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Trading Staal and signing Ryan Suter

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Old
03-27-2012, 12:44 PM
  #176
Inferno
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Lindstrom is 2nd best defenseman of all time behind Orr, hands down! By the way, make that coffee with a little milk and no sugar.
Bourque wasn't a slouch either fwiw. im not sure id definitively say Lidstrom is 2nd all time. I would, however, say he is easily one of the 5 best defenseman of all time. tough to say exactly where he fits, behind Orr of course.

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03-27-2012, 12:58 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by mahonistan View Post
Not really. The team's problems won't go away simply by adding big named guys via huge contracts and big trades. We've seen the effects of terrible contracts from perennial 60 pt players like Nash with Drury and Gomez. Parise would be nice, but it's unrealistic. I don't see the need to add a huge contract when we are first in the east this year and our young guys will only get better. We can keep the farm and see if it pans out and wait a couple of years until better players hit the market. I am a realist however and I know the Rangers historically have been the type of team to trade young talent and sign players to huge contracts. I just hope they aren't stupid enough to add an overhyped Nash or severely overpay to get Parise out of NJ. If they can get Parise for 5-6 mil in a front loaded deal, fine. However the 8 years 72 mil I've been seeing is crippling. I just wouldn't want to be in a situation where you can't re-sign MDZ, Hagelin, Callahan, McD, Girardi, and Stepan down the line. Call me old fashioned, but based on every hockey dynasty, the way to build a team is through the draft and the farm. Not trades and free agency. The only sport where you can do that is basketball. The Rangers have FAILED with the trade and free agency model. Especially when it comes to overpaying players like Gomez, Drury, Redden, Bure, Lindros, and even older by trading Park and Ratelle for Esposito. That alone may have cost the Rangers a cup or two. I understand the NY mindset is win now worry about it later and that I'm a minority in not wanting to add a huge contract. From my point of view, this team has great chemistry and the pieces they need are already here in the farm. However, I am just a fan and my opinion does not and will not ever matter. Historically speaking though, the stuff you guys are proposing is exactly what has kept the Rangers from winning in the past and doing it again will not bring in a cup.


Examples of this big name fiasco would be
Lindros traded to Philly.
That trade basically sent Phillys farm to Colorado. They used some spare parts in Thibault and draft picks to get Roy (a legend) and those two trades (one a direct result from trading Lindros) won Colorado 2 cups. Lindros was great, but he never won the Flyers the cup. He was overhyped as "the next Wayne Gretzky".

Phil Esposito was traded to the Rangers for Brad Park and Jean Ratelle. The Esposito wanted Ken Hodge so the Rangers traded away Rick Middleton. Had those two trades not happened for big names, we'd have at least another cup.

Bure, Lindros, Kovalev (again), Nedved, Drury, Gomez, Redden, Holik... all acquisitions by the Rangers and we all know how that turned out.

Exceptions are when you can acquire Jagr, Roy, Messier, and Gretzky for almost nothing. But those guys at the times of their acquisitions by their respective teams were amongst the greatest players ever. Other than that, it doesn't really work out. Look at Hossa's and Kovalchuk's contracts. they are not worth their contracts though Kovy is playing better but it took 3 years. How will Parise or Nash be any different? Even Gaborik and Richards were shmeh signings. Richards is locked up for the rest of his career and people complain about him now. Imagine what happens in 4 years when his production really starts to drop.

You guys overvalue these free agents or potential trade targets who really aren't that much different than the ones we have signed or traded for and then watched them flounder in blue. Then we'll be hearing the "why did we trade for Nash" or "why did we sign Parise for 9 years".

I'm just a fan who wants his team to start a dynasty by building from within. If that makes me nuts, I'm cool with it. However, it's worked out pretty damn well for teams in the past and the Rangers have the same tools those other teams had already in their system.

How long will solid players like Stepan and MDZ keep taking minuscule contracts to stay at NYR? MDZ is on pace for 45 points and an above 20 +/-. How long do guys like him and McD say "I'm only worth 2-3 mil?" They can easily leave the NYR if they want to chase more money as NYR will be too bogged down from huge contracts to give them it.
This is an excellent post and I'm very much in agreement with you.
The trades Francis made for Esposito and Hodge along with some other ill advised moves in the last years of his tenure were horrendous but to be fair, I don't think those moves made the difference between winning and not winning a Stanley Cup.
The Flyers(74 and 75) and especially the Canadiens(76-79) were better teams than we were back then with or without the players we traded.

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Old
03-27-2012, 01:19 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Bourque wasn't a slouch either fwiw. im not sure id definitively say Lidstrom is 2nd all time. I would, however, say he is easily one of the 5 best defenseman of all time. tough to say exactly where he fits, behind Orr of course.
Different eras obviously but from the standpoint of longevity and winning alone, I'd take Lidstrom over Bourque in a heartbeat.

My top ten(10) defensemen of guys I've seen play(and in no specific order) would be Orr, Lidstrom, Harvey, Bourque, Coffey, Robinson, Potvin, Horton, Chelios and Stevens.

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03-27-2012, 01:23 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
Why would we want to Trade Stall. Hes a great D man who is still showing signs of improving offensively and is pain for forwards to play against when hes on his game. No to any trades with him.
Certainly not now with him coming off a concusion and his game not up to snuff just yet. The decision on which defenseman to eventually move is a decision for another day down the road.

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06-29-2012, 04:23 PM
  #180
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Well this is a curious thread to look back at

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06-29-2012, 04:33 PM
  #181
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Wouldn't mind this...Could really put a nice package together including Staal in a deal to Edmonton for a budding young star FWD..

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06-29-2012, 04:36 PM
  #182
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If you could get Carolina to bight on a Skinner for Staal trade, the addition of Skinner and subsitution of Suter would be an up grade for us and Skinners RFA status is a great asset to have for the forseeable future.


Don't take that as I don't appreciate Staal as a NYR player. Just dabbling with an idea.

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06-29-2012, 04:37 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Bourque wasn't a slouch either fwiw. im not sure id definitively say Lidstrom is 2nd all time. I would, however, say he is easily one of the 5 best defenseman of all time. tough to say exactly where he fits, behind Orr of course.
Anybody who never got the chance to see Ray Bourque play really missed a treat.

I agree: Start with Orr and argue over 2a and 2b.

I would personally take 77 over Lidstrom for my team.

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06-29-2012, 04:41 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by x CALLAHAN x View Post
If you could get Carolina to bight on a Skinner for Staal trade, the addition of Skinner and subsitution of Suter would be an up grade for us and Skinners RFA status is a great asset to have for the forseeable future.


Don't take that as I don't appreciate Staal as a NYR player. Just dabbling with an idea.
Tons of options if management were actually looking at doing something along these lines. Would have to ink Suter first of course, but it would pur us in a great position to make the team better..

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06-29-2012, 04:59 PM
  #185
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What a stupid thread. Staal was our best defenseman in the playoffs. People who are in favor of trading Staal are sickos.

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Old
06-29-2012, 05:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by valence View Post
How much more money will Suter command compared to Staal's contract...i assume we have to get rid staal's contract by trading him then we can sign Suter...need your input guys thanks
lolwut. we have to get rid of Staal? just to sign Suter?

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06-29-2012, 05:35 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by HAPPY HOUR View Post
Anybody who never got the chance to see Ray Bourque play really missed a treat.

I agree: Start with Orr and argue over 2a and 2b.

I would personally take 77 over Lidstrom for my team.
I agree. Orr > Bourque > Lidstrom. and that's just those 3. have to think who else would be in the top 5...

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06-29-2012, 05:52 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
What a stupid thread. Staal was our best defenseman in the playoffs. People who are in favor of trading Staal are sickos.
No, McD was. Not even close.I wouldn't trade Marc however.

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06-29-2012, 06:17 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I agree. Orr > Bourque > Lidstrom. and that's just those 3. have to think who else would be in the top 5...
Harvey, Potvin, Robinson, MAYBE Shore. Personally, I think Lidstrom falls into 4th or 5th depending on what you value. I think Harvey has to be in the top 3 from strictly an historical standpoint. Although, Bourque is #2 for me.

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06-29-2012, 07:11 PM
  #190
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Trading Staal is a ridiculous notion. Too much "what have you done for me lately" going on here. Staal didn't play at a high level this year and was less than impressive sometimes because of the concussion. So automatically he becomes expendable because people have forgotten how good he is. We have 2 all-star defensemen and 1 future all-star defensemen and people want to trade one. Insane. Find another way to acquire more scoring.

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06-29-2012, 07:16 PM
  #191
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Staal straight up for Ryan...if NYR can sign Suter.

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06-29-2012, 07:19 PM
  #192
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"shakes head"

Even for Rangers fans this is hard to believe. It just amazes me that people want to trade Staal. But hey, I'll play along hand me the XBOX, LOL

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06-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
"shakes head"

Even for Rangers fans this is hard to believe. It just amazes me that people want to trade Staal. But hey, I'll play along hand me the XBOX, LOL
i know. Its ridiculous. It just wont end.

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06-29-2012, 07:40 PM
  #194
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It's a moot point bc we r not getting suter, but do people really believe this team wouldn't be better w suter and Ryan?

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06-29-2012, 07:47 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
It's a moot point bc we r not getting suter, but do people really believe this team wouldn't be better w suter and Ryan?
Your right it a moot point. That's why I waste almost zero time considering it.

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06-29-2012, 07:49 PM
  #196
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What about Dennis Potvin? 4 straight cups, dirty, but skilled defenseman that controlled the pace of the game.

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06-29-2012, 07:49 PM
  #197
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Doing this accomplishes this:
-Mcd, Suter, MDZ down the left, Girardi on the right. So no matter what, you either push McD to the second or Suter...neither makes sense. plus...
-you get to increase you defensive cap by about $3 or 4m. but even though you increased the cap,
-you still haven't addressed the defensive minutes issue. Come next spring Girardi, McD and Suter are still playing 30 minutes a game and exhausted.

Congratulations you increased the cap, didn't address the RHD problem, the minutes played problem and at best turned the 2nd best defensive team into the best defensive team. Those Jennings trophies will look great!

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06-29-2012, 08:15 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Doing this accomplishes this:
-Mcd, Suter, MDZ down the left, Girardi on the right. So no matter what, you either push McD to the second or Suter...neither makes sense. plus...
-you get to increase you defensive cap by about $3 or 4m. but even though you increased the cap,
-you still haven't addressed the defensive minutes issue. Come next spring Girardi, McD and Suter are still playing 30 minutes a game and exhausted.

Congratulations you increased the cap, didn't address the RHD problem, the minutes played problem and at best turned the 2nd best defensive team into the best defensive team. Those Jennings trophies will look great!
Probably the most astounding problem for this team. The world is abundant with rightys(sp?). You'd think there would be more RH Dmen.

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06-29-2012, 08:26 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Doing this accomplishes this:
-Mcd, Suter, MDZ down the left, Girardi on the right. So no matter what, you either push McD to the second or Suter...neither makes sense. plus...
-you get to increase you defensive cap by about $3 or 4m. but even though you increased the cap,
-you still haven't addressed the defensive minutes issue. Come next spring Girardi, McD and Suter are still playing 30 minutes a game and exhausted.

Congratulations you increased the cap, didn't address the RHD problem, the minutes played problem and at best turned the 2nd best defensive team into the best defensive team. Those Jennings trophies will look great!
Excellent analysis.

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06-29-2012, 09:18 PM
  #200
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Probably the most astounding problem for this team. The world is abundant with rightys(sp?). You'd think there would be more RH Dmen.
Traditionally, the dominant hand is used at the top of the stick for better control. That's why left handed shots dominate the hockey world, they're actually righties. Us American's are backwards in this sense, I guess because of the baseball background.

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