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Brandon Prust to Montreal [4 years, $10M]

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Old
07-02-2012, 12:24 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They had Moen and White for that kind of 4th line role on the wing. The priority should be getting enough good forwards that Moen is a 4th liner in a healthy lineup. If he was a center it could be justified by riding the everyday lineup of a sub-NHL player in Nokia. But he's another wing.

Your acting like adding a Prust is the difference between winning and losing. Its not and no one should expect that from the 4th line. But this guy is paid the salary of two decent 4th line players
That is because he is actually closer to a 3rd line player than a 4th. 20-30 points, 150-200PIM's, complimentary forward. Good skater. Great PKer. Not many 4th liners average 10-13 minutes a night on a #1 team in the conference. He is more than just a 4th line player.

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07-02-2012, 12:24 PM
  #402
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With Moen, White and Prust, it's a very good start! But we're not there yet in term of toughness. We need at least one more big body on our fourth line or on our D. I was hoping for Carkner....

Maybe we could make a deal for Peckham with Edmonton.

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07-02-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They had Moen and White for that kind of 4th line role on the wing. The priority should be getting enough good forwards that Moen is a 4th liner in a healthy lineup. If he was a center it could be justified by riding the everyday lineup of a sub-NHL player in Nokia. But he's another wing.

Your acting like adding a Prust is the difference between winning and losing. Its not and no one should expect that from the 4th line. But this guy is paid the salary of two decent 4th line players
I am? lol...hadn't noticed.

I don't think adding Prust is the difference between winning and losing, no one player can make that different. He's just a needed piece in an overall puzzle which is far from complete.

Maybe if the Habs had been able to draft/develop a "Prust-like" player for their bottom 6 over the year, they wouldnt' of had to overpay for Prust. But they didn't...so now here we are.

But I still don't think his salary has to affect what he can bring to the team...it's not like he would be a better player if he came in at 2M per year lol

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07-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Your acting like adding a Prust is the difference between winning and losing. Its not and no one should expect that from the 4th line. But this guy is paid the salary of two decent 4th line players
how many "decent 4th liners" make 1.25M$/less and can be described as such:

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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
It is not arguable. Brandon Prust would make any team in the NHL a better team. He is a superb PKer, fights, hits, plays hard and creates energy. Defensively he is well above average and on a good year he would put up 25~30 points.


TTG, i'm thinking perhaps you have a perception of Prust that doesn't quite do justice the player he has been the past 2 years?

I saw him a lot in his Calgary days, and at that time, he was a decent energy 4th liner... the kind of guy you pay <1M$, and play <10min/night.

He's improved considerably since then.

and if a fan assessment isn't convincing enough for you, what about how his coach used him/trusted him?
almost 2min/gm of PK time in the playoffs... ice time up in the playoffs for a Conference finalist, and with a coach not shy to glue ineffective players to the bench.

and then you factor in the physical/character/attitude intangibles...

that's why he was looking for, and got, a 2M$+ contract.

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07-02-2012, 12:39 PM
  #405
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i don't know when this period where we were "tough to win against" occurred? Aside from 2007-08, we've been a borderline playoff team every season, a mediocre team that might put together a positive streak or two, but always followed by an equally negative stretch...

yes, we had a deadly PP which I'm sure made some opposing players nervous (for fear of being the one to take a bad penalty/give up a goal), but otherwise we've been weak 5-on-5 and iced a smallish team with no one willing/capable to clear the crease or address liberties being taken.


Yes, Pleks is a centre and yes, in clutch moments (late in games, when score is tied/tight, down the stretch) he's obviously going to get his minutes, but adding depth to quality PK fwds is never a bad thing. Pleks is the top C for PK situations but it's much easier to give more minutes to your 2nd/3rd rated PK C if you have greater confidence in the wingers/other fwds you have to complement.
While in the EA sports world, it's fine and dandy to simply put your top rated guys in all of the important roles, in the real world, players have ego's that get affected by their stat line/media focus, and if you give a player like Pleks a few extra shifts/nights off of the gruelling PK role (he played 3:13/g on the PK last year, dropping that to ~2:30 might seem like a minor difference, but over 82 games that can have a huge impact)

We had Plekanec with Cammalleri last year... didn't do us much good.
We had Kost on the roster last year... while there were nice glimpses with Eller, neither coach seemed convinced enough to give them consistent time together.

again, while on paper it looks nice just to add in guys who have had strong offensive seasons in the past, in reality, finding the right chemistry is more in tune with production/success than simply adding skill player A with skill player B.

no doubt we still need to upgrade our top-6, but that doesn't make the upgrades we've made to our bottom-6 a bad thing.

of all the bottom-6 players we've had in recent years that coaches bumped into top-6 roles (either due to injury or to "cleverness") Armstrong has the potential to be by far the most effective.

moving forward, getting rid of Bourque and adding two players into the top-9 that have greater production potential is the objective, but finding those players is always a challenge.

Hopefully we can land Jagr, and perhaps Semin (if it doesn't require a huge cap/term commitment), or find a suitable trade partner (Hemsky?) where we won't have to give up a ton unless getting a bonafide star (Ryan?).

if not? team is better today than it was in April... with a bit of injury luck, we're right back in the playoff conversation and with young guys like Gally/Gallagher/Kristo/Collberg in the pipeline, perhaps we go the Phoenix route for the next season or two (scoring by committee, winning from the goal out, being "hard to play against"), which is still an upgrade over the past few years, and wait for the top-6 "skill" upgrades to come internally.
2010-11 they were hard to win against. They did that by loading up on offensive and defensive specialists on the bottom lines that contributed on the scoresheet in more goals for and less against. They survived an implosion on the 2nd line on that basis. The late era Martin team was sustainably well above average on 5 on 5 play.

Why does everyone insist this will help Plekanec's PK minutes go down? Prust isn't a PK C. He has no relevance to the situation. Adding another PK winger does not effect Plekanec's PK minutes, if they added a PK center we could have this discussion. However that is something that manifestly did not happen yesterday.

Cammalleri with Plekanec did plenty of good. It meant Plekanec played with a winger good enough that when faced with tough minutes he could play them at least equal. Losing him for Bourque was the step that killed the lineups ability to play power versus power against good teams. This was a move many applauded because Bourque was bigger and had scored more more recently.

With the way the Habs are currently constructed at least one line of good players is going to under perform their "scoring potential" because they will get matched in hard minutes. The way out of that is to have enough scoring depth that two lines can produce while the other plays shutdown. Montreal doesn't have the overwhelming firepower at the top of the lineup to change that. Chemistry is massively over-rated. It wasn't a matter of bad chemistry that guys production went down, its is a matter of roles that need to be played.

Armstrong isn't nearly as capable of stepping up to the top six as Kostitsyn was to start last year. That's the situation Montreal should be looking to recapitulate.

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07-02-2012, 12:48 PM
  #406
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2010-11 they were hard to win against.
I don't know about that. The Habs were exactly average when it came to coming back after opponents scored first that year, for example. If the other teams beat you almost 70% of the time when they score first, you're not "hard to win against". Look at the teams closest to 60% and you'll see the 10 or so teams that were "legitimately" hard to beat.

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07-02-2012, 12:51 PM
  #407
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omg!
that looks so bad when its in print
it looked even worse on the ice!

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07-02-2012, 12:52 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
That is because he is actually closer to a 3rd line player than a 4th. 20-30 points, 150-200PIM's, complimentary forward. Good skater. Great PKer. Not many 4th liners average 10-13 minutes a night on a #1 team in the conference. He is more than just a 4th line player.
Penalty minutes are bad things. People should wake up to that fact. He's more than a 4th line player true. He's a 4th line player plus a PK winger. Montreal didn't need a PK winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
how many "decent 4th liners" make 1.25M$/less and can be described as such:

TTG, i'm thinking perhaps you have a perception of Prust that doesn't quite do justice the player he has been the past 2 years?

I saw him a lot in his Calgary days, and at that time, he was a decent energy 4th liner... the kind of guy you pay <1M$, and play <10min/night.

He's improved considerably since then.

and if a fan assessment isn't convincing enough for you, what about how his coach used him/trusted him?
almost 2min/gm of PK time in the playoffs... ice time up in the playoffs for a Conference finalist, and with a coach not shy to glue ineffective players to the bench.

and then you factor in the physical/character/attitude intangibles...

that's why he was looking for, and got, a 2M$+ contract.
McClement just signed for 1.5 million. Jeff Halpern is as good of a depth defensive player out there, 700,000 last season. Dominic Moore 1.1M. The key is to not get sucked into a bidding war for these guys like MTL did.

Good veteran 4th liners come cheap. The problem is not being content with good but going for the deluxe version with all the bells and whistles.

He was used as a 10-12 guy on the even strength depth chart in New York. Torts trusted him to play regular. Not play 3rd line minutes regular though. He played PK minutes which would be great if Montreal needed that from a winger, but they don't. Like I've said a few times, he's not a C so he won't take Plekanec's job there.

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07-02-2012, 01:03 PM
  #409
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Prust Armstron Eller line will complety shut out the opponents i don't think people are realizing we may just have the best 3rd line in the nhl. Eller is getting better and better as a two way player, the prust line screwed the habs last year and Armstrong is a pest that can play hockey.

We can also put Moen who is a great defensive forward.

I'm pretty sure this line will have the task of shutting down the top lines and will be good at it.

he was the most desired bottom 6 player on the market rangers fan talkin about overpayment and getting Asham for 500k less. What a huge difference...

I would take Prust any day of the week before Asham more gritty than Asham and can fight too.

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07-02-2012, 01:10 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Penalty minutes are bad things. People should wake up to that fact. He's more than a 4th line player true. He's a 4th line player plus a PK winger. Montreal didn't need a PK winger.



McClement just signed for 1.5 million. Jeff Halpern is as good of a depth defensive player out there, 700,000 last season. Dominic Moore 1.1M. The key is to not get sucked into a bidding war for these guys like MTL did.

Good veteran 4th liners come cheap. The problem is not being content with good but going for the deluxe version with all the bells and whistles.

He was used as a 10-12 guy on the even strength depth chart in New York. Torts trusted him to play regular. Not play 3rd line minutes regular though. He played PK minutes which would be great if Montreal needed that from a winger, but they don't. Like I've said a few times, he's not a C so he won't take Plekanec's job there.
That's fine, so he's a bit overpaid. Worse things in the world than overpaying a 4th liner who can actually play hockey.

Here's the thing...maybe getting Prust doesn't take Plekx' PK duties away...however, having Prust strengthens the 2nd PK unit. So maybe tehy feel more comfortable playing the Eller/Prust forward combo on a more regular basis so that Plekx/Moen's minutes there can come down a bit.

We all love Plekx but no one wants him to stop playing on the PK, or stop being one of our top used PK guys. It's all about keeping your best players where they need to be, to be at their best and most valuable to the team...and keeping them fresh through the year.

Last year per game Plekx played 3:13 on the PK and Eller played 1:41.

Maybe with the added presence of Prust Eller can get up to 2:11 per game and Plekx down to 2:43 per game.

30 seconds less per game equals 41 minutes less in the 82 games. That's some decent minutes to spread around.

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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Prust Armstron Eller line will complety shut out the opponents i don't think people are realizing we may just have the best 3rd line in the nhl. Eller is getting better and better as a two way player, the prust line screwed the habs last year and Armstrong is a pest that can play hockey.

We can also put Moen who is a great defensive forward.

I'm pretty sure this line will have the task of shutting down the top lines and will be good at it.

he was the most desired bottom 6 player on the market rangers fan talkin about overpayment and getting Asham for 500k less. What a huge difference...

I would take Prust any day of the week before Asham more gritty than Asham and can fight too.
In no world that consists of logic and reasoning does Prust bump Moen down to the 4th line.

If Armstrong is healthy a Moen-Eller-Armstrong line will be sweet, and if he's not (or if he's just not that good anymore) a Moen-Eller-Prust line will be sweet as well.

But Prust sure doesn't bump Moen down to the 4th line, don't let their salaries fool you. Moen is a much more valuable player.

Moen-Eller-Armstrong
Prust-Noeky-White

That's a really solid bottom 6...it of course means Bourque is in the top 6 and no other additions were made to help scoring but it's a pretty cool bottom 6.

Although Eller once again doesn't have much in the way of offensive talent to play with.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 07-02-2012 at 01:14 PM. Reason: merge
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07-02-2012, 01:26 PM
  #411
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That's fine, so he's a bit overpaid. Worse things in the world than overpaying a 4th liner who can actually play hockey.

Here's the thing...maybe getting Prust doesn't take Plekx' PK duties away...however, having Prust strengthens the 2nd PK unit. So maybe tehy feel more comfortable playing the Eller/Prust forward combo on a more regular basis so that Plekx/Moen's minutes there can come down a bit.

We all love Plekx but no one wants him to stop playing on the PK, or stop being one of our top used PK guys. It's all about keeping your best players where they need to be, to be at their best and most valuable to the team...and keeping them fresh through the year.

Last year per game Plekx played 3:13 on the PK and Eller played 1:41.

Maybe with the added presence of Prust Eller can get up to 2:11 per game and Plekx down to 2:43 per game.

30 seconds less per game equals 41 minutes less in the 82 games. That's some decent minutes to spread around.
Maybe. Eller is pretty awesome on the penalty kill with Gionta/White/Bourque etc. though. Prust may be an upgrade for that but I don't think its such a large one that committing money to fix it is wise.

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07-02-2012, 01:36 PM
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Maybe. Eller is pretty awesome on the penalty kill with Gionta/White/Bourque etc. though. Prust may be an upgrade for that but I don't think its such a large one that committing money to fix it is wise.
I don't want Gionta anywhere near the PK. At his age and coming off his injury the Habs need to keep him as fresh as possible.

Plekx/Moen
Eller/Prust
Noek/Bourque

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07-02-2012, 01:36 PM
  #413
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That is because he is actually closer to a 3rd line player than a 4th. 20-30 points, 150-200PIM's, complimentary forward. Good skater. Great PKer. Not many 4th liners average 10-13 minutes a night on a #1 team in the conference. He is more than just a 4th line player.
There is no sense in trying to even explain to the one's who just don't get it .Hard to believe when you read people saying Mattieu Darche is as good as Prust.....lol .that is what your up against here.

Most of us are very thrilled to have him as a Hab....the others you will have to please excuse there ignorance.

Pierre Gauthier made a lot of cupcakes out of some Montreal fans.
Some are right on his level too.

Ps :No question everyone in Habs dressing room really like's Prust on the Habs.


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07-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #414
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I love the sandpaper we have in the bottom 6, don't think its going to be fun to play the habs anymore. VERY impressed by bergevin, and I prefer giving prust 2.5 m to add a much needed element then to try and convince ourselves that we didn't need that.

I love all the players comming in, and Im thrilled that it happened so fast, yes we might have paid a little more for those players, but I appreciate that Bergevin is being proactive ... we're not used to that at all ... I'd rather overpay a little bit for what we need than to hear another year of the ''we tried'' and ''we don't really need'' BS we've been fed with for the past decade. The results of which were panic moves like getting Gomez, being so aggressive on PLAN Z because we failed from A to Y.

too soon to tell but this feels right.


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07-02-2012, 01:55 PM
  #415
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Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - XXXX - Ryan White


If we get a good #4 C that can carry the puck (Moore? Even Gomez?) and Armstrong returns to form, that's actually a pretty good bottom 6. Gomez in a limited role might not be THAT bad assuming we won't send him to the minors. We can't give him PP time and high even strength minutes though.


Max Pacioretty - Tomas Plekanec - Brian Gionta
Rene Bourque - David Desharnais - Erik Cole
Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - Scott Gomez - Ryan White


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07-02-2012, 02:14 PM
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Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - XXXX - Ryan White
That's where I'd like to see a guy like Steve Ott come in. Great of faceoffs, he brings more in-your-face attitude and grit.

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07-02-2012, 02:14 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Penalty minutes are bad things. People should wake up to that fact. He's more than a 4th line player true. He's a 4th line player plus a PK winger. Montreal didn't need a PK winger.


The guy had 20 fighting majors. That's at least 100PIM's right there. He is extremely good at staying out of the box. The fact that he sticks up for his teammates is a bad thing? I didn't realize you liked your team to get pushed around all the time.

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07-02-2012, 02:15 PM
  #418
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That's where I'd like to see a guy like Steve Ott come in. Great of faceoffs, he brings more in-your-face attitude and grit.
Too expensive, and will cost assets to get him.

NOT interested!!!

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07-02-2012, 02:16 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - XXXX - Ryan White


If we get a good #4 C that can carry the puck (Moore? Even Gomez?) and Armstrong returns to form, that's actually a pretty good bottom 6. Gomez in a limited role might not be THAT bad assuming we won't send him to the minors. We can't give him PP time and high even strength minutes though.


Max Pacioretty - Tomas Plekanec - Brian Gionta
Rene Bourque - David Desharnais - Erik Cole
Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - Scott Gomez - Ryan White
Is Moore or Halpern still on the market?

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07-02-2012, 02:18 PM
  #420
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Is Moore or Halpern still on the market?
Yes. Halpern might retire.

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07-02-2012, 02:21 PM
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Yes. Halpern might retire.
Halpern is still effective when healthy, I'd take one of those guys back to complete the fourth line without hurting cap space.

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07-02-2012, 02:24 PM
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The guy had 20 fighting majors. That's at least 100PIM's right there. He is extremely good at staying out of the box. The fact that he sticks up for his teammates is a bad thing? I didn't realize you liked your team to get pushed around all the time.
Then bring up his fighting majors (which he does have a lot off) but PIM are a measure of negative value, not positive.

I like it when my team plays in a way that allows it them to win. Skeptical that Prust adds so much to that he's worth mid-level 3rd line player dollars.

What dollar price do you put on Prust's fighting? I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.

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07-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Then bring up his fighting majors (which he does have a lot off) but PIM are a measure of negative value, not positive.

I like it when my team plays in a way that allows it them to win. Skeptical that Prust adds so much to that he's worth mid-level 3rd line player dollars.

What dollar price do you put on Prust's fighting? I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.
Habs need a lot of ****. Prust helps so little girls can't push us around.

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07-02-2012, 02:27 PM
  #424
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Halpern is still effective when healthy, I'd take one of those guys back to complete the fourth line without hurting cap space.
I hope we'll will be able to sign a top 6 forward and bump one of Bourque and Gionta on the third line, and one of Prust, Moen and Armstrong on the 4th line. That way, we'll be much stronger than having a filler on the 4th line.

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07-02-2012, 02:31 PM
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Then bring up his fighting majors (which he does have a lot off) but PIM are a measure of negative value, not positive.

I like it when my team plays in a way that allows it them to win. Skeptical that Prust adds so much to that he's worth mid-level 3rd line player dollars.

What dollar price do you put on Prust's fighting? I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.
Yeah PIM can't be a good thing, but Prust won't be a problem. On top of that 100 major penalties, you can add a few game misconducts. A bottom line player with a lot of PIM is not as bad as having a top six player with a lot of PIM. They are role players...they are on the ice for a reason, and they fight for a reason.

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