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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XV

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Old
06-28-2012, 08:59 PM
  #201
Zoidberg Jesus
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Uhh, are you kidding me?
The Chimera-Laich-Ward line was our best for the first quarter of the season. In fact, Laich got moved off of it well before Ward did (Laich was moved up to the 2nd line and Halpern took over 3C in a loss at the Islanders, first time the line was broken up). Backstrom's injury is what ultimately did the line in, since Laich was moved into a top six center role by necessity and then Johansson eventually shifted to wing.
Chimera was great for the first quarter of the season. Ward was along for the ride. Anyway, you've got a better memory than me. All I know is that around that time when the line was broken up, Laich's playing time went up, Chimmer's stayed roughly the same, and Ward's dropped (there's no quick and accurate way to quantify that claim, but Ward had no games below 10 minutes in the 33 games before Christmas, and 16 in the 49 after). That says to me that they didn't have a whole lot of confidence in Ward, and there's probably a good reason for that.

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06-28-2012, 09:14 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Chimera was great for the first quarter of the season. Ward was along for the ride. Anyway, you've got a better memory than me. All I know is that around that time when the line was broken up, Laich's playing time went up, Chimmer's stayed roughly the same, and Ward's dropped (there's no quick and accurate way to quantify that claim, but Ward had no games below 10 minutes in the 33 games before Christmas, and 16 in the 49 after). That says to me that they didn't have a whole lot of confidence in Ward, and there's probably a good reason for that.
Nice revisionist history. Ward wasn't putting up big points, but he was certainly playing his game very well in the beginning of the season. A player like Chimera doesn't score that many goals without help from his line mates. Ward played the puck retriever and forechecking role well, even if it didn't often show up on the stat sheet (though four of his six goals on the season did come by the end of that November 5th game at the Islanders, at which point he was already +6).

Ward's ice time fell because the Chimera-Laich-Ward line was, for all intents and purposes, our second line ahead of the Eakin/Knuble/Brouwer - Johansson - Semin line. It was getting more minutes for most of the early season, and sometimes got more than the Ovechkin line. Once it was broken up, he saw less ice time. Additionally Ward never saw much powerplay time.

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06-28-2012, 09:32 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Nice revisionist history. Ward wasn't putting up big points, but he was certainly playing his game very well in the beginning of the season. A player like Chimera doesn't score that many goals without help from his line mates. Ward played the puck retriever and forechecking role well, even if it didn't often show up on the stat sheet (though four of his six goals on the season did come by the end of that November 5th game at the Islanders, at which point he was already +6).

Ward's ice time fell because the Chimera-Laich-Ward line was, for all intents and purposes, our second line ahead of the Eakin/Knuble/Brouwer - Johansson - Semin line. It was getting more minutes for most of the early season, and sometimes got more than the Ovechkin line. Once it was broken up, he saw less ice time. Additionally Ward never saw much powerplay time.
Well, you can take your view of Wards play at the start of this year, and I'll take the Caps'. Agree to disagree.

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06-28-2012, 09:42 PM
  #204
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Well, you can take your view of Wards play at the start of this year, and I'll take the Caps'. Agree to disagree.
You're just flat-out wrong.

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06-28-2012, 09:49 PM
  #205
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Can we get rid of Schultz..i know its very off topic but he sucks and he knows it

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06-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
You're just flat-out wrong.
Oh come on. If Ward was this dazzling puck retriever that you guys are making him out to be, someone in the Caps organization would've taken notice and said "maybe we should give this guy some more playing time?" And yet, we say his playing time cut for the last half of the year, and them he received extremely sheltered minutes in the playoffs.

But yeah, you guys are right and the Caps are wrong. I'll await your appointment as Oates' assistants.

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06-28-2012, 09:57 PM
  #207
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Okay I'm confused, how is Staal a UFA in 2013? He'll only be 24..

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06-28-2012, 10:00 PM
  #208
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Oh come on. If Ward was this dazzling puck retriever that you guys are making him out to be, someone in the Caps organization would've taken notice and said "maybe we should give this guy some more playing time?" And yet, we say his playing time cut for the last half of the year, and them he received extremely sheltered minutes in the playoffs.

But yeah, you guys are right and the Caps are wrong. I'll await your appointment as Oates' assistants.
His play declined steadily after the beginning of the year. Based on comments of his I've read, his confidence was completely shot. I wanted to dump him off the team just for cap space before the playoffs, but he absolutely stepped up as advertized. Unfortunately he wasn't rewarded with more ice time, and he and Knuble had to drag around Aucoin all playoffs. His play at the beginning of the year and in the playoffs was outstanding. It's his playoffs in particular that makes me think he should be tried on an offensive line. Brouwer is a better scorer and screener, for example, but Ward's board work and cycling are much better. I'm not saying he's certain to succeed in such a role, but to say there's not reason to try it is simply ridiculous.

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06-28-2012, 10:01 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Liberation View Post
Okay I'm confused, how is Staal a UFA in 2013? He'll only be 24..
Don't you lose RFA years when you start playing so early? I thought hes been playing since his draft year making him earlier to UFA status? One of the CBA buffs will have to confirm but I think it has something to do with this reasoning.

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06-28-2012, 10:07 PM
  #210
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Okay I'm confused, how is Staal a UFA in 2013? He'll only be 24..
He'll be 25 to start the 13/14 season.

7 years accrued service = UFA.

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06-28-2012, 10:16 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by sonsofcain View Post
His play declined steadily after the beginning of the year. Based on comments of his I've read, his confidence was completely shot. I wanted to dump him off the team just for cap space before the playoffs, but he absolutely stepped up as advertized. Unfortunately he wasn't rewarded with more ice time, and he and Knuble had to drag around Aucoin all playoffs. His play at the beginning of the year and in the playoffs was outstanding. It's his playoffs in particular that makes me think he should be tried on an offensive line. Brouwer is a better scorer and screener, for example, but Ward's board work and cycling are much better. I'm not saying he's certain to succeed in such a role, but to say there's not reason to try it is simply ridiculous.
As I said before, the degree to which Ward's line was sheltered in these playoffs is astonishing. Ward face a quality of competition of -0.217, with 57.4% offensive zone starts. To give some context to those numbers, the easiest quality of competition amongst forwards was -0.187 (Cody Eakin, who himself was an outlier, with the next easiest QoC being a -0.083) and the highest offensive zone start % was 52.7. Hopefully that gives you some idea of just how easy that line had it in these playoffs, and why I don't find his post season play to be all that illuminating.

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06-28-2012, 10:24 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
As I said before, the degree to which Ward's line was sheltered in these playoffs is astonishing. Ward face a quality of competition of -0.217, with 57.4% offensive zone starts. To give some context to those numbers, the easiest quality of competition amongst forwards was -0.187 (Cody Eakin, who himself was an outlier, with the next easiest QoC being a -0.083) and the highest offensive zone start % was 52.7. Hopefully that gives you some idea of just how easy that line had it in these playoffs, and why I don't find his post season play to be all that illuminating.
I realize they were sheltered. Like I said, he wasn't given the opportunity to assume a bigger role. He met and exceeded all expectations within the limited bounds of his role, in my opinion. Whether he would have met the expectations a level up or not is impossible to know, but given his history of stepping up his play and production in the playoffs it's not unreasonable to think he would have. It's not his fault his role wasn't increased; he did all that was asked of him.

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06-28-2012, 11:11 PM
  #213
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Joel Ward is not a top 6 forward. I don't understand why you would even want to try. He's a great 4th liner and good 3rd liner (if that 3rd line is a checking line).

The difference between Ward and guys like Brouwer and Knuble, who have somewhat similar skill sets (and I imagine that's what you'd want Ward to play like), is that Ward has no offensive IQ, and doesn't make plays at all. At least Brouwer and Knuble, although somewhat slow and not all that skilled, can make plays if needed because they are much smarter than a player like Ward. When Ward gets the puck in transition or on the rush, he kills the play, and you can't have that because that's how you have to play now (see SCF) and that sounds like how Oates wants to play.

Look at NJ last year. 3 scoring lines and 1 checking line. I imagine that's what Oates will try to do since he says he wants to push the pace and control the game. Look for the 4th line to be a great one with 26-83-42. Ward will not be on the top 3 lines, and it's mind blowing that someone would want him in the top 6 IMO...

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06-28-2012, 11:21 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Joel Ward is not a top 6 forward. I don't understand why you would even want to try. He's a great 4th liner and good 3rd liner (if that 3rd line is a checking line).

The difference between Ward and guys like Brouwer and Knuble, who have somewhat similar skill sets (and I imagine that's what you'd want Ward to play like), is that Ward has no offensive IQ, and doesn't make plays at all. At least Brouwer and Knuble, although somewhat slow and not all that skilled, can make plays if needed because they are much smarter than a player like Ward. When Ward gets the puck in transition or on the rush, he kills the play, and you can't have that because that's how you have to play now (see SCF) and that sounds like how Oates wants to play.

Look at NJ last year. 3 scoring lines and 1 checking line. I imagine that's what Oates will try to do since he says he wants to push the pace and control the game. Look for the 4th line to be a great one with 26-83-42. Ward will not be on the top 3 lines, and it's mind blowing that someone would want him in the top 6 IMO...
He scored a lot of goals, and they signed him to an inflated contract because of one super season. Now we are stuck with a 4th liner earning 3 million.

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06-28-2012, 11:37 PM
  #215
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Can we get rid of Schultz..i know its very off topic but he sucks and he knows it
I imagine getting rid of him will take about as long as it took to get a 2nd line center. GMGM is waiting on a deal that will never happen. Dump him for a conditional 6th round pick, I say. But GMGM probably thinks he could have value like he did when green scored 30 goals next to him.

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06-28-2012, 11:48 PM
  #216
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I imagine getting rid of him will take about as long as it took to get a 2nd line center. GMGM is waiting on a deal that will never happen. Dump him for a conditional 6th round pick, I say. But GMGM probably thinks he could have value like he did when green scored 30 goals next to him.


I thought the same thing until I saw the Wideman deal. I think Schultz could easily be traded for maybe a 2nd rounder or a plumber winger. D in the NHL is crazy-stupid in demand.

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06-28-2012, 11:51 PM
  #217
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If Schultz stays at the same level and Oates comes in and finds him adequate, I'm just gonna give up. If the guy uses Jedi mind tricks on his coaches and management, what is there to do.. At least he plays decent in the regular season, until the spring ankle-breaking season starts..

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06-28-2012, 11:59 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Joel Ward is not a top 6 forward. I don't understand why you would even want to try.
Guess Nashville shouldn't have tried it in the playoffs last year...


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
He's a great 4th liner and good 3rd liner (if that 3rd line is a checking line).

The difference between Ward and guys like Brouwer and Knuble, who have somewhat similar skill sets (and I imagine that's what you'd want Ward to play like), is that Ward has no offensive IQ, and doesn't make plays at all. At least Brouwer and Knuble, although somewhat slow and not all that skilled, can make plays if needed because they are much smarter than a player like Ward. When Ward gets the puck in transition or on the rush, he kills the play, and you can't have that because that's how you have to play now (see SCF) and that sounds like how Oates wants to play.

Look at NJ last year. 3 scoring lines and 1 checking line. I imagine that's what Oates will try to do since he says he wants to push the pace and control the game. Look for the 4th line to be a great one with 26-83-42. Ward will not be on the top 3 lines, and it's mind blowing that someone would want him in the top 6 IMO...
What 4th liner averages 29 points a season in their NHL career? 29 points would have tied for 192nd among forwards in the NHL last year, just barely out of top six territory (top 180). Last year was easily Ward's worse in terms of production, and his career numbers are in line with high quality 3rd liners.
Even without adjusting back to his career average, Ward produced the same amount of points as Manny Malhotra, Mike Knuble, and Matthew Lombardi did last season. He actually had more points than Jay McClement or Aaron Asham (guys that many have clamored for on these boards).

Not to mention you greatly overstated his struggles in transition...


I'll be shocked if Ward doesn't see more time in the top 9 than he does away from it next year (barring injury). He can be a quality complimentary player, and has shown flashes of scoring brilliance and the ability to step up in the clutch. FWIW, he had more points than Semin in the playoffs.

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06-29-2012, 01:51 AM
  #219
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Funny to look at the Schultz issue and just laugh hysterically.

Beauchemin for Gardiner + Lupul, and probably now Schultz.

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06-29-2012, 02:22 AM
  #220
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I'm interested in Jokinen and Konopka as C depth, if they come at a fair price. Jokinen doesn't have to be 1C here. He can just be a solid 3C and help on the 2nd PP unit. Konopka would make us harder to play against through the regular season by kicking guys' *****. He might get a little fire burning in the locker room, too, not sure.

And ffs, sign Fedotenko! That guy is cheap and a beast in the playoffs.

Also interested in M. Samuelsson if he takes a pay cut.

Asham is a hard guy to play against.

This GMing is really easy. I'd have the Cup in town in a year or two, guys.

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06-29-2012, 04:20 AM
  #221
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So as of right now, this is IMO what we're looking at on July 1st. I can see it go either of theese two ways (depending on Semin re-signing or not)

Without Semin:..................................................With Semin:

Ovechkin-Backstrom-???...............................Ovechkin-Backstrom-???
????-Ribeiro-Brouwer....................................Laich-Ribeiro-Semin
Chimera-Laich-Ward.....................................Chimera-???-Brouwer
Hendricks-Beagle-???....................................Hendricks-Beagle-???

Alzner-Carlson.............................................Alzner-Carlson
???-Green..................................................???-Green
Hamrlik-Orlov...............................................Hamrlik-Orlov

Holtby-Neuvirth...........................................Holtby-Neuvirth

Neither Laich or Brouwer is IMO good enough to play on the top line, and shouldn't be on the same line if it's a scoring line. Laich is the more skilled one and had some chemistry with Semin a couple years ago, that's why prefer him on Semin's off-wing.

Ward should play on the 3rd line if any line on this team. He's good at the cycle game, tough to knock off the puck, doesn't shy away from the net and is good defensively. But he is making way to much money to play on the 4th line.

Johansson doesn't have a clear role/spot on this team and while still young and developing should be moved if the right deal comes along. He's clearly not a top-6 C this year, and too weak and bad at faceoffs for 3C.
Since the top-6 now has two great playmaking centers and he's neither a scorer nor a powerforward, which IMO should be the components of a succesful scoring-line, he should be moved for someone to fill the lacking pieces to complete the top-6.

Some (un-)realistic options should be:

Top-6 wingers: Zach Parise (UFA), Shane Doan (UFA),Nikolai Kulemin (RFA), Johan Franzen (8yrs@$3,954,545), Alexander Radulov (RFA), Bobby Ryan (3yrs@$5,100,000), P.A. Parenteau (UFA)

Secondhand winger options: Andrei Kostitsyn (UFA), Jiri Hudler (UFA), Clarke MacArthur (1yr@$3,250,000), Jaromir Jagr (UFA), Devin Setoguchi (2yrs@$3,000,000), Viktor Stalberg (1yr@$875,000), Peter Mueller (UFA), Mikael Samuelsson (UFA), Kristian Husselius (UFA)

3C options: Dominic Moore (UFA), Paul Gaustad (UFA), Jay McClement (UFA), Daniel Winnik (UFA)

4RW options: Brandon Prust (UFA), Jordin Tootoo (UFA), Tanner Glass (UFA), Bryan Bickell (1yr@$541,667)

Options for 2LD: Ryan Suter (UFA), Niklas Hjalmarsson (2yrs@$3,500,000), Douglas Murray (1yr@$2,500,000), Carl Gunnarsson (1yr@$1,325,000), Jason Garrison (UFA), Matt Carle (UFA), Bryan Allen (UFA)

Best of worlds?

Ryan, Semin, Moore, Prust, Suter

Ovechkin-Backstrom-Ryan
Laich-Ribeiro-Semin
Chimera-Moore-Brouwer
Hendricks-Beagle-Prust

Suter-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov

Holtby-Neuvirth


Last edited by MW6: 06-29-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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06-29-2012, 06:36 AM
  #222
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Don't think the Caps really have assets to get Ryan, even if they did, would likely be overpayment (no thanks).

Ribeiro still a 1 year rental at this point, so MJ is more valuable than his objective quality, because there is no depth at the position..

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06-29-2012, 06:40 AM
  #223
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snip
thanks for this post, after a long trip away, I was looking for some consolidated info.

I would still like to see the Caps make some kind of move to lock up Carlzner long-term if it can be done, per the CBA...I don't know the finer points of these things.

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06-29-2012, 06:56 AM
  #224
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Asham is a hard guy to play against.
Have people forgotten that he's a straight up thug?



And you know he'd get along great with Jay Beagle.



I do not want that piece of **** on this team.

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06-29-2012, 07:04 AM
  #225
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Right about when everyone thinks George doesn't want toughness, he re-inks Erskine, trades for DJ King, trades a first for Brouwer, drafts a Tom Jones. Asham may fly off the handle at times and lose his cool, but at least he has a pulse. Watching Ward patrol that 4RW slot all year is going to put me to sleep. It just doesn't seem the optimal spot for Ward, he can do more. I dont think he was so sought after, nor inked to be a 4RW. I think we need a 4RW unless we slot Hendricks or Sjogren there.

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