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Old
06-29-2012, 05:33 PM
  #26
BernieParent
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I'd get into a multi-page, multi-quote post war about the semantics of Pronger's salary still reducing the absolute off-season amount (irrespective of 10% overage) that can be spent, but I just don't care enough to start.

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06-29-2012, 05:38 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I'd get into a multi-page, multi-quote post war about the semantics of Pronger's salary still reducing the absolute off-season amount (irrespective of 10% overage) that can be spent, but I just don't care enough to start.
It's the off-season. What else are we going to do?

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06-29-2012, 05:43 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I'd get into a multi-page, multi-quote post war about the semantics of Pronger's salary still reducing the absolute off-season amount (irrespective of 10% overage) that can be spent, but I just don't care enough to start.
I mean semantically yes, we can't spend more than 77 mil and his number counts against that. It "somewhat" limits movement, but without him on LTIR I doubt we would be spending more than 72 this offseason...with him, I'm sure we will spend all 77, and waive Matt walker and others...

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07-02-2012, 09:59 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
I mean semantically yes, we can't spend more than 77 mil and his number counts against that. It "somewhat" limits movement, but without him on LTIR I doubt we would be spending more than 72 this offseason...with him, I'm sure we will spend all 77, and waive Matt walker and others...
Those folks cannot be waived during the summer, don't forget. So Walker's $1.7 million, plus Pronger's number all count against the cap. As well as anyone else we'd likely waive and send down (hi Jody Shelley! Well, ok, he SHOULD be waived).

I'll also add signing Leighton to a $900,000 contract BEFORE July 1st as bad cap management. Every single team in the league passed on him at $775k last season, and so you sign him to a deal $125k above that for...what reason, exactly? Before anyone says "but that's pennies, who cares?" let's not forget this team is only a few years removed from having to see college kids to ATOs for the final two games of the regular season just so they could ice 6 d-men. Eating up cap room for ***** and giggles can come back to have serious consequences.

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07-02-2012, 11:24 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
I'll also add signing Leighton to a $900,000 contract BEFORE July 1st as bad cap management. Every single team in the league passed on him at $775k last season, and so you sign him to a deal $125k above that for...what reason, exactly? Before anyone says "but that's pennies, who cares?" let's not forget this team is only a few years removed from having to see college kids to ATOs for the final two games of the regular season just so they could ice 6 d-men. Eating up cap room for ***** and giggles can come back to have serious consequences.
At least it wasn't for over $1 M for 2 years or some crazy offer to Carle to get him to stay for more than he would get on the market.

Now we don't know how much (or how long exactly) the offers were to Carle, Suter, and Parise, but not going out and trading assets for rights and over paying pre-free agency is a step in the right direction.

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07-02-2012, 01:17 PM
  #31
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The Penguins are in a sort of unique position. Because they stunk for so long and tanked and got ”lucky” they have two generational talents at the same time, who both make a decent amount of cash, but they were willing to take less to play at home. The Penguins would be good if you surrounded these two players with untrained monkeys, or even Jody Shelley and Mike York. Therefore, they will be good regardless of whom else they have. They can afford to be top heavy in payment because they can fill out their roster with journeymen and scrubs.

I don’t like the way Holmgren has handled the Cap because he is forced to make bad trades. For example, unloading Gagne to pick up Matt Walker just to dump salary and add another bad contract, or trading Versteeg for a 2nd round pick instead of waiting to get better value for him. I assume this was to free up Cap space.

Also, every season Holmgren spends to the max before the season starts so that he cannot make improvements as the season goes on.

I think the proper way to go about using the Cap is finding many quality players who don’t make tons of money…yet. Look at how Carolina, Detroit, and Boston won. They had many quality players and won with depth. Detroit had Dastyuk and Zetterberg and Lidstrom for sure, but then had lots of serviceable players like Franzen, Cleary, and Samuelsson and Holmstrom who are able to provide depth. Carolina didn’t even have a true #1 d-man, they just had 6 decent d-men and a bunch of solid forwards. I think Boston’s highest scoring player had like 68 points, but they won with depth.

So when Holmgren goes after someone like Nash, it eats up so much Cap space that it sacrifices depth, which leads to continual mediocrity. If he signs Carle, who is really a second pairing d-man to first pairing money, it limits depth, which will end up limiting overall quality. The only exception I would have to spending big is for a #1 defensman like Weber, Lidstrom (in the past) , Pronger (in the past), Chara, et al.

I think it would be wiser to maintain the current group of forwards who, with the exception of Briere, pretty much get paid at decent levels. Then they should try to find serviceable but not spectacular depth defensemen. Instead I expect Holmgren to overpay for someone like Parise who will certainly add a quality player, but will eat up too much cap space to make it really get us over the top.

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07-02-2012, 04:43 PM
  #32
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I also think that part of the problems are not drafting and keeping players. Many of the players that are key to either depth or top line for these teams were draft results of the team, both early and late rounds. Flyers seem to get little from later picks and have had a recent trend of trading 1st and 2nd round picks to get players or trade the players after drafting them. You can't build a team by just signing free agents and making trades, the core of your line up (and cheapest contracts) usually come from within.

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07-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
Those folks cannot be waived during the summer, don't forget. So Walker's $1.7 million, plus Pronger's number all count against the cap. As well as anyone else we'd likely waive and send down (hi Jody Shelley! Well, ok, he SHOULD be waived).

I'll also add signing Leighton to a $900,000 contract BEFORE July 1st as bad cap management. Every single team in the league passed on him at $775k last season, and so you sign him to a deal $125k above that for...what reason, exactly? Before anyone says "but that's pennies, who cares?" let's not forget this team is only a few years removed from having to see college kids to ATOs for the final two games of the regular season just so they could ice 6 d-men. Eating up cap room for ***** and giggles can come back to have serious consequences.
Im not forgetting. They count against the 77. That's why I said without pronger on LTIR I think we "try" to spend 72m total...

Come seasons beginning we will be right around 70m.

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07-02-2012, 08:27 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by turkinaa View Post
I also think that part of the problems are not drafting and keeping players. Many of the players that are key to either depth or top line for these teams were draft results of the team, both early and late rounds. Flyers seem to get little from later picks and have had a recent trend of trading 1st and 2nd round picks to get players or trade the players after drafting them. You can't build a team by just signing free agents and making trades, the core of your line up (and cheapest contracts) usually come from within.
Yes this is the bigger issue. The contracts and salaries are not really that bad, the strip mining of our farm is much worse.

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07-03-2012, 03:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by turkinaa View Post
I also think that part of the problems are not drafting and keeping players. Many of the players that are key to either depth or top line for these teams were draft results of the team, both early and late rounds. Flyers seem to get little from later picks and have had a recent trend of trading 1st and 2nd round picks to get players or trade the players after drafting them. You can't build a team by just signing free agents and making trades, the core of your line up (and cheapest contracts) usually come from within.
I've been thinking lately about the number of #1 picks the Flyers have traded. Going back to 1996.


96 we got Zubrus, traded a few years later
98 we got Gagne and kept him
99 got Oullette and traded him 2 yrs later
2000 we got Williams and traded him a few years later
2001 got Woywitka and traded him within a few years
2002 got Pitkanen and traded him within a few years
2003 Carter and Richards - at least we kept them for 7 years
2005 Downie, traded within a few years
2006 Giroux - not traded yet
2007 JVR gone
2008 Sbisa gone

In that group, really only Gagne and Richards/Carter and Giroux were kept for more than 3 years. Oullette never panned out and Woywitka is a journeyman, but other than that, those players are regulars.

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07-03-2012, 03:30 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I've been thinking lately about the number of #1 picks the Flyers have traded. Going back to 1996.


96 we got Zubrus, traded a few years later
98 we got Gagne and kept him
99 got Oullette and traded him 2 yrs later
2000 we got Williams and traded him a few years later
2001 got Woywitka and traded him within a few years
2002 got Pitkanen and traded him within a few years
2003 Carter and Richards - at least we kept them for 7 years
2005 Downie, traded within a few years
2006 Giroux - not traded yet
2007 JVR gone
2008 Sbisa gone

In that group, really only Gagne and Richards/Carter and Giroux were kept for more than 3 years. Oullette never panned out and Woywitka is a journeyman, but other than that, those players are regulars.
Players drafted in the first round get traded all the time. The Flyers have also received a number of players drafted in the first round during that time.

EDIT: Just to throw out a few names...Brendl, Eminger, Pronger, Falloon, Daigle, Parent, Upshall, Hartnell. Not all of them are great, but first rounders are dealt all the time. It really doesn't mean much.

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07-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I'd get into a multi-page, multi-quote post war about the semantics of Pronger's salary still reducing the absolute off-season amount (irrespective of 10% overage) that can be spent, but I just don't care enough to start.
So what you're saying is you're wrong.

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07-03-2012, 03:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Players drafted in the first round get traded all the time. The Flyers have also received a number of players drafted in the first round during that time.

EDIT: Just to throw out a few names...Brendl, Eminger, Pronger, Falloon, Daigle, Parent, Upshall, Hartnell. Not all of them are great, but first rounders are dealt all the time. It really doesn't mean much.
And Coburn, Schenn, Briere, Jagr. Wow, Flyers have a lot of first rounder on the team! just not their own!

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07-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
And Coburn, Schenn, Briere, Jagr. Wow, Flyers have a lot of first rounder on the team! just not their own!
I'd be willing to bet the majority teams are put together like that. Not all, but with the frequency of trades around the league, you look at a team that has 10 first rounders (I have no idea if that is an accurate numbers or not) I'd bet at least half were acquired from trade or free agency for the majority of teams out there.

EDIT: First team I looked at was Dallas Stars, four first round picks, two from trade/UFA two were drafted.

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07-03-2012, 07:22 PM
  #40
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When you look at the successful teams, most are made up of home grown players that have come up together; those teams may be tweaked here and there to fill needs, but they don't go through a complete roster change every couple of years.

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07-03-2012, 09:31 PM
  #41
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In today's NHL cap managment could be just as important as talent evaluation. Teams that are able to pay their players on par to their talent level usually have much deeper teams and are not forced to make any personel decisions based soley on a player's cap hit in the offseason. Every year the flyers are not able to go after the player they truely covet because of cap restraints and it is so frustrating that the perfect fit to fill a hole in the lineup cannot be acquired. I was just curious what the overall opinion is of the flyers cap management and where it ranks amongst other NHL teams.

I only bring this up now after reading that the penguins are prepared to make huge offers to both suter and parise, players that most flyers fans would love in orange and black. A few websites even suggest that it is more than likely that the penguins will indeed get both which is obviously bad bad news for the flyers. It amazes me that they could have two 8.7mil players, a goalie making 5.0 mil, two other 5.0 mil players and still have over 15.0 mil in cap space to spend and that is not taking into account one of those two 5.0mil players (Paul Martin) more than likely being traded or waived before the start of this coming season. I love timonen and briere is a great playoff performer but their caps hit are killing the flyers IMO. Combined they make just under 13.0 mil which is only a few mil less than what crosby and malkin make.

I dont even know if this is a legit complaint about the flyers but all i know it is very frustrating because in order for the flyers to have success in the next few seasons they are going to probably have to go thru the pengiuns, which could be a very tough task if they are able to acquire parise AND suter.
Look at it like this. It is hard to argue that aside from detroit the Flyers probably are the best drafting team in the league, we pick in the 20-25 range every year and do very well. We constantly shuffle the deck and still have a competative team. We have an owner who is so for his team that he throws money as needed to make the big signing and like it or not our capologists are obviously on the jazz as we have ptched for both of the highest prizes this year. it will be a win win this year as if we get the players of target we will be better or we will drive the price up so high oue competator will be strapped for years to come. We sit here and talk about how great Pitts burgh is and we for get the little thing like it is a no brainer to pick malkin crosby fleury and letang when you are rock bottom and in the top five every year but now that they are winning and picking in the late portions of the draft we will see, i like their moves this off season but I like Staal better in Carolina. In guess my point is this history repeats its self at pittsburgh will be ass up sooner than later

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