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Trading Staal and signing Ryan Suter

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Old
07-01-2012, 10:40 PM
  #226
GWOW
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Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
Can we trade fans instead of players?

I can't wait to watch him get back to form next year and remind some people here why he is an integral part of our core.
And when the offense shuts down in the CF, what will you be saying then?

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07-01-2012, 10:44 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
I'd love to hear you explain that one. I mean, maybe with facts?
How about the fact that they were 21-20-1 in 42 games (more than half a regular season) from March 1 through May 25 against NJ? In that span they allowed 3 or more goals 21 times, or half of the games, which was well above their overall average. They also gave up multiple 3rd period or multi goal leads.

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07-01-2012, 10:49 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
No, that's not how it works. The Kings had Doughty, Scuderi, Johnson, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, and Martinez before the Carter deal. Voynov and Martinez were both pressing, due to their play, for time in the top 4. That means they had 6 defenseman who could play top 4 minutes immediately. SIX of them.

We have 4 top 4 guys, one guy who is a 7th D and possibly one top 6 guy in Erixon.
Mitchell, Greene and Scuderi are three veterans. Two were UFA acquisitions and one was a trade throw-in.

The Rangers can trade Staal, keep Girardi and McDonagh as their top pair, pair Del Zotto with a veteran UFA as the 2nd pair, and add another veteran to play with Erixon on the bottom.

And when I say "veteran" I don't mean frail scrubs like Eminger and Woywitka

Adding two veteran UFA d-men and a Nash/Ryan type while keeping McDonagh, Girardi and Del Zotto, and giving minutes to Erixon would not set the organization back at all.

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07-01-2012, 10:51 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
How about the fact that they were 21-20-1 in 42 games (more than half a regular season) from March 1 through May 25 against NJ? In that span they allowed 3 or more goals 21 times, or half of the games, which was well above their overall average. They also gave up multiple 3rd period or multi goal leads.
What does the above record have anything to do with the defense playing outstanding when Staal was injured?

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07-01-2012, 10:54 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Mitchell, Greene and Scuderi are three veterans. Two were UFA acquisitions and one was a trade throw-in.

The Rangers can trade Staal, keep Girardi and McDonagh as their top pair, pair Del Zotto with a veteran UFA as the 2nd pair, and add another veteran to play with Erixon on the bottom.

And when I say "veteran" I don't mean frail scrubs like Eminger and Woywitka

Adding two veteran UFA d-men and a Nash/Ryan type while keeping McDonagh, Girardi and Del Zotto, and giving minutes to Erixon would not set the organization back at all.
*sigh* the point is not how they acquired their D. The point is that they only moved any of their D when it was proven to them that they had the guys pushing for the minutes. They weren't speculating, as you are here. They really did have the players. We can bring in UFAs all we want. There's no guarantee they'll be successful. We can plug in Erixon on the roster all we want. There's no guarantee he's even an NHL player at this point. There's a big difference between knowing something to be true and just believing it to be true.

So you could very well be right. But on a team whose success hinges on their defensive abilities and whose success wont hinge on their offense even if they do trade for Nash or Ryan, it's not a risk worth taking.

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07-01-2012, 10:56 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
What does the above record have anything to do with the defense playing outstanding when Staal was injured?
I'm not worried about the Rangers success from October to December at this point. This is going to be a top 5 seed next year. I'm worried about their success from April to June.

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07-01-2012, 10:59 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
And when the offense shuts down in the CF, what will you be saying then?
Oh, you mean like this year expect it was our defense (and Hank) that shut down when our offense finally started to get going?

We cannot ride McD and Girardi for 100 games.

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Old
07-01-2012, 11:02 PM
  #233
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Why do you keep bringing up what the Kings did? The Kings have an entirely different team than us. Just because they are the last team to win the Stanley Cup doesn't mean we need to copy their blueprint verbatim.

Staal should not be traded, he is our best all around defenseman when healthy, period. Girardi and McDonagh are amazing but Staal is the best. Look at his play prior to his concussion. It just doesn't make sense at this point. Deadline time, if we have Erixon and/or McIlrath ready to step up, maybe moving Del Zotto or Staal makes sense. Now it doesn't.

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07-01-2012, 11:04 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
*sigh* the point is not how they acquired their D. The point is that they only moved any of their D when it was proven to them that they had the guys pushing for the minutes. They weren't speculating, as you are here. They really did have the players. We can bring in UFAs all we want. There's no guarantee they'll be successful. We can plug in Erixon on the roster all we want. There's no guarantee he's even an NHL player at this point. There's a big difference between knowing something to be true and just believing it to be true.

So you could very well be right. But on a team whose success hinges on their defensive abilities and whose success wont hinge on their offense even if they do trade for Nash or Ryan, it's not a risk worth taking.
That's why I used the Quebec example. I'm sure Lacroix didnt want to trade Sundin and Nolan, but those two trades (terrible in retrospect) gave the Av's two Cups. They traded Nolan for Ozolinsh because they had a stacked team with no PMD. They traded Sundin for Clark (who was flipped for Lemieux) because they were a soft team.

They traded two of the game's best young forwards because they already had Sakic, Forsberg, Kamensky, Kovalenko, Young and Rucinsky.

I love Staal, and he was clearly the Rangers best d-man in the playoffs. But he has a ton of worth and could get a guy like Ryan or Nash straight up. Sather would never do it but I would take that risk.

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07-01-2012, 11:08 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Affinity View Post
Oh, you mean like this year expect it was our defense (and Hank) that shut down when our offense finally started to get going?

We cannot ride McD and Girardi for 100 games.
Acquiring a bottom paring that can play 12-15 mins a night would alleviate the stress on the top pair. The defense was tired in the postseason because Torts was only rotating 4 guys for two months, which was because Sather didnt address the void at the deadline.

And I'm of the opinion that Lundqvist's mediocre play in March and in the CF was on him and not the defense.

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07-01-2012, 11:11 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by jerseyjinx94 View Post
Why do you keep bringing up what the Kings did? The Kings have an entirely different team than us. Just because they are the last team to win the Stanley Cup doesn't mean we need to copy their blueprint verbatim.

Staal should not be traded, he is our best all around defenseman when healthy, period. Girardi and McDonagh are amazing but Staal is the best. Look at his play prior to his concussion. It just doesn't make sense at this point. Deadline time, if we have Erixon and/or McIlrath ready to step up, maybe moving Del Zotto or Staal makes sense. Now it doesn't.
The OP's hypothetical scenario is similar to what the Kings were faced with. They moved a highly-valuable defenseman for offense.

Playing this scenario sounds like "trade Staal for Nash/Ryan and sign Suter"

I mean, it's hard to turn that one down, no matter what Staal has done for the franchise

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07-02-2012, 01:23 AM
  #237
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This idea is very counterproductive. It's going to be hard enough to retain two of McDonagh, Staal or Del Zotto as they get ready to hit UFA years; signing Suter complicates it to the point where you may only keep Suter. It also makes the cap pretty tight assuming Nash comes back or something similar for Staal.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:27 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
why in the world to people want to change a winning formula?

it actually pisses me off. Staal is great.
okay so... we may not have been fighting for 8th place, but also fought our ***** off every round.

we made it to the ECF, but look at the trip to get there. we had to win 2 games in a row to beat 7th place in 7. richards scored a goal with 6.6s in a game 5 that would've put us down 3-2 again against 6th place. we lost against the devils in 6.

yes, we did great for 82. we were the most consistent team in the first 82, but we lost the prize because of depth. gaborik's injury+50 minutes in 1 night for defensemen sucked. we certainly didn't have a winning playoff formula.

things are in fact changing whether you like it or not. we have kreider. gaborik is out to start the season. we lost prust who was a huge role guy. every other team in the league is looking to improve to match our regular 82 from last season. if every team improves and we stay the same. we're not winning the cup.

fairly sure that we had a better win % without staal than with him(concussion of course) if anybody wants to crunch those numbers... but staal was not really a huge part of that winning formulae... not until the playoffs anyway.

that said. we need to improve somewhere and the most important place is offense.

think from henk's perspective: if he lets in more than 2 goals on any night we will in most cases lose the hockey game.

we're not in the market for parise. w/ suter we could trade staal for offensive talent. we shouldn't under any circumstances go 8m in on suter. i'd be upset if we did, but in the same-- staal could fetch us a pretty penny on the market-- possibly even jeff skinner(doubtful).

if we were to move staal we would need another top 4 defenseman to replace him... and if we're trading him for a top 6 forward, then we need to find another defenseman on the open market (or move some lesser pieces, but meh). hence why suter "COULD" be a viable option, but the price doesn't fit.

i'm not advocating trading staal and getting suter. the price isn't even ballpark. i am just explaining why we would greatly benefit from changing that 'winning formula'.

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07-02-2012, 05:23 AM
  #239
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Not really advocating this but looking at it through a cap perspective

Hypothetically - say we would sign Suter at 8 M per
Trade Marc Staal, JT Miller and 2 1st rounders to Carolina for Jeff Skinner
Sign Peter Mueller (2 years at 2,4 M) and Ruslan Fedotenko (1 year at 1,4 M)
Agree to keep Stralman (qo) and MDZ (2,3 for 2 years)
Erixon (or McIllrath) graduate

I like the looks of this team! But it is not going to happen...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

FORWARDS
Jeff Skinner ($1.400m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Peter Mueller ($2.400m)
Mike Rupp ($1.500m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Arron Asham ($1.000m) rotating with Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.400m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($8.000m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.300m)
Tim Erixon ($1.750m) / Anton Stralman ($0.945m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)

IR
Michael Sauer ($1.250m)
Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)

BUYOUTS
Chris Drury ($1.667m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000
CAP PAYROLL: $66,453,334
BONUSES: $2,600,000 (deferrable)
CAP SPACE (24-man roster including 2 players on IR): $3,746,666
IR - $8,750,000


Last edited by BBKers: 07-02-2012 at 05:35 AM.
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Old
07-02-2012, 05:31 AM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Trade Marc Staal, JT Miller and a 1st to Carolina for Jeff Skinner

I wouldnt trade Staal for Skinner straight up let alone part with Miller + 1st.

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07-02-2012, 05:42 AM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
I wouldnt trade Staal for Skinner straight up let alone part with Miller + 1st.
Gotta give to get
Skinner has 107 points in 146 games so far in the NHL - this being accomplished as a teenager on a mediocre Carolina team!
I see him as being close to a PPG player in the league for the next decade. Basically generational offensive talent. Something we lack now and will likely not draft for many years.
Not saying that Staal does not have the value, but I am a bit wary of him not resigning when contract is up and going to Carolina to play with the brothers.
Skinner would be much better than the talked about alternatives such as Nash, Ryan or Parise.
But we need not argue because this is not going to happen

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07-02-2012, 05:45 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Not really advocating this but looking at it through a cap perspective

Hypothetically - say we would sign Suter at 8 M per
Trade Marc Staal, JT Miller and 2 1st rounders to Carolina for Jeff Skinner
Sign Peter Mueller (2 years at 2,4 M) and Ruslan Fedotenko (1 year at 1,4 M)
Agree to keep Stralman (qo) and MDZ (2,3 for 2 years)
Erixon (or McIllrath) graduate

I like the looks of this team! But it is not going to happen...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

FORWARDS
Jeff Skinner ($1.400m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Peter Mueller ($2.400m)
Mike Rupp ($1.500m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Arron Asham ($1.000m) rotating with Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.400m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($8.000m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.300m)
Tim Erixon ($1.750m) / Anton Stralman ($0.945m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)

IR
Michael Sauer ($1.250m)
Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)

BUYOUTS
Chris Drury ($1.667m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000
CAP PAYROLL: $66,453,334
BONUSES: $2,600,000 (deferrable)
CAP SPACE (24-man roster including 2 players on IR): $3,746,666
IR - $8,750,000

Sooo what happens if the cap goes down with the new CBA?

And is Suter really worth almost double what Staal is paid?

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07-02-2012, 05:53 AM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Sooo what happens if the cap goes down with the new CBA?

And is Suter really worth almost double what Staal is paid?
First - this is not going to happen as it seems we are not in on the bidding on Suter anyways.
Second regarding the cap - We would have some remaining space even if the cap stays at 64,3 M this year.
We would have $63.853.334 committed in salaries and $2.600.000 in eventual deferrable bonuses. In addition - $8,750,000 would be on IR until December (at least) - putting us far under the cap roof even with last years numbers. Next year would probably see some roster changes, but we could probably sign all of our RFAs then with a tweek or two.
Third - you are right. Suter is not worth double the amount of Staals salary. Not remotely. But he is in theory the only UFA available that could fill the loss of Staal imo as an upgrade.

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07-02-2012, 07:50 AM
  #244
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Skinner would need a bounceback season before I considered trading Staal for him.

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07-02-2012, 07:59 AM
  #245
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Trading away one of the captains of the team isn't usually a good idea. While Suter is better than Staal, he costs more and there's no certainty he'll succeed in this market. Also, I assume Staal will be flipped for offense. Bringing back someone like Nash will help the team in the short run but they have major pieces that need to be re-signed in a couple of years and I'd hate to see them handcuffed because of a short-sighted move. No need to make the window for sucess shorter than it needs to be.

Just my $0.02.

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07-02-2012, 07:59 AM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Trade Marc Staal, JT Miller and 2 1st rounders to Carolina for Jeff Skinner
Not going to comment on the rest of your post but the deal quoted.

Really?

That's ridiculous.

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07-02-2012, 08:12 AM
  #247
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I am sure there is a RD out there that may be available for something like a 2nd or 3rd and say Bourque. Who that RD may be? Well I have no idea, but I am sure Sather has a list of a few guys.

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07-03-2012, 12:29 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
I wouldnt trade Staal for Skinner straight up let alone part with Miller + 1st.
That's crazy, Skinner put up 63 points as an 18 year old.

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07-03-2012, 12:30 PM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Skinner would need a bounceback season before I considered trading Staal for him.
Most could say the same about Staal. Skinner's season was shortened and he still had 20 goals, 44 points in 64 games.

Although it's silly to even talk about it because I doubt Skinner is going anywhere.

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07-03-2012, 12:33 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Not really advocating this but looking at it through a cap perspective

Hypothetically - say we would sign Suter at 8 M per
Trade Marc Staal, JT Miller and 2 1st rounders to Carolina for Jeff Skinner
Sign Peter Mueller (2 years at 2,4 M) and Ruslan Fedotenko (1 year at 1,4 M)
Agree to keep Stralman (qo) and MDZ (2,3 for 2 years)
Erixon (or McIllrath) graduate

I like the looks of this team! But it is not going to happen...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

FORWARDS
Jeff Skinner ($1.400m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Carl Hagelin ($0.875m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Peter Mueller ($2.400m)
Mike Rupp ($1.500m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Arron Asham ($1.000m) rotating with Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.400m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($8.000m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.300m)
Tim Erixon ($1.750m) / Anton Stralman ($0.945m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)

IR
Michael Sauer ($1.250m)
Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)

BUYOUTS
Chris Drury ($1.667m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000
CAP PAYROLL: $66,453,334
BONUSES: $2,600,000 (deferrable)
CAP SPACE (24-man roster including 2 players on IR): $3,746,666
IR - $8,750,000
Our defense is awful in that scenario. We have two left defenseman playing right d, two that showed us last season how bad they are at doing so. And you're relying on Erixon or Bickel to fill a spot, something that proved to be a huge part of our downfall in the playoffs last season.

Our offense levels off with Gaborik out and Skinner in, but Mueller has been garbage and there's no reason to bring back Fedotenko.

This might be a good team in NHL 12. Not in real life.

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