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Marleau to NYR

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06-29-2012, 02:05 PM
  #76
GWOW
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If declining was a linear thing, you may have a point but it's not. Even in a supposedly declining state, he's been good for 30 goals and upper tier defensive play. That plus his speed in general are not things that you see very much in wingers these days regardless of their age. Fans may not value him much but GM's will. Lucky for the Sharks, he's not likely going to get dealt because he is exactly what they need more of in terms of talent and generally consistent production. If I'm DW, I'll take my chances that Marleau rebounds both in terms of regular season production and its declining state and his playoff production. Besides, if it truly tanks, they only need to ride it out two seasons before his contract expires.

I'll pass on trading Marleau regardless of what the Rangers have to offer.
Again, I'm just looking at it from a GM's standpoint. Some guys lose "it" immediately (Bobby Carpenter, Cheechoo, Kevin Stevens etc) and others do it gradually (often not gracefully).

I'm not denying that Marleau is still a legitimate 1st-line winger on any team in the league. The issue would be the cost to get him, and I think most Rangers fans think Dubinsky and Del Zotto might be a little steep.

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06-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #77
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I'm not denying that Marleau is still a legitimate 1st-line winger on any team in the league. The issue would be the cost to get him, and I think most Rangers fans think Dubinsky and Del Zotto might be a little steep.
Than why bring up "decline" and other arguments? If you want to keep DZ, fine. Marleau overall play is not declining.

Every single thread involving Marleau turns into "he's 32", "his cap hit is too high", "he's declining". It gets old.

Add the fact his NMC and him and his wife love for the bay area. he isn't going anywhere.

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06-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
So, points are the only variable to value a player?

Joe Thornton of the last 2 years (70, 77 pts) is a much better overall player than his 125 pt season. The same can be said for Marleau.
Of course not. Marleau, however, is approaching his 15th season. I'm sure if the goal-hungry Rangers traded away two their top tradeable assets, they would look for any indication that Marleau's offensive production was or was not on the decline.

In this case, his offensive production (goals, points, postseason) declined this season.

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06-29-2012, 02:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
For his cap hit, the Rangers would want goals and points. Dubinsky is a very good skater and an even better defender at 3 million less.
Marleau is a better skater, consistently ranked one of the fastest in the league. Marleau is a better defender as well, how many selke votes has Dubinsky got?

Look, we really do not want to trade Marleau, it's counter productive. We need speedy wingers, we are not going to trade one of the top-10 LW in the game and improve.

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06-29-2012, 02:17 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Than why bring up "decline" and other arguments? If you want to keep DZ, fine. Marleau overall play is not declining.

Every single thread involving Marleau turns into "he's 32", "his cap hit is too high", "he's declining". It gets old.

Add the fact his NMC and him and his wife love for the bay area. he isn't going anywhere.
Relax. It's a hypothetical scenario that I didn't conjure up.

Besides, in this offseason, it's offensive play/production that's paramount to the Rangers. They have a Vezina goalie and own one of the best defenses in the league. I have a feeling if Sather traded for Marleau, he wants him to not only score goals, but score more than he did the previous season.

Fact's:

1) He's 32 (33 when camp opens)
2) His cap hit is 6.9 million
3) His goals and points declined in in both 2011 and 2012

I can't help it if you guys get mad at seeing the truth written in black and white.

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06-29-2012, 02:23 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Marleau is a better skater, consistently ranked one of the fastest in the league. Marleau is a better defender as well, how many selke votes has Dubinsky got?

Look, we really do not want to trade Marleau, it's counter productive. We need speedy wingers, we are not going to trade one of the top-10 LW in the game and improve.
I don't disagree. The only reason why I could see SJ make this move is to clear cap room and/or slide Del Zotto in to replace Boyle, who'll be 38 when his contract expires.

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06-29-2012, 02:36 PM
  #82
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Good, because I couldn't imagine dealing with two of those contracts. I guess we're lucky because Marleau only has two years left on his deal. Richards has what like 5 years (assuming he retires before the scrap years kick in)? That's brutal, I feel for you guys.
This makes no sense. The Rangers' summer cap is 77 million dollars -- that's almost 27 million in cap space. Richards' cap hit is completely manageable. The Rangers could give Marleau the Crosby contract and still have room left over.

Quote:
He's dropped 14 goals and 19 points in two seasons. <--- Not cherry picked.

He had 0 points in 5 games against the Blues <--- Cherry picked.
Quote:
"There's been times when he's play really well. We don't get into the playoffs without him," general manager Doug Wilson said. "He's scored important goals for this franchise over a long period of time. He'll be the first to tell you he didn't score about St. Louis. Patty is hard on himself. He's a very good hockey player. Did he play as well as he wanted to or that we wanted him to against St. Louis? No."
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/story/1...oor-postseason

Your GM is a cherry picker, I guess.

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06-29-2012, 03:07 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/story/1...oor-postseason

Your GM is a cherry picker, I guess.
He said Marleau didn't play as well as anyone wanted him to, which is true. Marleau even said as much. That's not "under fire." The title is just way off and is, frankly, poor sportswriting.

He talked about a series in which Marleau played poorly, but didn't use it as a basis for his total opinion of Patrick Marleau. That's not cherry picking at all.

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06-29-2012, 03:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
He said Marleau didn't play as well as anyone wanted him to, which is true. Marleau even said as much. That's not "under fire." The title is just way off and is, frankly, poor sportswriting.

He talked about a series in which Marleau played poorly, but didn't use it as a basis for his total opinion of Patrick Marleau. That's not cherry picking at all.
In fact he was pretty clear that he saw it as an abnormality.

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06-29-2012, 03:22 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
He said Marleau didn't play as well as anyone wanted him to, which is true. Marleau even said as much. That's not "under fire." The title is just way off and is, frankly, poor sportswriting.

He talked about a series in which Marleau played poorly, but didn't use it as a basis for his total opinion of Patrick Marleau. That's not cherry picking at all.
Neither did I. I just said that Marleau had a poor postseason in 2012, and the excuse train rolled into the station.

His own GM isnt going to say "He sucked". A GM rarely says anything about his key players. Wilson publicly stating that he did not play well against the Blues. If his own GM thinks that, what are opposing GM's to think when they're trying to trade for him?

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06-29-2012, 03:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by GregSirico View Post
maybe Marleau 6 years ago ... but not now. Dubinsky is the better player ... TODAY

I laughed so hard I cried.

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06-29-2012, 03:35 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Neither did I. I just said that Marleau had a poor postseason in 2012, and the excuse train rolled into the station.

His own GM isnt going to say "He sucked". A GM rarely says anything about his key players. Wilson publicly stating that he did not play well against the Blues. If his own GM thinks that, what are opposing GM's to think when they're trying to trade for him?
Marleau had a bad 5 games. OK, everyone agrees. Even using that 5 game sample size as an argument against Marleau is pointless. I bet I can find a few games in a row where Gretzky (not comparing them at all) didn't score. It just makes no sense to even include that fact in an argument about a player's total abilities.

I see you didn't do thatexactly , but I think there were reactions to a combination of your posts and those of another that got confused.

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06-29-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Again, I'm just looking at it from a GM's standpoint. Some guys lose "it" immediately (Bobby Carpenter, Cheechoo, Kevin Stevens etc) and others do it gradually (often not gracefully).

I'm not denying that Marleau is still a legitimate 1st-line winger on any team in the league. The issue would be the cost to get him, and I think most Rangers fans think Dubinsky and Del Zotto might be a little steep.
You are not looking at it from a GM's standpoint. A GM is much more thorough about evaluations by watching tape and getting scouting reports from the people they pay to do such things. You are looking at a stat sheet and making judgments solely off of that. That is simply not how GM's evaluate players for acquisitions.

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06-29-2012, 03:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
Marleau had a bad 5 games. OK, everyone agrees. Even using that 5 game sample size as an argument against Marleau is pointless. I bet I can find a few games in a row where Gretzky (not comparing them at all) didn't score. It just makes no sense to even include that fact in an argument about a player's total abilities.

I see you didn't do thatexactly , but I think there were reactions to a combination of your posts and those of another that got confused.
I'm a huge Marleau fan. But if I'm trading for him, I'd be a little concerned if he had (by his standards) an average regular season and a poor postseason in one year.

Obviously, Sather could care less about Nash's nonexistent postseason resume since he offered a bigger trade than the one being pitched in this thread. But Marleau is 32/33 with an expiring contract whereas Nash just turned 28 and has some term left.

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06-29-2012, 04:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You are not looking at it from a GM's standpoint. A GM is much more thorough about evaluations by watching tape and getting scouting reports from the people they pay to do such things. You are looking at a stat sheet and making judgments solely off of that. That is simply not how GM's evaluate players for acquisitions.
I have NHL Center Ice, and have had it since 2006 FWIW. I'm never said that Marleau is incapable of being a star again, or that his "game" is eroding.

Marleau is an excellent asset on the PP and is a great puck controller. My concern (as a GM) would be the slow but steady decline in his even-strength production. I watched all 5 games of the Blues series and the effort was there but the production wasnt.

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06-29-2012, 04:50 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
I have NHL Center Ice, and have had it since 2006 FWIW. I'm never said that Marleau is incapable of being a star again, or that his "game" is eroding.

Marleau is an excellent asset on the PP and is a great puck controller. My concern (as a GM) would be the slow but steady decline in his even-strength production. I watched all 5 games of the Blues series and the effort was there but the production wasnt.
His even strength offense may have declined but his defensive play was better especially this season as opposed to last year. Part of the problem with the offensive side is the personnel and the system. For most of the season, there was nobody playing with Marleau that could play at his top speed. The transition game is something that Marleau has thrived in historically and this past year, there was almost no transition game from the team because they were so slow in the top six. When Havlat went down for those few months, Marleau would be the only guy with better than average speed. That is the root of the problem. It is why the team was completely shut down by the Blues...not just the playoffs, but the regular season too.

The Sharks were almost exclusively a cycle team at even strength. Their offense came from there and the power play. Marleau is okay in the cycle game but his speed is his greatest asset and they did not have the horses to play that style.

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06-29-2012, 06:32 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Than why bring up "decline" and other arguments? If you want to keep DZ, fine. Marleau overall play is not declining.

Every single thread involving Marleau turns into "he's 32", "his cap hit is too high", "he's declining". It gets old.

Add the fact his NMC and him and his wife love for the bay area. he isn't going anywhere.
Because that's his reason for lukewarm interest despite the fact he is currently a 1st line player??

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06-29-2012, 08:53 PM
  #93
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Because that's his reason for lukewarm interest despite the fact he is currently a 1st line player??
That's fine. if you have your doubts about another teams player and would rather keep your own, cool. But no need to make generalizations and assumptions of that player that simply aren't true. Marleau is not old and he is still producing top-line numbers, while playing superb on the other side of the puck.

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06-29-2012, 11:37 PM
  #94
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Sometimes, the fact that Marleau barely gets any recognition is a good thing in my opinion. Let him do what he does quietly.

Every time HF mentions Marleau, I see the "decline in points" or just "decline" posts and they are as if we're talking about Marleau when he's 35+ yrs old. He's only 32 people. His minimal contact/High speed transition game is what makes him shine as well as being defensively responsible and I thought he should win a Selke somewhere down the line.

He still scores 30 goals a season and he can still play defense to boot.

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06-30-2012, 03:34 AM
  #95
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Marleau is happy in SJ and has a NMC. If he leaves it'll be in free agency, IMO.

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