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The Official Hurricanes 2012 Offseason Thread Part IV: We Lose Allen to the Ducks

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07-02-2012, 06:13 PM
  #976
FlyingSquirrels
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
Buffalo's setting up to be pretty strong, IMO.
Yes they are. And using the draft to do so!! *gasp*

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07-02-2012, 06:16 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
He's not a nobody. He was regarded as a pretty big prize coming out of the NCAA, and with several years in the NCAA, you know what you're getting, more or less.

He'll be the 2C or the 3C depending on what Mueller does with the Staals, but we weren't the only team trying to get him- a lot of NHL teams thought he could step right into the NHL and produce.

A lot of rookies are penciled into roles without any NHL experience, or without having ever played against adult men. Welsh played three years against adult competition in the NCAA and we at least know that he looks somewhat at home in the NHL.

If you want to develop prospects to fill real roles on the team, that's what it often looks like. If you want a known commodity, you have to pay a premium either on the free agent market or through trades.

If you want to develop from within, that means using rookies in real roles on occasion. The alternative is aging, expensive rosters- pick your poison. This team's former strategy of trying to develop offensive talent by sticking them in defensive roles on the third and fourth lines with limited time and a very short leash offensively was a miserable failure. We're not rushing him to the NHL, and we're not pretending he's something he isn't (*cough*LaRose*cough*). He's projected to be a 2C and NHL ready, so he'll play 2/3C as the lines move around. I don't see any problem with that.
I agree with most of this post. We complain when Mo puts the kids on the fourth line, and makes them earn their opportunity from there, THEN complain when we put them in their projected future role. It's a bit absurd the amount of complaining on these boards.

However, the one thing I disagree with is that there's NO problem at all playing Welsh on the second line. However, my problem with that doesn't come from not believing Welsh could do it, I think he'd be fine in that role, if not necessarily as productive as a guy like OJokinen. My problem comes from this absurd idea that the Staals should play on the same line. Welsh should NOT be the 2C next year, if only because JStaal SHOULD. While the potential is there for him to fail on the second line right off the bat, I think his style of play is PERFECT to break into the NHL on the third.

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07-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #978
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After reading the last 10 pages of this thread, I'm led to believe we are going to suck really really bad this year. In order to not suck, we need to mortgage our future on Rick ****ing Nash.

I will throw out one reason why we won't suck: A full pre-season with Kirk Muller at the helm. I will argue our current line-up is no worse than this past year's NJD team and look where they ended up. A full season with DeBoer did wonders for them and I truly believe a full season with Muller will work wonders here.

I think he is THAT good.

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07-02-2012, 06:19 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
Yes they are. And using the draft to do so!! *gasp*
Out of curiosity, are you happy with the Staal trade? If given the choice between what we did at the draft and simply taking Grigs/Forsberg and calling it a first round, would you have done what JR did?

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07-02-2012, 06:24 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
Out of curiosity, are you happy with the Staal trade? If given the choice between what we did at the draft and simply taking Grigs/Forsberg and calling it a first round, would you have done what JR did?
I like Jordan Staal and am OK with trading for him. But Forsberg would've looked good in our top 6, Dumo would've been a nice shut down guy and Sutter is a nice 3C.

With that said I cannot get comfortable with a continuation of dumping #1 picks and top-flite prospects for another team's malcontents (Nash, not JStaal). One pillaging of our system is enough every couple of years.

I am scared to death of hearing about us getting Nash and hearing what we gave up for him. And I'm amazed at how we seem to want to use our farm system as trading chips. It is NOT how a winner is built. If our minor coaches can't develop prospects then get rid of them! Don't give up on drafting.

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07-02-2012, 06:26 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
I like Jordan Staal and am OK with trading for him. But Forsberg would've looked good in our top 6, Dumo would've been a nice shut down guy and Sutter is a nice 3C.

With that said I cannot get comfortable with a continuation of dumping #1 picks and top-flite prospects for other teams malcontents (Nash, not JStaal).

I am scared to death of hearing about us getting Nash and hearing what we gave up for him.
You sort of sidestepped my question. Would you have traded those 3 assets for Staal, or taken Forsberg?

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07-02-2012, 06:29 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
I will throw out one reason why we won't suck: A full pre-season with Kirk Muller at the helm.
I see your fanciful wonderment, and raise you one (possibly two) words: Lockout.

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07-02-2012, 06:30 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I see your fanciful wonderment, and raise you one (possibly two) words: Lockout.
Good point, the preseason (at LEAST) will likely be cut short...

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07-02-2012, 06:30 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
After reading the last 10 pages of this thread, I'm led to believe we are going to suck really really bad this year. In order to not suck, we need to mortgage our future on Rick ****ing Nash.

I will throw out one reason why we won't suck: A full pre-season with Kirk Muller at the helm. I will argue our current line-up is no worse than this past year's NJD team and look where they ended up. A full season with DeBoer did wonders for them and I truly believe a full season with Muller will work wonders here.

I think he is THAT good.
You could argue that our current line-up is no worse than past year's Devils. You'd lose the argument, but sure, you could argue it all you want. For ****s and giggles, what line of our current line-up compares to Kovalchuk - Elias - Parise?

And yes, DeBoer did wonders for them. You know what else did? Signing a big name in free agency. Trading for a solid defenseman. They're kind of important.

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07-02-2012, 06:31 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I see your fanciful wonderment, and raise you one (possibly two) words: Lockout.
Won't happen. Players already agreed to play even if no agreement in place. I swear I read that somewhere.

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07-02-2012, 06:31 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
You could argue that our current line-up is no worse than past year's Devils. You'd lose the argument, but sure, you could argue it all you want. For ****s and giggles, what line of our current line-up compares to Kovalchuk - Elias - Parise?

And yes, DeBoer did wonders for them. You know what else did? Signing a big name in free agency. Trading for a solid defenseman. They're kind of important.
Tlusty - EStaal - Larose

Duh.

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07-02-2012, 06:34 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
You sort of sidestepped my question. Would you have traded those 3 assets for Staal, or taken Forsberg?
No I didn't. I'm ok with that trade, especially with him extended. Scared of what I know JR will do next...overpay massively.

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Old
07-02-2012, 06:37 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
No I didn't. I'm ok with that trade, especially with him extended. Scared of what I know JR will do next...overpay massively.
Being OK with is different than preferring it over the alternative, but whatever...

So you're saying that you, one of the biggest proponents of "building through the draft" on these boards, agree with a trade that gives up the 8th overall pick with a widely considered top 3 worthy kid on the board, as well as two homegrown, JR-drafted players with bright futures, for a guy who's a significant upgrade to our CURRENT roster? You must simply not like Nash then, because that's basically the same thing that JR's trying to do with him, and you're acting like it'd be the biggest mistake in team history or something...

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07-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
I agree with most of this post. We complain when Mo puts the kids on the fourth line, and makes them earn their opportunity from there, THEN complain when we put them in their projected future role. It's a bit absurd the amount of complaining on these boards.

However, the one thing I disagree with is that there's NO problem at all playing Welsh on the second line. However, my problem with that doesn't come from not believing Welsh could do it, I think he'd be fine in that role, if not necessarily as productive as a guy like OJokinen. My problem comes from this absurd idea that the Staals should play on the same line. Welsh should NOT be the 2C next year, if only because JStaal SHOULD. While the potential is there for him to fail on the second line right off the bat, I think his style of play is PERFECT to break into the NHL on the third.
Exactly... I have confidence in Welsh, I do... I'd just like to break him in as the 3c... There is zero reason to move S11 from 2c the first year...

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07-02-2012, 06:40 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
Being OK with is different than preferring it over the alternative, but whatever...
Holy ******* dude. whatever is right. I'm not the ****ing GM. Just offering my opinion on building a successful team. EGADS!!! You are certainly quick to offer us yours.

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07-02-2012, 06:45 PM
  #991
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Won't happen. Players already agreed to play even if no agreement in place. I swear I read that somewhere.
But it's a lockout, not strike... Doesn't matter if the players are willing to play with no CBA if the owners don't unlock the doors

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07-02-2012, 06:45 PM
  #992
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I look at past drafts, see the people in the 3-15 spots that everybody was excited about, and then look at where they are in 2 years.

Nino Niederetter just put up 1 point in 55 games, and a solid -29 this past season.
Ryan Johanson notched 9 goals for Columbus.
Burmistrov had 13 goals.
Connolly with 4 goals
Grandlund's not in the US.

So to expect that guys like Forsberg or Grigorenko were just going to walk onto our team (or any team) and solve a problem like 2c is quite optimistic.

I think Skinner has spoiled our view on how forwards develop a bit. It's slow, and far from a sure thing, even for highly touted forwards.

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07-02-2012, 06:46 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
Holy ******* dude. whatever is right. I'm not the ****ing GM. Just offering my opinion on building a successful team. EGADS!!! You are certainly quick to offer us yours.
Wow, don't get snarky with me, I'm just trying to get a hold on your opinion. You say "build through the draft, that's the path to success," then turn around and say you support a trade that gets rid of a top 10 pick as well as two homegrown players, and say it makes us a team comparable to last year's Eastern Conference champions. Just in your last 5 posts or so you've displayed two drastically different opinions. Just trying to figure it out, damn. No need to get pissed off at me...

As far as me being quick to offer mine, hell yeah, that's what these boards are for. I'm not getting mad at you for OFFERING your opinion, I'm simply annoyed by the fact that I ask you a question and you use vague wording to get around answering it.

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07-02-2012, 06:54 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
You could argue that our current line-up is no worse than past year's Devils. You'd lose the argument, but sure, you could argue it all you want. For ****s and giggles, what line of our current line-up compares to Kovalchuk - Elias - Parise?

And yes, DeBoer did wonders for them. You know what else did? Signing a big name in free agency. Trading for a solid defenseman. They're kind of important.
Staal-Staal-Jokinen/Ruutu

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07-02-2012, 06:59 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
Staal-Staal-Jokinen/Ruutu
Come on now, you don't believe that.

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Old
07-02-2012, 07:15 PM
  #996
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Just because you are willing to give 8 million to two players doesn't mean you are willing to give 10 million to one player.
For all we know, he offered max contracts to both. All signs point to the contract structure being what separates the contenders from the also-rans. There's been no indication that total dollars were the issue.

I was just responding to the question of why JR wouldn't increase one UFA offer at the cost of the other (a reasonable question btw). Immediate responses from the board included:

- We are not an attractive destination
- JR is tricking us into thinking we have a chance
- Big-market teams will outbid us anyway

Reality: There weren't two offers. JR only made an offer to Parise. Common sense tells us that he threw everything into the deal that Karmanos would approve. He didn't need to take anything from a non-existant Suter offer.

He came out and said these things publicly, and those comments are quoted in this very thread. Yet people who were in the conversation at that time still choose an alternative interpretation of what's going on -- an interpretation based around a narrative of JR lying to us about a hopeless pursuit of white-elephant contracts. That perspective says something about the state of this board at the moment.

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07-02-2012, 07:25 PM
  #997
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Come on now, you don't believe that.
not really. But we really don't know yet.

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07-02-2012, 07:34 PM
  #998
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not really. But we really don't know yet.
Well, that's a start.

I do think the team will be more successful under Muller than under Maurice, but as the old saying goes "You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink". Muller can coach the hell out of this team, but if they start this season with essentially the same roster as last year (Improving from Sutter to Staal, but declining from Allen to Corvo), I can see the major players on this team just saying "Well, **** it, I guess we're not competing this year either".

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07-02-2012, 07:38 PM
  #999
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Buffalo's apparently in talks with Columbus about acquiring Nash. They're not on his list though.

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07-02-2012, 07:39 PM
  #1000
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Muller already having a few months with the team, and getting a fresh start this season, is the brightest light I see going into a new season. I don't really consider the personnel changes yet, to be much of an improvement.

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