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Brandon Prust to Montreal [4 years, $10M]

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Old
07-02-2012, 06:22 PM
  #451
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That doesn't have to be a bad thing if we actually get our own identity.
It's not a bad thing. People act as if Bergevin preached some Burkesque hillbilly squad of goons. He didn't. He wants a mix. Montreal's identity has always been a mix of Speed, skill and toughness that gives you several options to counter any given situation. A solid bottom 6 is a good way to start moving towards that. I'd rather us have a better 4th line C than Noke, but whatevs.

Prust was one of the guys I really wanted this offseason and he better prove me right.

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07-02-2012, 06:22 PM
  #452
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Can Marco fight?
I heard he had a good header

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07-02-2012, 06:23 PM
  #453
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Can Marco fight?
You haven't watched much italian soccer, have you?

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07-02-2012, 06:25 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Then bring up his fighting majors (which he does have a lot off) but PIM are a measure of negative value, not positive.

I like it when my team plays in a way that allows it them to win. Skeptical that Prust adds so much to that he's worth mid-level 3rd line player dollars.

What dollar price do you put on Prust's fighting? I don't think its worth 1-1.5 million. Not when the team has bigger needs and cap issues.
You do realize that a 5 PIM for fighting also includes a guy from the other team with a 5 PIM for fighting......right?

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07-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #455
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If you really think we have the guns to do the Full Retard Mambo with Boston, you'll quickly find out that they've been teaching that dance class for years. We don't have what it takes, not nearly enough, and I wish people would drop it already. Their identity is not our own, and it never will be.
There is a reason why there is so much hate between the Bruins and the Habs.

Its because the Bruins have been able to do anything they want to any Habs player and not have anything to worry about it. The Bruins have/had ZERO RESPECT for anyone on the Canadiens team (maybe with the exception of White).

The idea to build firepower is not to scorch everything in sight. No, it is there to cut down on the use of firepower.

Proof of that was the Ottawa Senators of last season. They had plenty of firepower on their team with Carkner, Neil, Konopka, Smith and Foligno to a lesser extent. One would think that every time that they would play the Bruins, it would be a fight filled game with thuggery (or truculence for the ex Gauthier fans ) and beatings on the blood covered ice.

Ottawa had 53 fighting majors last season. Only 6 involved the Bruins. Respect for toughness actually turned those games between the two into actual hockey games played with skill.

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07-02-2012, 06:44 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by CHill Seeker View Post
Bruin fans are butt hurt and confused. why? because the intimidation game is over. with three legitimate guys in white, moen and prust who can all handle themselves, thornton. Mcquaid and that rat marchand won't be running roughshod over guys and lucic may be a big quieter
Haha no Bruins fans are ******** or confused... but a lot of us are excited. The Bruins are still tougher but the games will be more interesting. No one you named is gonna keep Lucic quiet by the way. The guy on your team that most worries me is Emelin. He's gonna break someone's hip with one of his hip checks.

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07-02-2012, 07:08 PM
  #457
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Geez some of you guys need to watch Prust play before you compare him to Tom Kostopolous. As a Rangers fan I can easily say he has been my favourite Ranger over the past few years.

One of the best PK'ers in the league, he was constantly on the first PK. He is also a very fast skater once he gets into his stride, which only adds to his aggression. I have never seen such a guy take on so many players that were clearly bigger than he was, love the toughness in this dude.

He also loves the box, but who doesnt..

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07-02-2012, 08:13 PM
  #458
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Too expensive, and will cost assets to get him.

NOT interested!!!
They don't give players away for nothing. It either costs assets when a player is under contract and you acquire him through trade, or it costs a lot of money as a UFA as teams are in a bidding war to get him.

I see that Buffalo has him. Good for them. I like Ott.

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07-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #459
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You do realize that a 5 PIM for fighting also includes a guy from the other team with a 5 PIM for fighting......right?
Yes. But if he meant fighting majors say fighting majors. Otherwise PIM are pure negative for your team. The only place its a positive is fantasy sports.

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There is a reason why there is so much hate between the Bruins and the Habs.

Its because the Bruins have been able to do anything they want to any Habs player and not have anything to worry about it. The Bruins have/had ZERO RESPECT for anyone on the Canadiens team (maybe with the exception of White).

The idea to build firepower is not to scorch everything in sight. No, it is there to cut down on the use of firepower.

Proof of that was the Ottawa Senators of last season. They had plenty of firepower on their team with Carkner, Neil, Konopka, Smith and Foligno to a lesser extent. One would think that every time that they would play the Bruins, it would be a fight filled game with thuggery (or truculence for the ex Gauthier fans ) and beatings on the blood covered ice.

Ottawa had 53 fighting majors last season. Only 6 involved the Bruins. Respect for toughness actually turned those games between the two into actual hockey games played with skill.
6/53= 0.113. 11% of Ottawa fights against Bruins

6/82= 0.073. 7.3% of Ottawa's games against Bruins.

11/7.3 = 1.51. Ottawa fights are half again more likely to be against the Bruins than against a normal team.

Not that you're wrong but your evidence does not support your conclusion.

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07-02-2012, 08:43 PM
  #460
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if you don't understand the difference between what a player like Prust can add to the team vs guys like Halpern/McClement/Moore, then that explains everything.

Let alone the fact that we had 2 of those 3 in our lineup in recent years, and while both fulfilled their roles adequately, even the previous management group (who apparently like yourself, did not value the physical aspect/impact of role players) decided that they were both redundant and easily replaceable. Likewise, when they left montreal, they weren't getting 2M$+ offers... There's a reason why Prust was able to hold out for and get more.

if you don't appreciate toughness, or the role it plays in a contact sport, so be it. Thankfully, our new management understands/appreciates it far better than the previous group did, and their first moves reflect that strongly.

Being "hard to play against" (in the physical sense) is a very real factor. Even successful teams that didn't have particularly "goonish" players on their roster, had/have several individuals that opposing players would be wary of on the flight in. You don't get nervous/worried about lining up against a Moore or a Halpern.

Psychology is a massive part of sport, ignoring it's impact because it isn't superficially or statistically obvious doesn't negate it's impact.

adding a token goon like Laraque is a misguided attempt at addressing this need... stocking your bottom six with guys like Moen, White, Prust, Armstrong is a much much better approach... especially when they complement skilled players (Eller, Leblanc?, Palushaj?) and specific use players (Noke).
I know what you and others think it brings to the team. I just disagree on it having the effect you think it does.

Sports psychology is how you view the game and that's nice. But we're not talking real scientific sports psychology here. We're talking about folklore and pop psychology here. No systemic observation or hypothesis tested. This isn't empiricism, this is folk religion dressed up in fancy talk.

Now you believe that adding bottom line toughness will necessarily make the team better. That having these guys will prevent other teams from taking liberties which leads to confidence and so one. But here's were it falls down if it does work (which again something assumed and not proven):

I don't believe deterrence works in the slightest in the modern NHL. Every team gets cheap shotted and the tough ones can't anything about it. Cooke took out Savard with Lucic and Chara on the ice and just after Thorton had a shift. And Montreal's injury problems, last year almost none of them are due being victims of dirty plays.

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07-02-2012, 09:52 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I know what you and others think it brings to the team. I just disagree on it having the effect you think it does.

Sports psychology is how you view the game and that's nice. But we're not talking real scientific sports psychology here. We're talking about folklore and pop psychology here. No systemic observation or hypothesis tested. This isn't empiricism, this is folk religion dressed up in fancy talk.

Now you believe that adding bottom line toughness will necessarily make the team better. That having these guys will prevent other teams from taking liberties which leads to confidence and so one. But here's were it falls down if it does work (which again something assumed and not proven):

I don't believe deterrence works in the slightest in the modern NHL. Every team gets cheap shotted and the tough ones can't anything about it. Cooke took out Savard with Lucic and Chara on the ice and just after Thorton had a shift. And Montreal's injury problems, last year almost none of them are due being victims of dirty plays.
I have said this at least a hundred times on this Forum.

Having a tough team will not prevent cheap shots.

I am sure that I will have to repeat that again as it has become the false projection of choice when it comes to fighting in hockey.

No, the reason to have someone who can fight on a hockey team is retribution, team building and cohesiveness, self-respect and pride. All of that leads to players coming together as a team instead of having a group of individuals who are on the ice at the same time.

I know you dont get it. But that's OK. As long as our management gets it, that is all that matters.

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07-02-2012, 10:00 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I have said this at least a hundred times on this Forum.

Having a tough team will not prevent cheap shots.

I am sure that I will have to repeat that again as it has become the false projection of choice when it comes to fighting in hockey.

No, the reason to have someone who can fight on a hockey team is retribution, team building and cohesiveness, self-respect and pride. All of that leads to players coming together as a team instead of having a group of individuals who are on the ice at the same time.

I know you dont get it. But that's OK. As long as our management gets it, that is all that matters.
That's fine. I don't require you to agree with me either. But I think you believe in a fairy tale that getting these kind of guys will have significant effects on how the top players perform. That the impact of having these guys is storytelling and folklore, confirmation bias and tiger proof rocks. Most of all.,I think this is something people believe because its what their forefathers taught us and is constantly repeated rather than thinking about it for ourselves.

But you don't have to get that.

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07-02-2012, 10:03 PM
  #463
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Couple of things:

1. Leblanc should play in the AHL at least MOST of the year.

2. Gionta is still a very valuable player to the Habs and a good player. Hudler and Parenteau signed for 4 million each. They are both weak defensively and not nearly the leader or as experienced as Gio is.

3. Sure, we downgraded in skill within our bottom six. However, with how much we improved in work ethic and sandpaper, it will only improve our overall team offense. A lot less floating and predictability. If the Habs are finding a hard time generating energy, we can just send out our 3rd and 4th lines. Just because the bottom two lines dont have a lot of offense does not mean it weakens the teams offense.

Besides if Armstrong can find his game he could be relatively potent with Eller.

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07-02-2012, 10:31 PM
  #464
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If Moore wants to sign here, that'd be great. One hell of a bottom-6 and a top 6 with 6 proven 20-30 goal scorers. You all need to remember that Armstrong is a 35-40 pts that plays with a lot a grit, he just has to stay healthy, which as never been a problem before Toronto. Now, I know people are ******** on Bourque, but he only had a rough year. It's not Gomez all over again, at least I think so, you just have to put him with two workers and he's work, that's why you split the big line, anyway, you can't have him play with Plekanec and get all rough minutes he gets :

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Bourque - Desharnais - Cole
Moen - Eller - Armstrong
Prust - Moore - White

With that bottom-6, it's more like two 3rd lines than a 3rd and a 4th. Each line can easily play 10minutes of ES hockey.

Now.. You gotta beefin up the D-Squad or MT will give one of his famous presser some time this year

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07-02-2012, 10:56 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
That's fine. I don't require you to agree with me either. But I think you believe in a fairy tale that getting these kind of guys will have significant effects on how the top players perform. That the impact of having these guys is storytelling and folklore, confirmation bias and tiger proof rocks. Most of all.,I think this is something people believe because its what their forefathers taught us and is constantly repeated rather than thinking about it for ourselves.

But you don't have to get that.
Do you watch hockey? Especially the Habs' games? Have you seen the effect Staubitz had on our club last year, how all our players became more courageous? How all of them praised him? The Habs looked like a different club. Certainly you cannot deny that. This has happened. No folklore. Now this must happen again but on a larger squale. The boys must feel like when they go to war, they have all the big guns to be able to do what they want to do. Prust was the first move. Hopefully others will join in down the line too. And maybe the Habs will have something ressembling a team sooner than later.

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07-02-2012, 11:03 PM
  #466
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Do you watch hockey? Especially the Habs' games? Have you seen the effect Staubitz had on our club last year, how all our players became more courageous? How all of them praised him? The Habs looked like a different club. Certainly you cannot deny that. This has happened. No folklore. Now this must happen again but on a larger squale. The boys must feel like when they go to war, they have all the big guns to be able to do what they want to do. Prust was the first move. Hopefully others will join in down the line too. And maybe the Habs will have something ressembling a team sooner than later.
I watch lots of hockey. I don't put much stock in traditional North American hockey narratives though.

I saw a team that was doing badly and didn't play any better with the addition of Staublitz. And was worse for having to dress I guy that can't keep up with an NHL level play.

How did that courage help? What was the actual worth of such victories for morale?

But lets get back to the topic, paying Prust 2.5 million on a 4 year term. This is essentially double 4th line salaries. If this thing you want exists and is prevalent in NHL 4th lines, its available for far less than what Montreal paid for it.

Right or wrong Bergevin balked at the prices top six forwards were going for this off-season. But spent 1.5 million less for the same term 4th line winger who didn't fit a positional need.


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07-02-2012, 11:10 PM
  #467
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I saw a team that was doing badly and didn't play any better with the addition of Staublitz. And was worse for having to dress I guy that can't keep up with an NHL level play.
I am not a fan of fighting overall, but I do think sometimes it does help morale to have someone to stand up for you when you are getting bullied and the refs allow it to happen. Sometimes you can't walk away. I was never so mad at the Chara thing as I was about the game before that when we got a beat down from the Bruins and its pretty tough to not engage when you are being attacked like that. It's not like it was Pyatt's fault Campbell was ramming his elbow pad into his face. And the refs are pretty inconsistent sometimes, and rougher teams sometimes get away with this stuff. Sometimes it doesnt work out that way either.

But if I have to go to a job where there is a possibility of me being beat up without management interfering, I would feel a bit better knowing there is someone there to back me up.

Is it a myth? Well, the players say it makes them feel a bit better too. A happy worker is a good one. So if a myth keeps them happy.....
We are not going to be one of the more rugged teams in the league. We can't win fights against a team loaded with good fighters. But having guys who can handle themselves a bit better and who will stand up for others is a good thing.

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07-02-2012, 11:20 PM
  #468
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I am not a fan of fighting overall, but I do think sometimes it does help morale to have someone to stand up for you when you are getting bullied and the refs allow it to happen. Sometimes you can't walk away. I was never so mad at the Chara thing as I was about the game before that when we got a beat down from the Bruins and its pretty tough to not engage when you are being attacked like that. It's not like it was Pyatt's fault Campbell was ramming his elbow pad into his face. And the refs are pretty inconsistent sometimes, and rougher teams sometimes get away with this stuff. Sometimes it doesnt work out that way either.

But if I have to go to a job where there is a possibility of me being beat up without management interfering, I would feel a bit better knowing there is someone there to back me up.

Is it a myth? Well, the players say it makes them feel a bit better too. A happy worker is a good one. So if a myth keeps them happy.....
We are not going to be one of the more rugged teams in the league. We can't win fights against a team loaded with good fighters. But having guys who can handle themselves a bit better and who will stand up for others is a good thing.
There is a degree that may be true and insuring against it isn't bad.

But not in a way I'd hand out that kind of money to Prust. Not when the team had key positional needs. Its different getting this thing as part of a package in a cheap White or one of the many servicible bottom six players that fall through the cracks every year. Its another to go out looking for it and severely overpay to beat out a bidding war to get it.

This weekend Prust+Boullion essentially was the price for a 2nd line winger or a number 4 defenseman. That's the opportunity cost here.

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07-02-2012, 11:20 PM
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07-02-2012, 11:26 PM
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Look at the size difference. Wonder if Looch would go with John Scott?

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07-02-2012, 11:31 PM
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Look at the size difference. Wonder if Looch would go with John Scott?
I'm pretty sure even Chara wouldn't go against John Scott.

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07-02-2012, 11:37 PM
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There is a degree that may be true and insuring against it isn't bad.

But not in a way I'd hand out that kind of money to Prust. Not when the team had key positional needs. Its different getting this thing as part of a package in a cheap White or one of the many servicible bottom six players that fall through the cracks every year. Its another to go out looking for it and severely overpay to beat out a bidding war to get it.

This weekend Prust+Boullion essentially was the price for a 2nd line winger or a number 4 defenseman. That's the opportunity cost here.
That's the part I can't get away from, either.

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07-02-2012, 11:38 PM
  #473
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I know what you and others think it brings to the team. I just disagree on it having the effect you think it does.

Sports psychology is how you view the game and that's nice. But we're not talking real scientific sports psychology here. We're talking about folklore and pop psychology here. No systemic observation or hypothesis tested. This isn't empiricism, this is folk religion dressed up in fancy talk.

Now you believe that adding bottom line toughness will necessarily make the team better. That having these guys will prevent other teams from taking liberties which leads to confidence and so one. But here's were it falls down if it does work (which again something assumed and not proven):

I don't believe deterrence works in the slightest in the modern NHL. Every team gets cheap shotted and the tough ones can't anything about it. Cooke took out Savard with Lucic and Chara on the ice and just after Thorton had a shift. And Montreal's injury problems, last year almost none of them are due being victims of dirty plays.
i'm speaking from personal experience... what kind of evidence are you relying on?

and trust me, sports psychology is far more than "pop" psychology... even if, like any scientific field involving the brain, we have only begun to scratch the surface of knowledge.

as for empiricism, I've yet to see any empirical evidence that conclusively speaks to team building... aside from the very basic Wins/Losses, or goals for/goals against type.

so much of the statistical "evidence" that gets touted around here falls far far short of any kind of valid empirical study, despite what some would have you believe... even within that stat obsessed community, there is strong diverstity over the metrics considered most important to measure.


it's not about injuries, it's about what is going through the mind of the players (on both teams) the day/hour/minute before the game. the impact of nerves/anxiety on performance are huge, though not consistent from player to player.

what is consistent, is that no one "likes" to get hurt from a hit, and every athlete in a competitive sport prefers it when the opposition isn't capable/willing of physically hurting you...

when you roll lines featuring guys like Darche, Halpern, Moore, Palushaj, Weber et. you may get some bursts of skill and some one-dimensional assets, but you get nothing in the physical department, and the guys in the other room getting ready to play have one less emotional/psychological aspect to worry about. Internally, wether you choose to accept it or not, knowing that you have some tough SOB's on your team that are watching your ass goes a LONG LONG way to making you feel more at ease... wether or not their precense actually impacts the odds of you suffering a serious injury or taking a cheap shot.

the mistake is to assume that players, or any human being for that matter, operates based on logical assessments of their environment. Study after study shows that we don't, and yet policy after policy gets written assuming we do.
Doesn't matter wether statistically there is any evidence to the impact of "fighters" or "tough guys" on injuries or cheap shots.... what matters is what the guys in the locker room think and feel.

unless you've been in that kind of enviroment, i wonder wether any amount of stat checking can give you the kind of understanding that comes with experience?

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07-02-2012, 11:43 PM
  #474
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That's the part I can't get away from, either.
but that's just a question of framing...

would you really be happier with our roster if we had added Hudler @ 4M$?

how about Jokinen @ 4.5M$?


and beyond that, reality is that if our management team thought that adding Hudler at 4M$ was a good fit, we'd have been in that running... even with the taxes, I'd be surprised if Hudler turned down montreal for Calgary with the same offer on the table.

I don't think the 4M$ we spent on bouillion/prust has had any impact whatsoever on the top 4/top 6 players our management team has identified as worth targeting, nor would/will those two signings impact us being able to upgrade those positions via trade in-season or signing next season.

so looking at them as an opportunity cost for other roles is, imo, a faulty premise.

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07-02-2012, 11:46 PM
  #475
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Opportunity cost implies you have to make a trade off, but that's not what this is.

We can still sign a player in the $4million range. Not out of the question, even if we'll be tight against the cap. Gomez can be buried, worst comes to worse.

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