I like Sjostrom comparison for Nieves. I think the kid could develop into a solid bottom six player, but the offensive toolbox just isn't there. It's not just a matter of shooting more, I think the feet are just a heck of a lot faster than the hands and the playmaking.
The thing is, speed almost always has a place in the game. Even if someone isn't a scorer, if you can have a guy who can cover a lot of ground, you almost certainly have some value.
This is all hypothetical (prospects are a crapshoot, etc.), but is Hagelin an out of line hope for Nieves? Could you see the kid growing into that sort of player (exceptional feet, average to below average hands, good head, probably a bottom 6 player on his own merits, but capable of providing a complimentary role on a top 6 line)?
He's fast. Very fast. And he's quick. He's a big tall kid who flat out flies. I've seen him a lot up close and he is slippery and can embarrass defenders. He can pretzel a defenseman at will. He's an exciting player with the puck. I've seen him at ice level a ton and he's an explosive skater.
Now, having said that... His game is rather somple almost one dimensional. He never shoots the puck enough and not overly creative. he dominated with size and speed but, and I've seen it in person, he leaves you wanting more. He's scary fast but his game needs to be developed.
If you are looking for a tall, fast, explosive guy who can blow by guys..... That's boo. He needs to add another dimension to his game though.
He's a hometown guy and that's cool, but this was a bit of a reach here. Not terrible at all, just a slight reach.
Yeah I noticed in the prospect camp videos that he's good with the puck, good hands. Some of the stuff he was doing made me wonder why he's looked at as a reach or whatever? But it was hard to gauge his actual scoring ability...so it sounds like that will be the big thing with him. Learning to use his talents to translate into points. Usually when a guy is that big, that fast, and has nice hands, he can translate that into points in some way. Maybe reminds me a bit of Anisimov with a better stride.
he is skinny as hell though, judging from the pictures of him on the harbor cruise. Putting on some decent weight could do a lot for him in the future
He's more of a disher than a goal scorer which is fine. Adam Oates who didn't have the speed but had a very high hockey IQ made a career as a play maker.
Scott Gomez when he tried. Nylander as well.
This kid is much larger than these guys.
If Boo turns out to be a pure playmaker that's A OK.
This is all hypothetical (prospects are a crapshoot, etc.), but is Hagelin an out of line hope for Nieves? Could you see the kid growing into that sort of player (exceptional feet, average to below average hands, good head, probably a bottom 6 player on his own merits, but capable of providing a complimentary role on a top 6 line)?
Hypothetically, yes, I think that is a reasonable hope.
It's harder for guys with exceptional speed because the expectation is always there for more. There is still this mindset that speed = scoring. However, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Speed is also a dangerous weapon on a penalty kill, to tire teams out and for other game winning strategies. Sometimes you just have to make sure you're okay with knowing the guy isn't going to be Pavel Bure.
Yeah I noticed in the prospect camp videos that he's good with the puck, good hands. Some of the stuff he was doing made me wonder why he's looked at as a reach or whatever? But it was hard to gauge his actual scoring ability...so it sounds like that will be the big thing with him. Learning to use his talents to translate into points. Usually when a guy is that big, that fast, and has nice hands, he can translate that into points in some way. Maybe reminds me a bit of Anisimov with a better stride.
he is skinny as hell though, judging from the pictures of him on the harbor cruise. Putting on some decent weight could do a lot for him in the future
I think the general feeling is that the head doesn't see the offensive game as fast as his skates do. That's not an insult, but it's why you see more comparisons to Sjostrom then Kreider.
Can't argue with speed and size with potentially decent IQ as prerequisites for a NYR pick. The sooner we can get away from the game of muckers and turn the table to a team with a good skill set, the happier I become.
Amidst all of this, I can't help but feel like we're pigeonholing Hagelin, a rookie out of college who had more than .5 PPG, as a career energy guy who can "fill-in on the top-six."
Same way 24-year-old Anisimov will never be more than a 45 pt two-way C, same as Stepan who's had 96 pts in 164 NHL games.
I'm not superstitious, but I wonder how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophesy, when I'm sure kids in their 20s get wind of how we appraise their futures.
Amidst all of this, I can't help but feel like we're pigeonholing Hagelin, a rookie out of college who had more than .5 PPG, as a career energy guy who can "fill-in on the top-six."
Same way 24-year-old Anisimov will never be more than a 45 pt two-way C, same as Stepan who's had 96 pts in 164 NHL games.
I'm not superstitious, but I wonder how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophesy, when I'm sure kids in their 20s get wind of how we appraise their futures.
Maybe that is why Nigel Williams never amounted to anything. It was my constant criticism and venom towards that unskilled, witless, hack.
Sorry, Nigel. Wherever you are, I'm sure you make better burgers and coffee than you were a hockey player.
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Amidst all of this, I can't help but feel like we're pigeonholing Hagelin, a rookie out of college who had more than .5 PPG, as a career energy guy who can "fill-in on the top-six."
Same way 24-year-old Anisimov will never be more than a 45 pt two-way C, same as Stepan who's had 96 pts in 164 NHL games.
I'm not superstitious, but I wonder how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophesy, when I'm sure kids in their 20s get wind of how we appraise their futures.
I just don't see AA having the hockey sense for him to be a steady producer.
Amidst all of this, I can't help but feel like we're pigeonholing Hagelin, a rookie out of college who had more than .5 PPG, as a career energy guy who can "fill-in on the top-six."
Same way 24-year-old Anisimov will never be more than a 45 pt two-way C, same as Stepan who's had 96 pts in 164 NHL games.
I'm not superstitious, but I wonder how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophesy, when I'm sure kids in their 20s get wind of how we appraise their futures.
It's a difficult give and take. On the one hand, you don't want to pigeonhole a kid, but on the other hand, you try not to set unrealistic expectations.
I think the challenge with this team is that we are still a little short on fielding a balanced offense. We have a lot of guys who fit the same roles, more or less, so we haven't had a chance to see them play in combinations that best compliment their full ability. For example, Stepan is never going to be a natural goal scorer, but he could have much higher goal totals playing with guys who are finishers.
This team needs some finishers. Right now, they only have one guy on their roster who has solid odds to score more than 25 goals. And he's out half the year.
It's a difficult give and take. On the one hand, you don't want to pigeonhole a kid, but on the other hand, you try not to set unrealistic expectations.
I think the challenge with this team is that we are still a little short on fielding a balanced offense. We have a lot of guys who fit the same roles, more or less, so we haven't had a chance to see them play in combinations that best compliment their full ability. For example, Stepan is never going to be a natural goal scorer, but he could have much higher goal totals playing with guys who are finishers.
This team needs some finishers. Right now, they only have one guy on their roster who has solid odds to score more than 25 goals. And he's out half the year.
Selling Kreider short.
And that's who Stepan will get an opportunity to play with.
Beyond Gaborik and Kreider, I agree no natural goal scorers.
And that's who Stepan will get an opportunity to play with.
Beyond Gaborik and Kreider, I agree no natural goal scorers.
As a rookie? You are seriously expecting him to get more than 25 goals? If he gets 20 that would be great.
People are really setting themselves up for failure with respect to Kreider. There aren't many players that can step in and score 25+.
Edit: I didn't want to delete my post but this is probably not the place to debate Kreider and his expectations. Sorry to put you on the spot here......
Maybe that is why Nigel Williams never amounted to anything. It was my constant criticism and venom towards that unskilled, witless, hack.
Sorry, Nigel. Wherever you are, I'm sure you make better burgers and coffee than you were a hockey player.
cute, but i wouldn't give yourself so much credit ... btw, there was some legitimate though behind my post, so feel free to retort on that... if you'd like...
It's a difficult give and take. On the one hand, you don't want to pigeonhole a kid, but on the other hand, you try not to set unrealistic expectations.
I think the challenge with this team is that we are still a little short on fielding a balanced offense. We have a lot of guys who fit the same roles, more or less, so we haven't had a chance to see them play in combinations that best compliment their full ability. For example, Stepan is never going to be a natural goal scorer, but he could have much higher goal totals playing with guys who are finishers.
This team needs some finishers. Right now, they only have one guy on their roster who has solid odds to score more than 25 goals. And he's out half the year.
Yeah I do see what you mean, but I mean long-term--not necessarily who will score next season, but who can score 30 as opposed to 15-20 a few years down the road... there was a time we considered Callahan's future to be a 15-goal 3rd liner, meanwhile he's blossomed into a more than capable 2nd liner.
How can we say what NIEVES will be, when, to me, Hagelin's ceiling is not clear yet?
As a rookie? You are seriously expecting him to get more than 25 goals? If he gets 20 that would be great.
People are really setting themselves up for failure with respect to Kreider. There aren't many players that can step in and score 25+.
Edit: I didn't want to delete my post but this is probably not the place to debate Kreider and his expectations. Sorry to put you on the spot here......
He was the best forward on a team that got to the conference final.
He scored at a 30 goal pace relative to an 82 game season, in the playoffs.
Setting up for disappointment? I've read the same crap over and over since being drafted. And he's done nothing but shut that nonsense up.
He's a legitimate talent.
He's going to get his opportunities playing with talented guys in the top six.
If he scores less than 20 people SHOULD be disappointed.
Yeah I do see what you mean, but I mean long-term--not necessarily who will score next season, but who can score 30 as opposed to 15-20 a few years down the road... there was a time we considered Callahan's future to be a 15-goal 3rd liner, meanwhile he's blossomed into a more than capable 2nd liner.
How can we say what NIEVES will be, when, to me, Hagelin's ceiling is not clear yet?
Well I think there's a difference projecting what a player is most likely to become and saying he will NEVER be anything but what we project. I tend to adhere to the former.
Certainly Nieves could very well turn into a legit scorer and a top six talent, but the early observations say that outcome is unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely.
A lot of it comes from experience watching hundreds of players at the same stages of development, factoring in how certain aspects translate to the pro game, etc. But above anything else, it's important to note that no one knows for sure exactly how every player will turn out. Like a pro poker player, you just have a good idea of the percentages.
And that's who Stepan will get an opportunity to play with.
Beyond Gaborik and Kreider, I agree no natural goal scorers.
For as good as Kreider is, and could be, based on the last several years I don't take that as a given. It's certainly possible, but I thinkl Kreider is most likely going to score in the 20-25 range.If he scores more than that, awesome. I'm just not sure I'd count on that. Especially with Gaborik out.
5 goals in the playoffs doesn't exactly equate to "shutting that nonsense up."
Cool we will agree to disagree.
Edit: I would love to be proven wrong here. (no sarcasm)
Two NCAA National Titles, leading one of those teams in scoring.
WJC Gold and Bronze. Leading both teams in goals.
And being the Rangers most effective forward with zero prior Pro experience except for two Men's WC tournaments. Two game winning goals in the playoffs.
Yeah, he will continue to prove some people wrong.
I don't think there's anyone on here who doesn't want Kreider to score a ton of goals. We're all fans of the same team so that's a given and I don't think it's a challenge of having to "prove people wrong."
With that said, I think the reason this board runs so hot and cold with it's young players is that we place some seriously high expectations on people who are barely old enough to drink in this country.
Sometimes they will meet and exceed expectations and we have to be careful not to act like the **** of the walk. Just like when they don't meet expectations we can't start throwing them into every trade proposal and/or trying to hide the fact that the player still has work to do.
... btw, there was some legitimate though behind my post, so feel free to retort on that... if you'd like...
