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06-30-2012, 02:00 PM
  #151
HockeySensible
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
No he wasn't they lost in the first round.

Leddy was terrible in his own end

Kruger can't be a 2nd line center in the NHL yet.

No many problems aren't solved by the guys they have just improving.

The Hawks are still small, weak, lacking physicality and in need of goaltending.
Corey Crawford was significantly better than the man at the other side of the rink in that series. He was more than good enough for Chicago to beat Vancouver.. but, that was Vancouver's year; they showed up in game 7 and Chicago didn't until the final 2 minutes.


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06-30-2012, 02:12 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Chicago doesn't need to find/add more "core" players.
Yes they do. This core has been weighed, measured, and found wanting, and you don't change that with fringe ("support") players. Whether it is a quality starting goalie or just plain more core player depth at forward, it's going to need to be improved or yet another first round exit, if we even make the playoffs.

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06-30-2012, 02:16 PM
  #153
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I think the key is to find 'core' quality players to fill 'fringe' roles. That's when you have a cup quality team. That's why I've wanted the Hawks to consolidate their assets and trade up for more blue chip prospects in the draft.

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06-30-2012, 02:22 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Yes they do. This core has been weighed, measured, and found wanting, and you don't change that with fringe ("support") players. Whether it is a quality starting goalie or just plain more core player depth at forward, it's going to need to be improved or yet another first round exit, if we even make the playoffs.
What do you define as the "core"? An entire team?

Chicago's "core" depth at forward includes 1 top-9 forward and 4 top-liners. There's nothing wrong with the core at forward, but you could make an argument that the depth isn't there or the support for those core players.

Chicago needs better players in support roles, not more "core" quality players.. though, I wouldn't be opposed to Suter, obviously.

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06-30-2012, 03:09 PM
  #155
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I have already explained core players and the difference between what we have now and a couple of recent cup winners.

You get better support players when you already have a capable core. We do not.

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06-30-2012, 03:28 PM
  #156
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Here's what we know

This team (including coaches), regardless of how you define its "core", hasn't shown itself capable of getting out of the first round. Considering that teams, not cores, win Cups, that needs to change.

I'm anxious to see what Stan does tomorrow. Most members of the media are indicating it will be something, the question now is just, what?

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06-30-2012, 03:57 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
I have already explained core players and the difference between what we have now and a couple of recent cup winners.

You get better support players when you already have a capable core. We do not.
I know it's a relative term, but I believe our "core" - Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook - is top notch. That's the top third of your starting skaters.

Our biggest problem is that our second tier - third wheel types in the top six, and third line talent - consisting of four forwards and two defenseman - has one proven quality player in that role in Bolland, a young defenseman with consistency issues in Leddy, and a total unknown in Stalberg. Our third tier - consisting of fourth line players and third pairing defenseman - is fine.

It's that second unit of supporting cast types that needs work.

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06-30-2012, 05:52 PM
  #158
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Agreed. We depth on our third line.

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06-30-2012, 06:53 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Yes they do. This core has been weighed, measured, and found wanting, and you don't change that with fringe ("support") players. Whether it is a quality starting goalie or just plain more core player depth at forward, it's going to need to be improved or yet another first round exit, if we even make the playoffs.
Yep, this core stinks. They'll never win anything. Time to start making some trades. I was thinking

Patrick Sharp for Jonathan Bernier + Jake Muzzin (great 23 year old Defenseman trapped behind amazing Kings the glorious Stanley Cup Champions for now and always)

Patrick Kane for Tomas Plekanec + 2013 Montreal 1st. We better do this one first. Kane is an alcoholic and will be a 30 point player next year and out of the League next year. This would be a major steal. I just hope Bergevin is dumb enough to take it.

Duncan Keith for Morgan Rielly + Korbinian Holzer. Rielly has been compared to Keith. But he'll be better. He has Erik Karlsson upside. Holzer is a beast.

Brent Seabrook for Justin Schultz + Linus Omark. Wow, Schultz is the next big thing. Future Norris winner guaranteed. Omark has insane skill.

Marian Hossa for Vincent Lecavalier. Hossa has been on the team the last two years and that has clearly shown to be a recipe for failure. Lecavalier is a Cup Champion.

Jonathan Toews plus Brandon Saad for Jonathan Huberdeau. I was hoping to do a straight up swap but there's no way Florida takes that. I mean this is Jonathan freaking Huberdeau we're talking about here.


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06-30-2012, 07:07 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I know it's a relative term, but I believe our "core" - Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook - is top notch. That's the top third of your starting skaters.

Our biggest problem is that our second tier - third wheel types in the top six, and third line talent - consisting of four forwards and two defenseman - has one proven quality player in that role in Bolland, a young defenseman with consistency issues in Leddy, and a total unknown in Stalberg. Our third tier - consisting of fourth line players and third pairing defenseman - is fine.

It's that second unit of supporting cast types that needs work.
Nailed it!

The exciting opinion is to go out and get guys like Suter, Parise, etc. The unpopular opinion is to sit and wait for our glut of prospects to filter themselves out/into supporting roles. Unfortunately for those who love the excitement of big signings, Bowman is of the unpopular opinion.

I would love to see our team go and get Suter and Parise, but ultimately I know it's the more pragmatic plan to build from within. We have the talent to be competitive for the next 5 years at least, we just need 3-6 players from our prospect pool to pan out into supporting roles. A 2nd line player or two, a 3rd liner or two, a 2nd pairing defenseman (like Leddy solidifying himself) and we're gravy as far as players go.

Goalies are a different story.

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06-30-2012, 07:35 PM
  #161
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How many top forwards do most teams have? I'm talking point-per-game players that can get 70+ points? We have 4. What we need are the solid 2nd and 3rd line types that play physical and score the ugly goals in tight games. The guys good for 20+ goals and 50+ points. There are not many free-agents like that out there and you won't get those types by trading Stalberg or Hammer. You need to give to get

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06-30-2012, 07:39 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by tomcat24 View Post
How many top forwards do most teams have? I'm talking point-per-game players that can get 70+ points? We have 4. What we need are the solid 2nd and 3rd line types that play physical and score the ugly goals in tight games. The guys good for 20+ goals and 50+ points. There are not many free-agents like that out there and you won't get those types by trading Stalberg or Hammer. You need to give to get
We need 3rd line guys that punish the other team physically like Ladd, Versteeg, and Buff did. We also need guys that can PK so Toews and Hossa don't have to waste so much energy.

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06-30-2012, 08:08 PM
  #163
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That's the thing, on the Cup team they were 3rd line guys but not on most teams. That is the kind of depth you need. I want to build another great team by having Young and skilled guys like that who wear the D down and 3 lines that keep coming at you in waves

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06-30-2012, 08:11 PM
  #164
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Building from within is fine, but you have to use free agency and trades as well or you will never fill your holes; especially your immediate ones. We won the Cup with Sharp as the second line center, but we had so much strength up front it didn't matter. Arguably though, that hole at center has now been there for 3 years and counting. Who's going to fill it from within? McNeil? Kayes? Pirri? McNeil seems most likely, but he is probably at least a year or two out from even making the club. Stan has to get more done (especially while we still have a decent core).

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06-30-2012, 08:13 PM
  #165
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You don't need 1st and 2nd line guys on the 3rd line... you just need players that are very good in the role they're put into. You need 3rd line guys that can be relied upon to shut down the other teams lines. You need 4th line guys who will hit and wear down the defense of the other team and can chip in goals every now and then. You need a 2nd line that can put some points up when the 1st line is slumping. You need a 1st line that can be relied upon relatively consistently to score goals.

Right now, we don't have that. I do believe that guys like Saad, Shaw, Jayes, Smith, Beach can be those kinds of players. Sucks for now, but patience is key. It'll pan out for us.

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06-30-2012, 08:19 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
You don't need 1st and 2nd line guys on the 3rd line... you just need players that are very good in the role they're put into. You need 3rd line guys that can be relied upon to shut down the other teams lines. You need 4th line guys who will hit and wear down the defense of the other team and can chip in goals every now and then. You need a 2nd line that can put some points up when the 1st line is slumping. You need a 1st line that can be relied upon relatively consistently to score goals.

Right now, we don't have that. I do believe that guys like Saad, Shaw, Jayes, Smith, Beach can be those kinds of players. Sucks for now, but patience is key. It'll pan out for us.
As a team that can be competing now you can't wait for prospects to pan out because if they don't pan out now you've wasted 2-3 waiting and your in the same place you where 2-3 years ago with not enough talent to win and a bunch of dead weight that would be tough to move.

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06-30-2012, 08:28 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
You don't need 1st and 2nd line guys on the 3rd line... you just need players that are very good in the role they're put into. You need 3rd line guys that can be relied upon to shut down the other teams lines. You need 4th line guys who will hit and wear down the defense of the other team and can chip in goals every now and then. You need a 2nd line that can put some points up when the 1st line is slumping. You need a 1st line that can be relied upon relatively consistently to score goals.

Right now, we don't have that. I do believe that guys like Saad, Shaw, Jayes, Smith, Beach can be those kinds of players. Sucks for now, but patience is key. It'll pan out for us.
We'll see if Shaw's year was fluke but he's exactly the type of guy you want on your 3rd or 4th line.

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06-30-2012, 08:29 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
As a team that can be competing now you can't wait for prospects to pan out because if they don't pan out now you've wasted 2-3 waiting and your in the same place you where 2-3 years ago with not enough talent to win and a bunch of dead weight that would be tough to move.
I'm not saying that we can't or shouldn't make FA moves every year... but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to any player if I'm Bowman. You get guys who can fill roles and fill them more than adequately and hope that your prospects will take their spots eventually.

We're in a bit of a transition right now, as much as others would disagree or think that we're not. We have a glut of prospects that should pan out to be top 9 players and 2nd/3rd pairing defensemen. You don't go out and sign a guy like Suter/Parise who will be part of our core with the guys we have now.

I know others will disagree with me, and that's fine, but I see a clear plan in Bowman's actions. I can see why some would be angered by it, but to me, I'm perfectly okay with it. It's not about right now when you have the prospects we have. You put together the absolute best team you can via FA and trades every year but realistically, you're not putting together an all-star caliber team every year. You can't always overpay for FA and roster players from other teams just to fill one spot. To be successful, you have to draft well. Those prospects that you develop are key in putting together a cup-winning team. We've all seen it happen in 2010... it just takes some patience.

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06-30-2012, 08:38 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
I'm not saying that we can't or shouldn't make FA moves every year... but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to any player if I'm Bowman. You get guys who can fill roles and fill them more than adequately and hope that your prospects will take their spots eventually.

We're in a bit of a transition right now, as much as others would disagree or think that we're not. We have a glut of prospects that should pan out to be top 9 players and 2nd/3rd pairing defensemen. You don't go out and sign a guy like Suter/Parise who will be part of our core with the guys we have now.

I know others will disagree with me, and that's fine, but I see a clear plan in Bowman's actions. I can see why some would be angered by it, but to me, I'm perfectly okay with it. It's not about right now when you have the prospects we have. You put together the absolute best team you can via FA and trades every year but realistically, you're not putting together an all-star caliber team every year. You can't always overpay for FA and roster players from other teams just to fill one spot. To be successful, you have to draft well. Those prospects that you develop are key in putting together a cup-winning team. We've all seen it happen in 2010... it just takes some patience.
Yes you do because Parise and Suter are sure things and our prospects are question marks.

Plus the Hawks have 3 prospects at best that are top level prospects, the rest could be better then average but won't be 2 line or 2 pairing players.

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07-01-2012, 02:16 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Yep, this core stinks. They'll never win anything. Time to start making some trades. I was thinking

Patrick Sharp for Jonathan Bernier + Jake Muzzin (great 23 year old Defenseman trapped behind amazing Kings the glorious Stanley Cup Champions for now and always)

Patrick Kane for Tomas Plekanec + 2013 Montreal 1st. We better do this one first. Kane is an alcoholic and will be a 30 point player next year and out of the League next year. This would be a major steal. I just hope Bergevin is dumb enough to take it.

Duncan Keith for Morgan Rielly + Korbinian Holzer. Rielly has been compared to Keith. But he'll be better. He has Erik Karlsson upside. Holzer is a beast.

Brent Seabrook for Justin Schultz + Linus Omark. Wow, Schultz is the next big thing. Future Norris winner guaranteed. Omark has insane skill.

Marian Hossa for Vincent Lecavalier. Hossa has been on the team the last two years and that has clearly shown to be a recipe for failure. Lecavalier is a Cup Champion.

Jonathan Toews plus Brandon Saad for Jonathan Huberdeau. I was hoping to do a straight up swap but there's no way Florida takes that. I mean this is Jonathan freaking Huberdeau we're talking about here.

What was the point of this steaming pile?

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07-01-2012, 06:19 AM
  #171
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The importance of something like chemistry is a bit overstated I think.
I disagree. Chemistry and being a team is more important than anything else. You need to be and play as a team, have chemistry and show effort and heart. Do everything you can for the guy next to you and for your team. That's something the Hawks miss since winning the Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
No he wasn't they lost in the first round.

Leddy was terrible in his own end

Kruger can't be a 2nd line center in the NHL yet.

No many problems aren't solved by the guys they have just improving.

The Hawks are still small, weak, lacking physicality and in need of goaltending.
Crawford was the only player that showed up ALL YEAR long including the POs. THE ONLY PLAYER that was good.
10/11 Craw on the 11/12 Hawks and the Hawks make it past the Yotes and first round.

Leddy was not terrible. Boynton was terrible, Quint was terrible, Cullimore was terrible, Steve Poabst was terrible. Leddy is young and needs more experience. He made some "rookie" mistakes. BTW, Leddy is a PMD - offensiv minded. He was already Top30 in D scoring. Leddy is fine and will only get better.


you say the Hawks still need goaltending... that's right. This problem would be solved if Craw has a bounce back season and plays like he did in 10/11.

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