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Old
07-02-2012, 03:57 PM
  #26
Tundraman
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My apologies and thanks to "A few good men"

From Carkner

Quote:
He beat up on a weakling; that's all Boyle did.

You can't handle the truth! Son, we play on ice that has boards. And those boards have to be guarded by men with fists. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Mr. Softie? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Karlsson and you curse the tough guys. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Karlsson getting beat up, while tragic, saved my career. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves the little guys too...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that ice. You need me on that ice.
And I got 3 years at $1.5M per......

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Old
07-02-2012, 03:58 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Did... did we just agree on something?

Hi-five!
I didn't mean to, I swear!

*hi-fives*

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
I mentioned him in my opening post. Both Methot and Lattendresse are physical players, so they do add to the overall toughness of the roster.
Yeah, I wasn't necessarily going against anything you said, more just supporting the argument that while we lost some toughness, we gained some as well.

Also: some of the toughness we lost were fringe players, and some of the toughness we gained are regular players. Also a plus: I think that you need toughness on a team, but you need to be sure they cal play regularly, first. Like you said, that's why guys like Neil are so immensely valuable, guys who can play AND play tough are rare. Anyone can go out and bring in a thug up front to play 5-7mins / game as a forward, or 10-12 minutes / game as a defenceman, but the tough guys who can play all game, without being sheltered... THOSE are the valuable guys. Not the 6/7th defencemen, or the 12th/13th forwards.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:02 PM
  #29
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I really hope we sign another tough guy to take the load off Neil. We have 11 forwards signed to one-way contracts, and one of those is Butler who should be stapled to the bench for most of the season or waived to make room for better players going forward; so there's room to add such a player.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #30
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Foligno: 3 fighting majors
Konopka: 18 fighting majors
Kuba:

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Expert View Post

When you compare Methot to Kuba in terms of toughness... it's really night and day. Methot is a big guy who will throw the weight around on our blueline. Would be nice to even separate him, Phillips and Cowen, to enable us to have hard hitting d-men on each pairing.
That's what I was saying this morning and I fully agree this. But when I wrote this in Foligno Methot trade I got flamed down saying Phillips and Cowen were soft

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:21 PM
  #32
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It's a bit of an issue, but at the same time you need guys who can play.

It probably came down to O'Brien vs Konopka for example. Well O'Brien is much more suited for the NHL game, you keep the better player despite not being a fighter.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:27 PM
  #33
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Shades of Volchenkov here.



Actually, Volchenkov was never tall enough to plant the guy, but I always remember him doing a similar move.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:30 PM
  #34
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I think Dziurzynski is on the team next year. He's a great skater, huge, physical, and a little bit of offense.

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Old
07-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by EpicNeilTime View Post
I think Dziurzynski is on the team next year. He's a great skater, huge, physical, and a little bit of offense.
I think he has the potential to be another Curtiss Glencross. Much like Glencross, he is a late bloomer, who is a big physical player that is solid defensively and has some underrated offensive skill.

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Old
07-02-2012, 06:25 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derriko View Post
Without toughness you become the Buffalo Sabres and get your star player destroyed by Lucic.

That never would have happened to us with Carkner on the ice. Neil would stand up for us, but Lucic is too big for Neil. Carks is the only one to "deter" him in the first place. Don't forget we play in a division with the Bruins.

We were one of the only teams to match them or stand up to them last year, and now were not
I agree with you. And now that the Sabres have picked up Ott to go along with Kaleta I'm thinking we're gonna be in tough when playing them 6 times a year. Plus, Florida picked up Parros. And of course the Isles now have Carkner.

I just hope we don't get creamed this year. I wasn't a big fan of letting Carkner go. Zenon I didn't care about but Matt was big and didn't take any crap. I realize he didn't play that much last season, but when he was in the lineup the other team minded their p's and q's.

Thank God we still have Neil but he's not a heavyweight like Carkner. Maybe a middleweight or a light heavyweight. And I know we have some kids that "might" be able to pick up some of the slack but I will miss having Carkner's big presence on the ice when needed.

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Old
07-02-2012, 06:34 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
It is surprising how few posters on hfboards actually understand the value of toughness in hockey. Most people don't understand the value of an enforcer until they don't have one on the roster. Look at Edmonton this year, they lacked toughness and that in turn put their skilled players at risk. The sens will be icing a younger roster with a bunch of rookies over the next few years, it will be important that those players have sufficient amount of protection.

Also the last two teams that won the cup, Boston and LA, were both very tough teams who played a very physical game. The sens could benefit from emulating those teams by having more players on the roster who are willing to finish their checks on a consistent basis and are not afraid to rough it up or fight opposing players.

Now with that stated, we needed to improve our overall skill level. While Carkner and Konopka provided adequate toughness to the roster, Both were lacking in skill and mobility. For one, while they were both tough, neither were very effective at making big thunderous hits like Neil. Their loss, along with the loss of Foligno, has in fact created a toughness void on the roster. However this has also provided an opportunity to replace Konopka and Carkner's toughness with some of our prospects who are tough but also have more skill or potential. We are in a good situation because he have a handful of physical prospects and another handful of nasty prospects that are close to making the jump to becoming NHL players. It will be interesting to see which one's end up filling the toughness void.
Except we still have Neil as an awesome top echlon enforcer who can play. Smith who fights. Greening, Cowen... we aren't soft.

Clearly we are trying NOT to take dumb penalties. Konopka took so many stupid ones, and both he and Carkner had to take some penalties to make up for their lack of speed and skill in stopping other players. Foligno was awesome in terms of presence and physicality for a skilled player, but most of his penalties were from over aggression (though I don't mind the goalie interference penalties)

Smith showed last season he had improved on dumb penalties he had taken in earlier seasons.

The fact Carkner and Konopka are gone is a sign we want to be more skilled, better skating and take less penalties. Last year we took far too many penalties. The PK was alright but should not have been on the ice as often as they were. Were were positive at even strength. We need to take less penalties, have better puck possession, skate better and work on the PP.

I loved how Carkner and Konopka came up in the playoffs. I am sure Murray did too. But neither player was worthy of staying at the TERM they got from where they signed. 3 years or two years was not the committment the Senators were willing to make to them. I am happy to see both rejuvinate their careers and get good $$$ and I am sure the Sens are too. Both could have stayed on one year deals, I bet both were offered 1 year deals. It just wasn't in the cards for them to stay.

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Old
07-02-2012, 07:10 PM
  #38
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Carkner was scratched when Boyle gave Karlsson the glove on rabbit shots. Really, it was more of a "code" violation than anything else.

Carkner's cowboy routine could have very easily cost us dearly because of the major penalty he drew. We were lucky that it didn't.

Neil destroying Boyle later was far more effective.

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Old
07-02-2012, 07:11 PM
  #39
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To no ones surprise I'm with Bruiser on this, it's not so much about the players we lost in Konopka & Carkner but rather the opportunity to bring in better players who are also tough. Of course, who knows who would have come to Ottawa, it seems that a lot of players aren't interesting in coming here for some reason. July 1 could have been a good opportunity to bring in better & just as tough players who could play every shift like Allen, Gaustad or Penner. Of course, they would have to want to come here.

While Boston is still the toughest team in the division both Montreal & Buffalo are getting bigger & tougher for next season. While so many keep bringing up how some of our prospects bring toughness there is no room on the roster next yr for them. There is no room for Borocop or Gryba with Lundin & Methot in the lineup unless there is an injury or trade. Which brings up the point, how many games did the guys we got play last yr? Not many, they have there own injury issues. IMO the only prospect/rookie that will make the team next season is Silfverberg, there are too many one way contracts already for any other prospects & he makes the team based on his SEL season.

We had toughness on this team before when Jacques Martin was here & we still got pushed around because he wouldn't use it & tried to avoid it & his players paid for it, they got used to not fighting or sticking up for each other. It was Montreal's biggest problem with him as coach. With McGratton & Carkner in the lineup teams feared us & respected us, without McGratton McCammon gets elbowed & knocked out of the Stanley Cup final. Without Carkner in the lineup Karlsson gets his head punched in. Look at Buffalo's response this yr after Miller was run last yr, they lost respect & never got over it. There response this yr may be over board but they feel they have to address it. Montreal is also getting bigger & tougher because they are too small & keep getting pushed around.

I also think that players who know they will be protected like Karlsson, Spezza, Alfredsson etc... all play bigger & better but meekly, if they are not. Then there is Regin, Silfverberg, Condra, Butler, Gonchar & Phillips who doesn't fight. I'm also not sure if guys like Greening, JOB, Lundin, Methot, Cowens or Latendresse are the kind of guys who are going to fight someone who just ran our player. IMO we have Z. Smith middleweight & Neil bruiserweight to fight our battles & no heavyweight & they will be overworked. The others I fear will only fight if they have to or are forced to & it remains to be seen whether any of them will fight to protect a teammate, but we'll see.

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Old
07-02-2012, 07:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
To no ones surprise I'm with Bruiser on this, it's not so much about the players we lost in Konopka & Carkner but rather the opportunity to bring in better players who are also tough. Of course, who knows who would have come to Ottawa, it seems that a lot of players aren't interesting in coming here for some reason. July 1 could have been a good opportunity to bring in better & just as tough players who could play every shift like Allen, Gaustad or Penner. Of course, they would have to want to come here.

While Boston is still the toughest team in the division both Montreal & Buffalo are getting bigger & tougher for next season. While so many keep bringing up how some of our prospects bring toughness there is no room on the roster next yr for them. There is no room for Borocop or Gryba with Lundin & Methot in the lineup unless there is an injury or trade. Which brings up the point, how many games did the guys we got play last yr? Not many, they have there own injury issues. IMO the only prospect/rookie that will make the team next season is Silfverberg, there are too many one way contracts already for any other prospects & he makes the team based on his SEL season.

We had toughness on this team before when Jacques Martin was here & we still got pushed around because he wouldn't use it & tried to avoid it & his players paid for it, they got used to not fighting or sticking up for each other. It was Montreal's biggest problem with him as coach. With McGratton & Carkner in the lineup teams feared us & respected us, without McGratton McCammon gets elbowed & knocked out of the Stanley Cup final. Without Carkner in the lineup Karlsson gets his head punched in. Look at Buffalo's response this yr after Miller was run last yr, they lost respect & never got over it. There response this yr may be over board but they feel they have to address it. Montreal is also getting bigger & tougher because they are too small & keep getting pushed around.

I also think that players who know they will be protected like Karlsson, Spezza, Alfredsson etc... all play bigger & better but meekly, if they are not. Then there is Regin, Silfverberg, Condra, Butler, Gonchar & Phillips who doesn't fight. I'm also not sure if guys like Greening, JOB, Lundin, Methot, Cowens or Latendresse are the kind of guys who are going to fight someone who just ran our player. IMO we have Z. Smith middleweight & Neil bruiserweight to fight our battles & no heavyweight & they will be overworked. The others I fear will only fight if they have to or are forced to & it remains to be seen whether any of them will fight to protect a teammate, but we'll see.
Fighting and hitting doesn't win you games. Skill does. I think every team is looking for a skilled player with a mean side like Chris Neil. Konopka and Carkner were more liabilities. I wouldn't mind a Raffi Torres, Steve Ott, David Moss type because those are the types of guys who win you hockey games. Guys like that give it 100% and are great guys in the locker room. We need more of those. Zack Smith and Chris Neil are examples, but with one or two more we would definitely be a better team. Brian Boyle, a number 3C, single handily beat our team, not the Marion Gaborik or Brad Richards' of the team.

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Old
07-02-2012, 07:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by EpicNeilTime View Post
Fighting and hitting doesn't win you games. Skill does. I think every team is looking for a skilled player with a mean side like Chris Neil. Konopka and Carkner were more liabilities. I wouldn't mind a Raffi Torres, Steve Ott, David Moss type because those are the types of guys who win you hockey games. Guys like that give it 100% and are great guys in the locker room. We need more of those. Zack Smith and Chris Neil are examples, but with one or two more we would definitely be a better team. Brian Boyle, a number 3C, single handily beat our team, not the Marion Gaborik or Brad Richards' of the team.
Isn't that what I said when I said we should have replaced them with better & just as tough players like Allen, Gaustad & Penner? Your examples are good too.

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Old
07-02-2012, 08:51 PM
  #42
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It's not really about goons. It's about guys who can both give and take hits and still play a strong game. Foligno may have put up less points than expected, but he wouldn't give up on a play and wasn't pushed around. That attitude lifts a team and spreads around to the rest of the guys.

I don't know enough about Methot to judge, but the comments on the Minny board scare me a bit. He sounds like a reclamation project.

Last year was such a great season for us. How many times were we down in the third to battle back and win a game? It was great to see the guys never give up and fight right to the end. There is always a risk the current "chemistry change" might effect that.

But, there's no way to really tell until the season starts. Hopefully a few young kids will make the team and play a hungry game like last year.

And let's face it, Foligno is one of our own. We drafted him, we developed him, we watched him grow. It's hard to see a guy like that leave the nest. It's a business, but you can't fault people for having an emotional attachment to the guys.

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Old
07-02-2012, 09:24 PM
  #43
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I don't mind sacrificing some toughness IF THE ****ING POWERPLAY IMPROVES!!!

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07-02-2012, 09:30 PM
  #44
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I don't mind sacrificing some toughness IF THE ****ING POWERPLAY IMPROVES!!!
Well for one, Zibanejad, Stone and Noesen all have the potential to make the team out of training camp. All three would improve the power play and all three are gritty and physical. The more players we have on the roster like that, the better.

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07-02-2012, 09:36 PM
  #45
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Maybe this is as good a place to post this as any:

Would anyone else support a deal with the Rags for Dylan McIlrath? They have a glut of young Dmen and we have a glut of young forwards. A 1 for 1 swap would be ideal here but maybe not possible.

The addition of McIlrath would help us by adding not only a defensive prospect thats close to NHL on the backend but would bring some serious jam to our line-up which we're sorely lacking now, and could also take a regular shift.

Depending on how highly the Rags value him I feel like this could be a good move for us.

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Old
07-02-2012, 09:43 PM
  #46
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I think where this becomes interesting is how it impacts which prospects push for a spot out of training camp.

Does the loss of Foligno give Noesen slightly better of a chance than he did before?

Does the loss of Carkner give a better chance to Gryba? Or give a slight edge to Gryba over Borowiecki because he is a better hitter and fighter?

Does the loss of Konopka give Kramer slightly more of a look in training camp than he would have otherwise?

Has the loss of toughness increased the chances of making the team for Borowiecki and Dziurzynski?

Overall, like I have stated earlier, we are in a good situation because we have a decent amount of tough and/or physical prospects who are close to becoming NHL players.

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Old
07-02-2012, 09:47 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
With only a day into free agency, we have lost a significant amount of the toughness from the roster. While we may have improved as a team either offensively or defensively from our acquisitions, the loss of Carkner, Konopka and Foligno has certainly created a bit of a toughness void that needs to be addressed.

Currently we are left with only three truly tough players in Neil, Smith and Cowen and a few more physical players in Lattendresse, Methot and Greening. It will be interesting to see which players are promoted internally to fill the toughness void.

We have a few physical and gritty players in Zibanejad, Noesen, O'Brien and Stone. Then we have a few tough and nasty players in Gryba, Blood, Borowiecki, Dziurzynski and Kramer.
Without reading the other posts I agree with this point and it has been a concern of mine. Sens will have a great regular season with a lot of youth and skill scoring points, but then someone like NYR or Philly will feed us our lunch (through a straw). I hope this changes or Murray picks up someone at the deadline.

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07-02-2012, 09:52 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MaindotC View Post
Without reading the other posts I agree with this point and it has been a concern of mine. Sens will have a great regular season with a lot of youth and skill scoring points, but then someone like NYR or Philly will feed us our lunch (through a straw). I hope this changes or Murray picks up someone at the deadline.
I disagree.

While Konopka and Carkner were tough enough, losing them won't affect our overall toughness a whole lot.

This isn't 10 years ago. Nobody has pushed Ottawa around in a real long time. Our players will step up.

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07-02-2012, 10:21 PM
  #49
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Konopka's toughness wasn't really much.

Carkner's intimidation will be felt as a loss...

Fighting doesn't equal toughness..

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07-02-2012, 10:39 PM
  #50
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Shades of Volchenkov here.



Actually, Volchenkov was never tall enough to plant the guy, but I always remember him doing a similar move.
Shades, yeah I could agree with that...



...but oh god do I ever miss A-Train...why Murray, why?!?!

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