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Brandon Prust to Montreal [4 years, $10M]

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Old
07-02-2012, 01:35 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Then bring up his fighting majors (which he does have a lot off) but PIM are a measure of negative value, not positive.

I like it when my team plays in a way that allows it them to win. Skeptical that Prust adds so much to that he's worth mid-level 3rd line player dollars.

What dollar price do you put on Prust's fighting? I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.
What happens if he get's 30 pts this year?

You bunch of babble fools keep going on ,this isn't George Parros.
Yes Prust takes 150-160 PIM,and a lot of that is due to him going after guys for his team mates, but he also spends 140 min on the PK killing penalties.

The guy gets 12 mins a night even with all those fights.
Plays an avg 1.40 min a game on the PK....
got 29 pts in 2010-11.....He is 28 not 36 ...

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07-02-2012, 01:39 PM
  #427
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I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.
Oh boy...

Thank god you're not the GM.. you would be the worst GM, EVER.

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07-02-2012, 01:40 PM
  #428
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I'm confused by the notion that this is a good bottom-6. It looks weak to me.

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07-02-2012, 01:42 PM
  #429
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I'm confused by the notion that this is a good bottom-6. It looks weak to me.
What is a strong bottom 6 in the league that you look at compared to the Habs and think it is weak?

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07-02-2012, 01:45 PM
  #430
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Oh boy...

Thank god you're not the GM.. you would be the worst GM, EVER.
Well, we disagree then. Sorry about that.

And thinking this might end up good because a 29 year old player scores more that he ever has before, well that's wishful thinking. He got 29 once because he managed 5 SH goals and 7 SH points, that's hard for anyone to do year to year. He was 9th-10th on his team in even strength scoring that year for a forward. Once again, good 4th unit play. That was his career season. Doubt he ever hits it again.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 07-02-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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07-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #431
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Well, we disagree then. Sorry about that.
I think it's gonna be you against the world

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07-02-2012, 01:49 PM
  #432
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I'm confused by the notion that this is a good bottom-6. It looks weak to me.
The notion is heavily reliant on a healthy (2006-2010) Armstrong as a 3rd line RW.

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07-02-2012, 02:01 PM
  #433
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I think it's gonna be you against the world
Well I think its me, the large contingent of people who can look at these things rationally rather than emotionally against an ingrained ideological opinion of dubious value in modern times. But you can have your own view on things.

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07-02-2012, 02:16 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
The notion is heavily reliant on a healthy (2006-2010) Armstrong as a 3rd line RW.
I think people here have unrealistic expectations of what a third line should be able to produce. This isn't the 80s or the 90s anymore. Hell, this isn't 2005-2006 anymore. I've made that argument before, but if you split the league's forwards into 4 categories that looks like this:
1) Top scorer to 90th best scorer are first liners (30 RW + 30 C + 30 LW)
2) 91st to 180th scorers are second liners
3) 181st to 270th scorers are third liners
4) 270th to 360th scorers are fourth liners
Then you realize that third liners usually produce between 30 and 17 points.

I know it's a very basic way to look at things, but my point is this: realistically, if we can get 20ish points from Prust and 30ish points from Armstrong (if those two play on the third line), then we have an above-average third line. Then, if you can get 35-40 points out of Eller, which I think he could do even with Prust and Armstrong, you get a pretty good third line.

Not only are they producing nicely, but all three of them are defensively solid, tough to play against, Armstrong brings an agitating aspect, Prust can fight... I really like this third line.

EDIT: Even with Armstrong out of the line-up, I think Leblanc, Gallagher or Bourque could take that spot and do well.

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07-02-2012, 02:16 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
What is a strong bottom 6 in the league that you look at compared to the Habs and think it is weak?
If we look at last year's rosters, since this coming year's rosters are incomplete:

Boston: Kelly, Peverley, Pouliot, Campbell, Thornton, Paille looks a lot stronger to me
Colorado: Jones, McGinn, McClement, Mueller, Kobasew, McLeod looks comparable
Detroit: Helm, Cleary, Abdelkader, Holmstrom, Eaves, Miller
Nashville: Tootoo, Hornqvist, Bourque, Smith, Halischuk, Yip
NJ: Sykora, Clarkson, Josefson, Carter, Bernier, X goon
PHI: JVR, Schenn, Talbot, Read, Couturier, X goon
PIT: Kennedy, Cooke, Sullivan, Park, Adams, Asham
STL: Stewart, Sobotka, Langenbrunner, D'Agostini, Arnott, Nicholl/Crombeen/Reaves
Vancouver: Booth, Hansen, Pahlsson, Hodgson/Kassian, Lapierre, Malhotra
Washington: Knuble, Chimera, Ward, Perreault, Hendricks, Halpern

even Chicago, with Bolland, Kruger, Brunette, Bickell, Carcillo and Mayers looks comparable/stronger, and the Hawks have known they've had serious weaknesses with regards to depth.

...

Essentially, almost every playoff club had better bottom-6s than Montreal is looking to have this coming season. And Montreal's paying a fair bit for bottom-6 forwards that don't generate offense. Ultimately, that's my problem with this bottom-6: Montreal doesn't have top tier offensive players in the top-6, and instead of compensating for that with a bottom-6 that can generate offense, they've loaded the bottom-6 with grinders.

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07-02-2012, 02:20 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I think people here have unrealistic expectations of what a third line should be able to produce. This isn't the 80s or the 90s anymore. Hell, this isn't 2005-2006 anymore. I've made that argument before, but if you split the league's forwards into 4 categories that looks like this:
1) Top scorer to 90th best scorer are first liners (30 RW + 30 C + 30 LW)
2) 91st to 180th scorers are second liners
3) 181st to 270th scorers are third liners
4) 270th to 360th scorers are fourth liners
Then you realize that third liners usually produce between 30 and 17 points.

I know it's a very basic way to look at things, but my point is this: realistically, if we can get 20ish points from Prust and 30ish points from Armstrong (if those two play on the third line), then we have an above-average third line. Then, if you can get 35-40 points out of Eller, which I think he could do even with Prust and Armstrong, you get a pretty good third line.

Not only are they producing nicely, but all three of them are defensively solid, tough to play against, Armstrong brings an agitating aspect, Prust can fight... I really like this third line.

EDIT: Even with Armstrong out of the line-up, I think Leblanc, Gallagher or Bourque could take that spot and do well.
I think that breakdown is nice enough of what to expect from any given line, but if your top-6 isn't loaded with talent (and thus isn't as highly paid as many top-6s in the league), then your bottom-6 ought to produce more than the average club in order to compensate for the lack of top-6 production.

Alternatively, if one of your top-6 forward lines needs to be sheltered--as the Desharnais line needs to be--then one of your bottom-6 lines should be capable of playing a shutdown role. At this point, Montreal's bottom-6 can't play a shutdown role.

Further, only in the 'best case scenario' of point production from Prust/Armstrong/Eller does the bottom-6 look decent. And decent isn't all that great when the bottom-6 is relatively expensive. (And this isn't even mentioning the fact that, as some of our friends from the Rangers forum have suggested, Prust ought not to be in the team's top-9 rotation!)

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07-02-2012, 02:22 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
The notion is heavily reliant on a healthy (2006-2010) Armstrong as a 3rd line RW.
That seems to be a strange assumption to make--and, it seems Armstrong would agree, since he signed a contract that is demonstrative of his brittle, lackluster state.

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07-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #438
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07-02-2012, 02:54 PM
  #439
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U are going to love this guy..Plays his heart out night in and out.A great team mate will fight anybody for his team mates.. price tage was high but his intangibles are kinda worth it if u can afford it.

he is fairly fast n a good skater..On the PK at times he can be a threat offensively believe it or not,to bad he just dont have talent to finish more often,if really at all.

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07-02-2012, 04:10 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
McClement just signed for 1.5 million. Jeff Halpern is as good of a depth defensive player out there, 700,000 last season. Dominic Moore 1.1M. The key is to not get sucked into a bidding war for these guys like MTL did.

Good veteran 4th liners come cheap. The problem is not being content with good but going for the deluxe version with all the bells and whistles.

He was used as a 10-12 guy on the even strength depth chart in New York. Torts trusted him to play regular. Not play 3rd line minutes regular though. He played PK minutes which would be great if Montreal needed that from a winger, but they don't. Like I've said a few times, he's not a C so he won't take Plekanec's job there.
if you don't understand the difference between what a player like Prust can add to the team vs guys like Halpern/McClement/Moore, then that explains everything.

Let alone the fact that we had 2 of those 3 in our lineup in recent years, and while both fulfilled their roles adequately, even the previous management group (who apparently like yourself, did not value the physical aspect/impact of role players) decided that they were both redundant and easily replaceable. Likewise, when they left montreal, they weren't getting 2M$+ offers... There's a reason why Prust was able to hold out for and get more.

if you don't appreciate toughness, or the role it plays in a contact sport, so be it. Thankfully, our new management understands/appreciates it far better than the previous group did, and their first moves reflect that strongly.

Being "hard to play against" (in the physical sense) is a very real factor. Even successful teams that didn't have particularly "goonish" players on their roster, had/have several individuals that opposing players would be wary of on the flight in. You don't get nervous/worried about lining up against a Moore or a Halpern.

Psychology is a massive part of sport, ignoring it's impact because it isn't superficially or statistically obvious doesn't negate it's impact.

adding a token goon like Laraque is a misguided attempt at addressing this need... stocking your bottom six with guys like Moen, White, Prust, Armstrong is a much much better approach... especially when they complement skilled players (Eller, Leblanc?, Palushaj?) and specific use players (Noke).

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07-02-2012, 05:07 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - XXXX - Ryan White


If we get a good #4 C that can carry the puck (Moore? Even Gomez?) and Armstrong returns to form, that's actually a pretty good bottom 6. Gomez in a limited role might not be THAT bad assuming we won't send him to the minors. We can't give him PP time and high even strength minutes though.


Max Pacioretty - Tomas Plekanec - Brian Gionta
Rene Bourque - David Desharnais - Erik Cole
Travis Moen - Lars Eller - Colby Armstrong
Brandon Prust - Scott Gomez - Ryan White
This is pretty much the "best" I could put together as well. Remember, though, that Nokes is in there with Gomez for 4th line centre, as he is signed to a 1-way.

I don't like leaving Leblanc out of the lineup, though, and don't like the idea of putting him into some kind of 4th line centre carousel with Gomez and Nokes, nor some revolving bottom line RW door with Armstrong and White. I'd personally find Gionta a new home (as well as Gomez, finally erasing the entire great $20 million mistake) and put Louis in there, but hey.

edit: Hell, I'll go full ****** and say that we might as well put the young 1st round pedigree together, and the best vets together, and ice:

MaxPac - Eller - Leblanc
Bourque - Plekanec - Cole
Moen - DD - Armstrong
Prust - Nokes - White

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07-02-2012, 05:22 PM
  #442
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This is pretty much the "best" I could put together as well. Remember, though, that Nokes is in there with Gomez for 4th line centre, as he is signed to a 1-way.

I don't like leaving Leblanc out of the lineup, though, and don't like the idea of putting him into some kind of 4th line centre carousel with Gomez and Nokes, nor some revolving bottom line RW door with Armstrong and White. I'd personally find Gionta a new home (as well as Gomez, finally erasing the entire great $20 million mistake) and put Louis in there, but hey.

edit: Hell, I'll go full ****** and say that we might as well put the young 1st round pedigree together, and the best vets together, and ice:

MaxPac - Eller - Leblanc
Bourque - Plekanec - Cole
Moen - DD - Armstrong
Prust - Nokes - White
If it were up to me, barring Leblanc lighting it up in preseason, I'd have him start the year in the AHL. I think it'd be good to have him help Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Ellis, etc while developing himself offensively.

I'd find a lot of players a new home...Gionta, Bourque, Kaberle, Weber, Palushaj, Geoffrion, among others.

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07-02-2012, 06:04 PM
  #443
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I just don't understand it. For years, people were saying we were too small, not physical and soft. Now, we sign gritty physical players and people are saying we overpaid for players and we don't really need them.

Can't people just be happy that we now have a bottom 6 capable of playing against any team in the league? A bottom 6 that will leave everything on the ice...a bottom 6 that will be more effective than anything we've had in the past 5 years!
It has been sooooooo long since we had a physical bottom 6 that a lot of fans have no idea how this will benefit the team and make the top 6 play better.

Many are still stuck in GauthierLand where pacifism runs wild and its better to let our top 6 players suffer the abuse dished out to them and then take it.

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07-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #444
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I'm confused by the notion that this is a good bottom-6. It looks weak to me.
What's weak about it? Keeping in mind you don't build a team like an allstar team of 4scoring lines

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07-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #445
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Boston plays the Subban card at draft.. Montreal plays 2 with Armstrong & Prust! Send one of ours to the Hospital, we send one of yours to the Morgue.. eye for an eye!

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07-02-2012, 06:10 PM
  #446
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With Moen, White and Prust, it's a very good start! But we're not there yet in term of toughness. We need at least one more big body on our fourth line or on our D. I was hoping for Carkner....

Maybe we could make a deal for Peckham with Edmonton.
Yep, Carkner would have helped this team tremendously. Carkner and Boullion as additions with Weber and Diaz as the subtractions.

Carkner in against the tough teams and Kaberle in against the less physical teams.

Weber and Diaz traded or Hamilton bound.

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07-02-2012, 06:17 PM
  #447
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Boston plays the Subban card at draft.. Montreal plays 2 with Armstrong & Prust! Send one of ours to the Hospital, we send one of yours to the Morgue.. eye for an eye!
If you really think we have the guns to do the Full ****** Mambo with Boston, you'll quickly find out that they've been teaching that dance class for years. We don't have what it takes, not nearly enough, and I wish people would drop it already. Their identity is not our own, and it never will be.

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07-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #448
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If you really think we have the guns to do the Full ****** Mambo with Boston, you'll quickly find out that they've been teaching that dance class for years. We don't have what it takes, not nearly enough, and I wish people would drop it already. Their identity is not our own, and it never will be.
That doesn't have to be a bad thing if we actually get our own identity.

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07-02-2012, 06:19 PM
  #449
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Pacioretty Desharnais Cole
Di Vaio Plekanec Gionta
Bourque Eller Armstrong
Moen White Prust

Discuss.

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07-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #450
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Pacioretty Desharnais Cole
Di Vaio Plekanec Gionta
Bourque Eller Armstrong
Moen White Prust

Discuss.
Can Marco fight?

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