currently" they are close without looking at potential/projection in ennis case
See previous response

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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
I don't think that's necessarily true at all, because you also have to factor in short-term vs long-term.

I'll use a classic example: Joe Nieuwendyk traded for Jarome Iginla and Corey Millen. It's not that one believes Iginla would not ever be Nieuwendyk's equal (which looking back, I'd probably argue Iginla has surpassed Nieuwendyk), it's that Dallas was better in the short term which is why they made that deal.

Ennis and Ryan is different in that Ryan is much younger, but a similar argument can be made that Ryan helps us more sooner than Ennis will, assuming both continue to develop as expected. The value is what it is though because Ryan is a more established NHL player, there's no arguing that, and Anaheim is also under no compulsion to trade him (sure, it could become a huge distraction, but they could keep him if they wanted to), meaning you'd have to overpay some to get him out. Especially with multiple suitors and needing to beat out other offers.
I can't see how anyone could approach this team building for the short term. In 3 years I expect their value to a team to be roughly equivalent, and I don't think the Sabres should be thinking any sooner than that. Honestly, it hadn't crossed my mind that they would be.

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06-28-2012, 03:10 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
You believe Y>X in this case. I don't see how that changes my point, honestly. If X becomes Y's equal, than he effects the game at the same level if not in the same way, per se.
I think X and Y can impact games in different ways, and the way that Y impacts games will become more valuable as the games get more important, even if X is close to an "equivalent" player---whatever that means.

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06-28-2012, 03:13 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'm surprised the "raw points" crowd is using PTs per game as an argument. You'd think they'd argue total points ( like this same crowd did in the staal debates... Completely ignoring PTs per game in favor of the "he never scored x amount of points.)
Even though I'm in agreement more or less all your main points in this thread (except I don't want to trade Ennis for Ryan), don't you think your colorful attempts to designate everyone as being in "crowds" and "camps" is rather divisive and nonconstructive, not to mention more than a bit condescending

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06-28-2012, 03:13 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think X and Y can impact games in different ways, and the way that Y impacts games will become more valuable as the games get more important, even if X is close to an "equivalent" player---whatever that means.
If Y impacts the game in a more valuable way, he's more valuable. It's as simple as that. I don't see Ryan's performance in 3/4 years being more valuable than Ennis' much in the same way Lucic is a great player whose game becomes more important in the playoffs but not necessarily more valuable than Savard pre-concussion.

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06-28-2012, 03:14 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
In what capacity? Ryan's producing offense at the same level he did when he was 22 and that's hardly higher than where Ennis is at 22. If you feel the other factors of his game set him apart at that level than you must feel Ennis could not develop those in 2.5 years, correct?
U said u were comparing them "currently".... EnnIs developent over 2.5 years should have no place in the conversation

You're position is a word salad

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06-28-2012, 03:16 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
See previous response



I can't see how anyone could approach this team building for the short term. In 3 years I expect their value to a team to be roughly equivalent, and I don't think the Sabres should be thinking any sooner than that. Honestly, it hadn't crossed my mind that they would be.
In three years there will be a lot of players on this team, that are good players, that won't be here.

Teams that start looking three years down the road usually end up in the same boat they started in.....looking for the future, unless you crap out and end up with a Crosby and Malkin on your team.

What I don't get is why people think this team is so far away from winning. It needs a few tweaks but there is a lot of talent on the roster. Not to mention, Bobby Ryan is a short and long term investment.

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06-28-2012, 03:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
U said u were comparing them "currently".... EnnIs developent over 2.5 years should have no place in the conversation

You're position is a word salad
The difference is not currently that great.


It is not great because what sets apart Ryan is his natural development and the simple advantage of being 2.5 years older.

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06-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
Even though I'm in agreement more or less all your main points in this thread (except I don't want to trade Ennis for Ryan), don't you think your colorful attempts to designate everyone as being in "crowds" and "camps" is rather divisive and nonconstructive, not to mention more than a bit condescending
No. I think their are clearly 2 camps.

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06-28-2012, 03:19 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
The difference is not currently that great.


It is not great because what sets apart Ryan is his natural development and the simple advantage of being 2.5 years older.
Ryan two years ago was better than Ennis right now (back to back 30 goal seasons and all) and his production hasn't dropped off since then.

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06-28-2012, 03:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
In three years there will be a lot of players on this team, that are good players, that won't be here.

Teams that start looking three years down the road usually end up in the same boat they started in.....looking for the future, unless you crap out and end up with a Crosby and Malkin on your team.

What I don't get is why people think this team is so far away from winning. It needs a few tweaks but there is a lot of talent on the roster. Not to mention, Bobby Ryan is a short and long term investment.
Firstly, if the Sabres could move Ennis for Ryan straight up, I'd do it. There's no guarantee that Ennis *will* get better. But paying Ennis and anything substantive for Ryan would be an organizational mistake because by the time this team is good enough to contend I strongly believe Ennis and Ryan will be roughly equivalent players in terms of total impact.

This team didn't make the playoffs last year. That's not by happenstance. It has a lot of young talent, and in 3 or 4 years I expect the team to be a perennial contender. Perhaps that's optimistic, but it's what I believe. But outside of the old "any given Sunday" route I don't see this team winning a cup in the next year or two.

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06-28-2012, 03:23 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Ryan two years ago was better than Ennis right now (back to back 30 goal seasons and all) and his production hasn't dropped off since then.
Ryan's NHL career at the age Ennis is now is pretty comparable to what Ennis has accomplished given the nature of their roles and surrounding casts.

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06-28-2012, 03:26 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
In what capacity? Ryan's producing offense at the same level he did when he was 22 and that's hardly higher than where Ennis is at 22. If you feel the other factors of his game set him apart at that level than you must feel Ennis could not develop those in 2.5 years, correct?
Ryan had a down year but is 35g 65pt player prior to last year. He did that playing 50% of the time on the top line and the rest on the 2nd line. In other words he is proven 35g 65pt top 6 player.

Ennis had a 20g 49pt rookie year as a top 6 winger, good numbers but no where near what Ryan's done as a top 6 winger. Ennis was a top 6 player for 34 games this season, mostly as a winger. His production in that capacity was 34gms 7g 8a 15pts (thats prorates out to 17g 19a 36pts over 82gms). Then Ennis became our 3rd line center for the last 14gms of the year, much like the Roy line in 06-07. In those 14gms he had 8g 11a 19pts. But what he did as a 3rd line center isn't comaprable to what a top 6 player has done. Its comparing apples and oranges.

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06-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Ryan's NHL career at the age Ennis is now is pretty comparable to what Ennis has accomplished given the nature of their roles and surrounding casts.
Ridiculous

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06-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Firstly, if the Sabres could move Ennis for Ryan straight up, I'd do it. There's no guarantee that Ennis *will* get better. But paying Ennis and anything substantive for Ryan would be an organizational mistake because by the time this team is good enough to contend I strongly believe Ennis and Ryan will be roughly equivalent players in terms of total impact.

This team didn't make the playoffs last year. That's not by happenstance. It has a lot of young talent, and in 3 or 4 years I expect the team to be a perennial contender. Perhaps that's optimistic, but it's what I believe. But outside of the old "any given Sunday" route I don't see this team winning a cup in the next year or two.
Yeah, I'm aware that this team did not make the playoffs last season....just as I'm aware they did the two years before that.

The team may not be a contender as is, I get that. However, a couple right moves and this team becomes a contender real fast.

And a Bobby Ryan type player coming in is one of those moves.

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06-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
My hunch would be that 50% of the time, Ryan was playing against mid-pairings/2-way lines (as opposed to definite checking lines) as he would have been on the second line. I wouldn't go so far as to call it the Ennis treatment...
To suggests Ennis was going against the Mike Weber's and Bickell's of the world is wrong. Someone recently posted the d pairings Ennis scored against and they were almost all 1st and 2nd pairing defensemen.

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06-28-2012, 03:29 PM
  #116
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It's funny, all us Sabres fans are all knocking Ennis down from his pedestal but fans of other teams just raise him up.

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06-28-2012, 03:30 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Ryan's NHL career at the age Ennis is now is pretty comparable to what Ennis has accomplished given the nature of their roles and surrounding casts.
The only thing comparable was that their career highs in assists were both 29.

Ryan had the better career high in goals (35 to 20) and pts (64 to 49). Bobby Ryan also has more Playoff goals and points in the same number of playoff games played at that point in their careers.

And he missed far fewer games.

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06-28-2012, 03:31 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
It's funny, all us Sabres fans are all knocking Ennis down from his pedestal but fans of other teams just raise him up.
I'm not knocking him down. In fact, I really like him.

I just believe that a Bobby Ryan would be more valuable to this team, and what they need, than Tyler Ennis is.

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06-28-2012, 03:33 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Or, alternatively, 50% of the time he was playing with turd linemates, and the other 50% he was playing against top pairings. Anyways, your caveman analysis leaves no room to consider that Anaheim got to pick the matchups in 50% of their games, so Ryan very well could've been put out against top pairings on nights he wasn't playing with Perry and Getzlaf so that P&G could have easier matchups.
Stafford was the biggest turd on this team before Ennis came along. Foligno had played 2 NHL games. Can't find bigger turd's than that...

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06-28-2012, 03:34 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Ryan had a down year but is 35g 65pt player prior to last year. He did that playing 50% of the time on the top line and the rest on the 2nd line. In other words he is proven 35g 65pt top 6 player.

Ennis had a 20g 49pt rookie year as a top 6 winger, good numbers but no where near what Ryan's done as a top 6 winger. Ennis was a top 6 player for 34 games this season, mostly as a winger. His production in that capacity was 34gms 7g 8a 15pts (thats prorates out to 17g 19a 36pts over 82gms). Then Ennis became our 3rd line center for the last 14gms of the year, much like the Roy line in 06-07. In those 14gms he had 8g 11a 19pts. But what he did as a 3rd line center isn't comaprable to what a top 6 player has done. Its comapring apples and oranges.
Ryan's down year is just as reflective of him as a player as his best year is. You can't hand-wave it away.

Ryan produced his points last year playing with a Hart winner and a top-10 center in the league, or playing easier defensive pairings while the aforementioned All-Stars drew primary coverage. There's no getting around that. Incidentally, in his earlier seasons he too received sheltered minutes. Look at his hilariously high OZSP in 07-08 and 08-09 for that. Comparing those early stats to Ennis' there's hardly a difference.

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06-28-2012, 03:36 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
Ryan's down year is just as reflective of him as a player as his best year is. You can't hand-wave it away.

Ryan produced his points last year playing with a Hart winner and a top-10 center in the league, or playing easier defensive pairings while the aforementioned All-Stars drew primary coverage. There's no getting around that. Incidentally, in his earlier seasons he too received sheltered minutes. Look at his hilariously high OZSP in 07-08 and 08-09 for that. Comparing those early stats to Ennis' there's hardly a difference.
If Bobby Ryan can be counted on for 30 goals, 100+ hits, 80+ games played, and a +1 in a down year, then sign me up!

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06-28-2012, 03:38 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
I'm not knocking him down. In fact, I really like him.

I just believe that a Bobby Ryan would be more valuable to this team, and what they need, than Tyler Ennis is.
This.

It's like comparing two diamonds. One might be cut just a little bit better than the other, but at the end of the day, they're both still diamonds.

Anyone who gets the impression that those of us who are willing to trade him in the right deal think he's worthless or something is trying to create an argument where none exists.

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06-28-2012, 03:38 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
The only thing comparable was that their career highs in assists were both 29.

Ryan had the better career high in goals (35 to 20) and pts (64 to 49). Bobby Ryan also has more Playoff goals and points in the same number of playoff games played at that point in their careers.

And he missed far fewer games.
Considering that Ryan played in a slightly higher-scoring league at the time, with recent cup winner and top-5 offense, his 67 points in 87 games by age 22 is pretty damn close to Ennis' 92 in 140. 7 in 15 playoff games for Ryan, 8 in 13 for Ennis.

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06-28-2012, 03:39 PM
  #124
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If Bobby Ryan can be counted on for 30 goals, 100+ hits, 80+ games played, and a +1 in a down year, then sign me up!
Hey, it's almost like Ryan is a good player or something

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06-28-2012, 03:40 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
No. I think their are clearly 2 camps.
Then where do I fit in this well-defined, hard world of hyperbole

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