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JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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Old
06-28-2012, 03:02 PM
  #826
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Who is making an impact beyond Read?
You could make a case for Harry Zolniercyzk, but it's certainly not a first rounder type of impact either way (-10, 21 points, 39 games). Bob was a starter for a year. Gustafsson played a lot this year and did well against Pitt in the play offs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
6 in one, half dozen in the other.

If the argument is that Holmgren likes to trade away his picks and they are the only way he can acquire cheap talent. I say, who cares if he trades his players/picks as long as he get cheap talent in the trades. He's done exactly that.
The argument was that those picks are the BEST way for him to acquire cheap young talent. You seem to want to revise it so that she said it was the "only" way....I didn't see her say that. Two first rounders for Chris Pronger, plus a player drafted in the first that was doing very well. That is a good example of him not using those picks to get cheap or young talent.

But if you're changing your point from "that's not really the best place to get young talent" to "I don't care how he uses those picks so long as he is able to bring in young cheap talent"....then that's a different statement altogether.


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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Guys gotta ask, can JVR play PK?
He is a serviceable penalty killer, but given the tools he has physically he could probably be better at it if he was asked to do it more. I think that's how he fractured his foot before the play offs this year, blocking a shot on the pk.

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06-28-2012, 03:06 PM
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Trades are another way to get cheap talent.

Case in point:

Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, Luke Schenn and Wayne Simmonds
I don't consider a defender struggling on the third pairing that is making $3.6M to be cheap. In a trade you also have to give up talent. If he was able to draft defenseman for example you'd have JVR and the defender instead of trading him for Luke Schenn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Bob was, Gus will be soon it looks like. Harry Z could be soon as well.
Forgot about Bob. I disagree with Gus. Holmgren doesn't trust him beyond depth. If he re-signs Carle as he plans his top 7 spots are already locked up.

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06-28-2012, 03:10 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
The Randy Jones signing falls somewhere in this territory as well, I think. Homer didn't want it to go to arbitration (he wanted to sign Jones to a multi-year deal iirc), so he forked out some extra cash for Jones to sign up. Might have been a good idea if we weren't so close to the cap already...
Recalling him after waiving him was one of my all-time favourite moves. Lose the player, but have half his salary hit the cap is sheer brilliance.

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06-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #829
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06-28-2012, 03:15 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
You're probably right. The essential point there though is that the first and second round are far and away the best way to bring in new young talent into your organization. Not the only, but certainly the best. I don't think anyone but Snotbubbles is debating that.
I agree that the first and second rounds are the best methods of gaining talent, but later rounds as well free agency are great ways to add talent and depth. Homer has brought players like Read, Gus, Z, and Powe in for nothing but a contract spot. All of these guys are or are looking like they will be NHL regulars one day. Now on the flip side he has brought in many that won't amount to anything such as Greentree and Rowe, but that is the nature of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Who is making an impact beyond Read?
Currently aside from Read I would say Gus and Z are on the verge, Powe is doing decent in Minnesota after returning us a decent pick. We have promising players on the Phantoms right now that were brought in as college UFAs that may provide great depth in the future.

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06-28-2012, 03:20 PM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Forgot about Bob. I disagree with Gus. Holmgren doesn't trust him beyond depth. If he re-signs Carle as he plans his top 7 spots are already locked up.
Yeah I'm not as high on Gus around here as some people, but I could see him becoming a regular on this team as a bottom pairing guy. Not exactly first round talent but still more than some throw away signing.

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06-28-2012, 03:31 PM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Recalling him after waiving him was one of my all-time favourite moves. Lose the player, but have half his salary hit the cap is sheer brilliance.
who needs a million in cap space anyway.

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06-28-2012, 03:35 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
who needs a million in cap space anyway.
As if anyone ever defended the Randy Jones debacle.

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06-28-2012, 03:37 PM
  #834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaydepps View Post
I agree that the first and second rounds are the best methods of gaining talent, but later rounds as well free agency are great ways to add talent and depth. Homer has brought players like Read, Gus, Z, and Powe in for nothing but a contract spot. All of these guys are or are looking like they will be NHL regulars one day. Now on the flip side he has brought in many that won't amount to anything such as Greentree and Rowe, but that is the nature of the game.



Currently aside from Read I would say Gus and Z are on the verge, Powe is doing decent in Minnesota after returning us a decent pick. We have promising players on the Phantoms right now that were brought in as college UFAs that may provide great depth in the future.
I agree that he is able to find depth, but that's not the level of talent I meant. He also also doesn't seem to put a lot of faith in his undrafted talent other than Read. He gave up on Bob as a starter after a year. He prefers veterans like Lilja, Kubina, Grossmann, and Schenn than to let Gus have a full time role. He seems to prefer Rinaldo and Sestito over Zolnierczyk. These FA's don't make up for his lack of picks.

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06-28-2012, 03:39 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I don't think a one dimensional forward who hurts the team as much as he helps it is not someone I want leading my team. He is a good guy, but I don't want anyone following his example. Could they afford Suter while also signing a backup and re-signing Jake? That's debatable. The Flyers have contracts coming off the books, but they still need to replace those players while re-signing their youth. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Timonen is a UFA. Who takes his minutes? Does Holmgren attempt to sign a Weber to replace him? If so his money is no longer going towards the young players.

I don't believe the prospect pool was stocked up this year.

No one is expecting him to perform without flaws, but when you overpay more often than not and you're peeing away draft picks more often than not then you're preventing yourself from icing the best team possible IMO. Look at Detroit. Do you see them constantly see making big splashes in free agency and trading players? This year will be the first time because their home grown talent in Lidstrom retired.
That's the problem. You people whine about lack of homegrown talent but when someone is retiring and going to leave we need to go out and trade for somebody. Or sign Suter. You people almost think just like Holmgren. How about its time for Coburn and the other young guys to step up and take Kimmo's place? Why do we need to go out and sign Suter or Parise? These guys can't be babied for ever. They need to take that next step.

It is easy. As you claim all we have to do is not trade our picks and let all of our draft picks develop. You see how stupid that thinking is? Sure you need prospects but if you need to address a need now you have to give up some of those assets. If you want those support players to help our young talent you are going to have to give up assets in a trade.

How many organizations have had the same consistency of Detroit? I hate when people use them as an example because they nearly outclass every NHL team. Damnit i want a cup in Philly too. But this organization when it comes to putting a competitive product on the ice they have been consistent in doing it for MANY years.

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06-28-2012, 03:41 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
As if anyone ever defended the Randy Jones debacle.
oh there were some who did. they wont be named.

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06-28-2012, 03:47 PM
  #837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I agree that he is able to find depth, but that's not the level of talent I meant. He also also doesn't seem to put a lot of faith in his undrafted talent other than Read. He gave up on Bob as a starter after a year. He prefers veterans like Lilja, Kubina, Grossmann, and Schenn than to let Gus have a full time role. He seems to prefer Rinaldo and Sestito over Zolnierczyk. These FA's don't make up for his lack of picks.
I think the lack of picks argument kind of is irrelevant at this point. They have easily some of the best young players in the game. Yes, they traded Richards and Carter to get them, but had they kept those picks there is no telling who they would have been or how they would have developed. Of all the First and Second round picks that were shipped out, the teams wound up getting:

T.J. Brennan
Jonathon Blum
Dmitri Kugryshev
Richard Panik
John Carlson
Jason Zucker
Lucas Lessio
John Moore
Emerson Etem
Stuart Percy
Devin Shore
Brian Hart

Now, of course we don't know who the Flyers would have picked with any of these picks, but outside of Carlson and Blum, there really aren't any guys on that list that I'm kicking myself because we don't have them. Again, the Flyers could have picked someone better, or they could have made a worse pick (or the same pick). Some of these guys it is too soon to really evaluate, but I think the guys we have now I'd rather have than these guys.

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06-28-2012, 03:54 PM
  #838
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Moore and Etem are still promising on that list.

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06-28-2012, 03:56 PM
  #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Moore and Etem are still promising on that list.
Promising, no doubt but it is still too early to tell, and neither are guys that would be making or breaking this franchise to have. Not to mention both of those guys were involved with Pronger trade, which I think most would agree they would do over.

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06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
That's the problem. You people whine about lack of homegrown talent but when someone is retiring and going to leave we need to go out and trade for somebody. Or sign Suter. You people almost think just like Holmgren. How about its time for Coburn and the other young guys to step up and take Kimmo's place? Why do we need to go out and sign Suter or Parise? These guys can't be babied for ever. They need to take that next step.

It is easy. As you claim all we have to do is not trade our picks and let all of our draft picks develop. You see how stupid that thinking is? Sure you need prospects but if you need to address a need now you have to give up some of those assets. If you want those support players to help our young talent you are going to have to give up assets in a trade.

How many organizations have had the same consistency of Detroit? I hate when people use them as an example because they nearly outclass every NHL team. Damnit i want a cup in Philly too. But this organization when it comes to putting a competitive product on the ice they have been consistent in doing it for MANY years.


Who is you people? If you don't have any talent in the system then you have to go out and find replacements. I don't think Holmgren *has* to sign Weber, but I think he is more likely to chase him than not. People keep pointing out the expiring contracts like Timonen's, but what makes you think he isn't going to spend that money on a replacement? It's what he does. He spends up to the cap every season. When he knew he was a year from needing to sign Richards, Carter, and Umberger to new deals in a year he brings in Briere. That's just how he operates. He doesn't plan for any other year but the year in front of him.

No one said the Flyers have to keep all of their picks and can't acquire talent through other avenues. It's when you keep such a small percentage (6 out of 18 picks in the top 2 rounds - 33%) that it becomes problematic. In a salary capped league you need that cheap talent.

Detroit are the most successful organization in the league. It would make sense to see what they do that works to see if you can find a fraction of the success.


Last edited by Haute Couturier: 06-28-2012 at 04:05 PM. Reason: forgot to quote the post
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06-28-2012, 04:02 PM
  #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Detroit are the most successful organization in the league. It would make sense to see what they do that works to see if you can find a fraction of the success.
Tangential to all of this: Who else is interested to see how Detroit does without Lidstrom in the next couple of years? I think Rafalski leaving hurt them a bit more than some thought it might also. If they don't stay near the top of the Western Conference for the next couple years how much of Ken Holland's luster fades?

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06-28-2012, 04:03 PM
  #842
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think the lack of picks argument kind of is irrelevant at this point. They have easily some of the best young players in the game. Yes, they traded Richards and Carter to get them, but had they kept those picks there is no telling who they would have been or how they would have developed. Of all the First and Second round picks that were shipped out, the teams wound up getting:

T.J. Brennan
Jonathon Blum
Dmitri Kugryshev
Richard Panik
John Carlson
Jason Zucker
Lucas Lessio
John Moore
Emerson Etem
Stuart Percy
Devin Shore
Brian Hart

Now, of course we don't know who the Flyers would have picked with any of these picks, but outside of Carlson and Blum, there really aren't any guys on that list that I'm kicking myself because we don't have them. Again, the Flyers could have picked someone better, or they could have made a worse pick (or the same pick). Some of these guys it is too soon to really evaluate, but I think the guys we have now I'd rather have than these guys.
Justin Williams
Joni Pitkanen
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Steve Downie
Claude Giroux
James van Riemdsyk
Luca Sbisa
Sean Couturier

Those are the only names I care about. The Flyers didn't trade the names you mentioned. It's pointless to bring them up. We don't know who they would have drafted, but their success in the first round is good enough for me to feel optimistic. Imagine if Bob Clarke gave up most of his first round picks like Holmgren. Most of those names never become Flyers.

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06-28-2012, 04:04 PM
  #843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Who is you people? If you don't have any talent in the system then you have to go out and find replacements. I don't think Holmgren *has* to sign Weber, but I think he is more likely to chase him than not. People keep pointing out the expiring contracts like Timonen's, but what makes you think he isn't going to spend that money on a replacement? It's what he does. He spends up to the cap every season. When he knew he was a year from needing to sign Richards, Carter, and Umberger to new deals in a year he brings in Briere. That's just how he operates. He doesn't plan for any other year but the year in front of him.

No one said the Flyers have to keep all of their picks and can't acquire talent through other avenues. It's when you keep such a small percentage (6 out of 18 picks in the top 2 rounds - 33%) that it becomes problematic. In a salary capped league you need that cheap talent.

Detroit are the most successful organization in the league. It would make sense to see what they do that works to see if you can find a fraction of the success.
Dude, they have cheap talent. Yes he spends to the cap, but look at some of these contracts:

Read $900k
Giroux $3.75M
Couturier $1.75M
Schenn $3.11
Simmonds $1.75
Grossman $3.75
Schenn $3.6

The only real high salaries are Bryz, Briere, and Timonen. Mez is overpaid too. Coburn at $4.5 isn't necessarily a bargain, but that is a good deal. Not to mention the complimentary players the team has like Talbot at $1.7M a year. With the exception of Giroux and Couturier, none of those guys were drafted by the Flyers. And if the Flyers would have kept their picks to get this "cheap talent," we wouldn't have Schenn, Couturier, etc on there they would just be different names who may not be as good.

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06-28-2012, 04:08 PM
  #844
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Then how come other 29 teams don't emulate them? It's not that simple to sit here and say see what Detroit does. Lets do it. I like when people like to use the detroit model when most of their talent is found later in the drafts. The last first round pick they had was in 2010. In 2001-2005 They didn't have a first round pick all of those years. They hardly have any success with their first round picks. But they are very good in assessing late bloomers late in the draft. Most of you would totally be going nuts around here if that is how this team operated.

At this point having a bunch of young players that are NHL regulars in the lineup will let him get away with not having high end talent in the wait. Who is to say he won't let this current core grow in a couple years while restocking the prospect pool and only trading away picks if its an absolute need to make this team better? The only time a franchise is in trouble is when they have a bunch of aging vet and no prospects in the wait to replace them. That isn't our situation at all with our young lineup. For instance. Calgary is treading that fine line.

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06-28-2012, 04:09 PM
  #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Justin Williams
Joni Pitkanen
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Steve Downie
Claude Giroux
James van Riemdsyk
Luca Sbisa
Sean Couturier

Those are the only names I care about. The Flyers didn't trade the names you mentioned. It's pointless to bring them up. We don't know who they would have drafted, but their success in the first round is good enough for me to feel optimistic. Imagine if Bob Clarke gave up most of his first round picks like Holmgren. Most of those names never become Flyers.
No I agree with you there. I'm not saying they WOULDN'T have made better picks or even the same picks, I'm just saying that of those guys that were selected, none are that impressive to where I am really kicking myself on those trades. Some are, for sure. But again, if we don't make some of those trades, we likely don't have guys like Schenn, Couturier, Read, and others now. We'd have Richards and Carter still, and maybe some more prospects, but would the team really be better off? Possibly yes, possibly no. I don't think it is a given either way, all I think is that the team we have now is pretty damned good and pretty damned promising for the future.

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06-28-2012, 04:10 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Tangential to all of this: Who else is interested to see how Detroit does without Lidstrom in the next couple of years? I think Rafalski leaving hurt them a bit more than some thought it might also. If they don't stay near the top of the Western Conference for the next couple years how much of Ken Holland's luster fades?
I think people will begin to call him overrated, but after 20 straight years of making the playoffs and 4 Cups (I know he hasn't been GM for all 20) a down cycle was to be expected. He's achieved more than most people in his position in sports.

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06-28-2012, 05:55 PM
  #847
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I do like how to some jvr is going to be a future stud while schenn will just be average.
Not Average!


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06-28-2012, 08:31 PM
  #848
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Not Average!

Schenn has perfected the uplet pass.

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06-28-2012, 08:39 PM
  #849
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Schenn has perfected the uplet pass.
Considering how terrible some of our outlet passes were last season....we could use it!

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06-28-2012, 09:06 PM
  #850
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Schenn has perfected the uplet pass.
that is like the polar opposite of a Carle outlet pass..



/melikes

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