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Old
06-29-2012, 10:46 PM
  #51
Paperposts31
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Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
why wouldn't the sharks do this? they get the best player in the trade BY FAR and someone who they can really market in cali. Subban = ratings...nobody cares about boring vlasic or demers.

Because the Sharks need people who are actually good at defense in their own zone. Not someone who can add an extra 36points average a season and run the pp. We already have Boyle and Burns to run the PP. Boyle since he came to the Sharks has averaged 52pt seasons even at his age. Subbans got a few years till that happens. He had a 3 point increase from last year.
Dont get me wrong Subban can run the pp, but Brent Burns put up as many points as Subban and everyone said Burns had a bad year. IMO losing Vlasic for Subban would hurt us more. And then you add Demers?

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06-29-2012, 10:47 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Probably because Vlasic, however boring he may be, fits on this team rather well and he is one of the best defensive d-men in the league. Unless they found a deal where they swap Boyle for someone similar to Vlasic in terms of what they're losing, Subban doesn't have a place here. As good as he is, Boyle and Burns are better right now and that's the team's focus. And your argument for marketing Subban in Cali is ridiculous. Nobody here will give a rat's ass about Subban.
Burns must be a lot better with Subban...what with his one extra point over Subban last year

Subban had significantly more hits, basically the same number of blocked shots, 7 more giveaways and about 55 more takeaways.

Oh and Subban also faced oppositions top lines every night.

So why is Burns better right now? Other than the fact that you're a Sharks fan and he plays for the Sharks that is.

And before you mention Subban doign all that on a terrible team...he was also great in his rookie season 2 years ago and that was on a team that was in the playoffs and he played FAR better than Burns did for San Jose this year.

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06-29-2012, 10:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Paperposts31 View Post
Because the Sharks need people who are actually good at defense in their own zone. Not someone who can add an extra 36points average a season and run the pp. We already have Boyle and Burns to run the PP. Boyle since he came to the Sharks has averaged 52pt seasons even at his age. Subbans got a few years till that happens. He had a 3 point increase from last year.
Dont get me wrong Subban can run the pp, but Brent Burns put up as many points as Subban and everyone said Burns had a bad year. IMO losing Vlasic for Subban would hurt us more. And then you add Demers?
Why do you keep claiming PK isn't good at defence in his own zone?

It's completely false and you're just embarrassing yourself.

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06-29-2012, 10:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Paperposts31 View Post
Because the Sharks need people who are actually good at defense in their own zone. Not someone who can add an extra 36points average a season and run the pp. We already have Boyle and Burns to run the PP. Boyle since he came to the Sharks has averaged 52pt seasons even at his age. Subbans got a few years till that happens. He had a 3 point increase from last year.
Dont get me wrong Subban can run the pp, but Brent Burns put up as many points as Subban and everyone said Burns had a bad year. IMO losing Vlasic for Subban would hurt us more. And then you add Demers?

LOL Subban is so bad on defense that on a last place team he was +9 while logging 24 minutes a night. I watched Subban play for 2.5 seasons and his defensive game has improved drastically...then again i wouldn't expect you to understand that... he's also 22 years old. Brent Burns is a career minus -13 player, and his +/- was worse than Subbans last year on a team that was significantly better.

Vlasic is such a ROCK on defense right? He better be because he does nothing offensively. He's a dime a dozen defensive 3-4 dman.

We'll keep our franchise dman in Subban who does everything and you keep keep your 3 goal a season dman and that 150lb demers kid.

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Old
06-29-2012, 11:02 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
it wouldn't be long before Subban supplanted both Boyle and Burns on the Right side, and in the meantime I do suspect he'd have no big issues playing on his "weak" side.

in the proposed trade, Demers is traded away, replaced with Diaz/Weber

and like any other smart GM in the league, if you have a chance to add a future Norris candidate while giving up a lesser player(s) in return, you do it and go about adjusting your roster accordingly after the fact.
Boyle, sure. Burns, I doubt it. However, the trade significantly weakens their defensive ability by doing so. The whole Diaz/Weber/Demers thing isn't really significant to the Sharks. Even with that whole swap, neither of the two Habs' d-men are going to crack the lineup so it's irrelevant.

As for future Norris candidate...yeah, sure. But even if we believe that dream, that's not going to be for quite a few years and long after the Sharks' window. Not to say that Subban couldn't contribute now but when they have Burns and Boyle, they don't need Subban for the immediate future. They need Vlasic's defensive ability more. They're trying to win now...not worry about the future.

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Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
LOL @ nobody in San Jose caring about Subban. Of course they don't...i doubt 96.7% of the shark fans can even name a team in the Eastern conference. Subban in San Jose would be your most popular player by a huge margin. With that said, nobody in Montreal gives a "rat's ass about the ..." nah too easy.
You can generalize all you want. However, the thought that Subban would be the most popular player by a huge margin is nothing but blind speculation. There's nothing about Subban that would make him popular here except that he's a good player. There's nothing special about him that would make him more liked than the other great players that have played here.

I couldn't care less what Montreal could give a rat's ass about but it's hilarious that you assume something like that based on absolutely nothing. You don't know the first thing about this area nor what makes a popular player here. You should just stop talking out of your rear and let it go.

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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Burns must be a lot better with Subban...what with his one extra point over Subban last year

Subban had significantly more hits, basically the same number of blocked shots, 7 more giveaways and about 55 more takeaways.

Oh and Subban also faced oppositions top lines every night.

So why is Burns better right now? Other than the fact that you're a Sharks fan and he plays for the Sharks that is.

And before you mention Subban doign all that on a terrible team...he was also great in his rookie season 2 years ago and that was on a team that was in the playoffs and he played FAR better than Burns did for San Jose this year.
Burns is a lot better. He had a slow start going from a team like the Wild to the Sharks and had a very good second half both offensively and defensively. You can look at all the real-time stats that you want but the bottom line is that the reason why Subban has more hits, more takeaways, and more blocked shots is because his team didn't have the puck nearly as much as the Sharks. And Burns had his share of facing top competition over the course of the season and did admirably. The Sharks have the luxury of putting multiple d-men against other team's top lines because they have Boyle and Vlasic who do so regularly as well. They don't need to wear one out especially when they have options and Montreal doesn't.

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Old
06-29-2012, 11:15 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
why wouldn't the sharks do this? they get the best player in the trade BY FAR and someone who they can really market in cali. Subban = ratings...nobody cares about boring vlasic or demers.
Easy. Vlasic is extremely responsible defensively. I couldn't care less about ratings in Cali. He's our #2. He plays his game quietly but effectively.

I care about Demers and Vlasic. Both are important to us; Demers will eventually replace Boyle if Boyle retires or doesn't re-sign.

I don't think the Habs make good trading partners with us.

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Old
06-29-2012, 11:17 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
why wouldn't the sharks do this? they get the best player in the trade BY FAR and someone who they can really market in cali. Subban = ratings...nobody cares about boring vlasic or demers.
Care to elaborate on why he would be soooo great for marketing?

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Old
06-29-2012, 11:21 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clownquestionbro View Post
Dude they're sharks fans..I think the oakland a's are playing now.
Keep generalizing why doncha?

Point is, we can't afford to trade away Vlasic or Demers, let alone both. Who cares if Vlasic is a boring player (I find his game pretty fun actually) or isn't flashy. He does his job well and is arguably our best defensive Dman. And as for Demers, he bad a bad year because playing with Colin ****ing White can screw up your game. I'd give him a few more years before writing him off.

Looking at the return of Subban+Weber+Diaz...
How does this help us, exactly. Weber and Diaz aren't gonna fill Vlasic's or Demer's spots. While Subban is nice, I would probably trade someone else waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before I trade Vlasic.

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06-30-2012, 01:13 AM
  #59
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[QUOTE=Pinkfloyd;51750291

Burns is a lot better. He had a slow start going from a team like the Wild to the Sharks and had a very good second half both offensively and defensively. You can look at all the real-time stats that you want but the bottom line is that the reason why Subban has more hits, more takeaways, and more blocked shots is because his team didn't have the puck nearly as much as the Sharks. And Burns had his share of facing top competition over the course of the season and did admirably. The Sharks have the luxury of putting multiple d-men against other team's top lines because they have Boyle and Vlasic who do so regularly as well. They don't need to wear one out especially when they have options and Montreal doesn't.[/QUOTE]

LoL

Lots of blah blah blah and then you seem to imply that Burns is better than Subban because he...was on a better team than Montreal last year?

Interesting story also...The 23 year old PK Subban has 38.95 points per 82 games compared to 33.7 per 82 games played for Burns.

In 05/06 Burns was 7th on the team for d-men in ES time per game.
In 06/07 Burns was 5th " "
In 07/08 Burns was 3rd "
In 08/09 Burns was 5th "
In 09/10 Burns was 4th "
Finally in 2010/2011 Burns was the highest playing d-man on Minnesota...a team that was well out of the playoffs.

In 5 years before that he'd never been seen by coaches as better than the 3rd most reliable 5 on 5 defender.

Subban was 5th in his rookie season, and 2nd this past season. I expect he will be either first or 2nd this year as well.

2 years ago in the playoffs PK played nearly 22 minutes at even strength in the games. As a rookie he was playing shut down minutes and he did a fantastic job and was easily the best d-man in that series (though Chara being injured for the first 2 games helped in that)

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Old
06-30-2012, 01:58 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
LoL

Lots of blah blah blah and then you seem to imply that Burns is better than Subban because he...was on a better team than Montreal last year?

Interesting story also...The 23 year old PK Subban has 38.95 points per 82 games compared to 33.7 per 82 games played for Burns.

In 05/06 Burns was 7th on the team for d-men in ES time per game.
In 06/07 Burns was 5th " "
In 07/08 Burns was 3rd "
In 08/09 Burns was 5th "
In 09/10 Burns was 4th "
Finally in 2010/2011 Burns was the highest playing d-man on Minnesota...a team that was well out of the playoffs.

In 5 years before that he'd never been seen by coaches as better than the 3rd most reliable 5 on 5 defender.

Subban was 5th in his rookie season, and 2nd this past season. I expect he will be either first or 2nd this year as well.

2 years ago in the playoffs PK played nearly 22 minutes at even strength in the games. As a rookie he was playing shut down minutes and he did a fantastic job and was easily the best d-man in that series (though Chara being injured for the first 2 games helped in that)
I'm guessing you don't know that Burns was drafted as a foward and was converted to a defenseman. Why would they throw him to the wolves by giving him the top competition when he is new at defense. Maybe you should look things up before you go talking out of your behind again.

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Old
06-30-2012, 02:09 AM
  #61
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Easily pass. Contrary to what's being said, Weber also has top 4 PMD upside just like Demers. Diaz does as well.

The only two really good pieces are subban and vlasic. Tbh, I like vlasic and would love him on the habs, especially by subban's side.

Now that the value is gathered(by my own opinion obviously), we can argue the overall. I feel habs lose this deal as they give up the better d-man and more pieces(i'd rather have diaz than demers to be honest, maybe i'd swap them, but I hardly care enough to add).

Still, don't see the need for either team to do this. Vlasic and Subban are both key pieces to their team and neither is really available.

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06-30-2012, 03:23 AM
  #62
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All the bickering is priceless.

The simple truth is MTL wouldn't do this. Nor would San Jose - both have different needs. No need to get your knickers in a twist like rival fans are denigrating your players.

SJ would be silly to move Vlasic right now and likewise Montreal with Subban.

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06-30-2012, 10:09 AM
  #63
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Subban is Montreal's #1 and the catalyst of their offense so they likely say no.

Vlasic and Demers are 2 of SJ's top 4 with Vlasic being considered one of the best shutdown guys in the NHL. Also with this, SJ pretty much already has two #1 dmen in Boyle and Burns. They need a strictly shutdown guy like Vlasic. So SJ probably says no.

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06-30-2012, 10:12 AM
  #64
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The Habs easily pass.Demer is nothing more than a Weber or a Diaz and were giving up both for him.
Vlasic while being good does not help our team as much as it hurts it by losing P.K.
We have our own version of Vlasic in Gorges.So adding in another defensive D-man with no offensive upside for our best all around D-man would be a huge step backwards for the Habs.
Again no ty.

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06-30-2012, 04:41 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
LoL

Lots of blah blah blah and then you seem to imply that Burns is better than Subban because he...was on a better team than Montreal last year?

Interesting story also...The 23 year old PK Subban has 38.95 points per 82 games compared to 33.7 per 82 games played for Burns.

In 05/06 Burns was 7th on the team for d-men in ES time per game.
In 06/07 Burns was 5th " "
In 07/08 Burns was 3rd "
In 08/09 Burns was 5th "
In 09/10 Burns was 4th "
Finally in 2010/2011 Burns was the highest playing d-man on Minnesota...a team that was well out of the playoffs.

In 5 years before that he'd never been seen by coaches as better than the 3rd most reliable 5 on 5 defender.

Subban was 5th in his rookie season, and 2nd this past season. I expect he will be either first or 2nd this year as well.

2 years ago in the playoffs PK played nearly 22 minutes at even strength in the games. As a rookie he was playing shut down minutes and he did a fantastic job and was easily the best d-man in that series (though Chara being injured for the first 2 games helped in that)
Your use of real time stats only shows that the reason why Subban had better numbers there is because his team didn't have the puck as much as Burns' team. That is simply the truth. It's not an accident that most of the teams with the fewest hits are the ones that have the puck the most. You don't like the explanation? Tough tuna boats.

You can use that points per 82 stat if you like but all you're doing is trying to take context out of it. PK Subban is given free reign to play in a far more open system than what Burns was developed in. Jacques Lemaire's teams were always ones that had the most conservative systems and, in turn, least productive offenses around the league. You act surprised that Burns took a while to get to this point. When you're drafted as a forward and are asked to convert to D, that's going to happen. PK has had a nice head start on Burns in terms of learning the position relative to where Burns was at PK's age.

You want to point to a playoff series two years ago with an extremely small sample size as some big thing...it's not. I prefer Burns and what he brings to the table and Subban is not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. It's a simple matter of what is better for the Sharks and their goals right now. They are a team that wants to win now. PK is a very good player in his own right but Burns offers everything that PK does with more experience. Adding Subban with Boyle and Burns already on the right side makes no sense and certainly not at the cost being discussed here. It's simply foolish.

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Old
06-30-2012, 04:45 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Your use of real time stats only shows that the reason why Subban had better numbers there is because his team didn't have the puck as much as Burns' team. That is simply the truth. It's not an accident that most of the teams with the fewest hits are the ones that have the puck the most. You don't like the explanation? Tough tuna boats.

You can use that points per 82 stat if you like but all you're doing is trying to take context out of it. PK Subban is given free reign to play in a far more open system than what Burns was developed in. Jacques Lemaire's teams were always ones that had the most conservative systems and, in turn, least productive offenses around the league. You act surprised that Burns took a while to get to this point. When you're drafted as a forward and are asked to convert to D, that's going to happen. PK has had a nice head start on Burns in terms of learning the position relative to where Burns was at PK's age.

You want to point to a playoff series two years ago with an extremely small sample size as some big thing...it's not. I prefer Burns and what he brings to the table and Subban is not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. It's a simple matter of what is better for the Sharks and their goals right now. They are a team that wants to win now. PK is a very good player in his own right but Burns offers everything that PK does with more experience. Adding Subban with Boyle and Burns already on the right side makes no sense and certainly not at the cost being discussed here. It's simply foolish.
Hahahhaah

WHAT?

Have you ever seen a Jacques Martin coached team play?

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06-30-2012, 04:54 PM
  #67
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Hahahhaah

WHAT?

Have you ever seen a Jacques Martin coached team play?
I have and it's more open than Jacques Lemaire. Sorry.

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Old
06-30-2012, 07:36 PM
  #68
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Easy. Vlasic is extremely responsible defensively. I couldn't care less about ratings in Cali. He's our #2. He plays his game quietly but effectively.

I care about Demers and Vlasic. Both are important to us; Demers will eventually replace Boyle if Boyle retires or doesn't re-sign.

I don't think the Habs make good trading partners with us.
Maybe I haven't seen enough of Demers, but there's no way he can replace Boyle.

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Old
06-30-2012, 07:45 PM
  #69
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Knock off the attacks on fanbases or the next round will include points. Let's try to keep this one open please.

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