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So many lost lead

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07-03-2012, 07:27 AM
  #1
PricePkPatch
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So many lost lead

There is a lot of talk about our performance last year. About how our anemic PP killed us, and where the oh so many 1-goal losses could have been won had we put it in @ 5 Vs 4

Something else left me pondering. It was the (probably justified) general opinion on this board last year that we let too many leads slip between our fingers.

Was it because we played too defensively? Because our player lacked heart and were losers at heart?

I had a small epiphany watching Spain holding their 2-0 lead on Sunday. Sure, Spain played defensively. But more importantly: they played defensively in a way meant to burn out the italians.

Here is my theory: we failed to protect our leads so many times because, while playing defensively, we didnt adopted a strategy that would tire out the opposition. We would simply intercept/recover and dump in the far end. We would keep matching our top line against theirs.

Is is a possibility that a heavy bottom 6 would make a strong difference in protecting our lead? Literally grinding the opponent's top lines, tiring them out and reserve our defensive top lines for tight spots. (defensive zone face-off, etc...)

Or am I completely off-track and should put on the Maple Leaf Hat of Hockey Shame?

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07-03-2012, 07:30 AM
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Lord Chezz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
There is a lot of talk about our performance last year. About how our anemic PP killed us, and where the oh so many 1-goal losses could have been won had we put it in @ 5 Vs 4

Something else left me pondering. It was the (probably justified) general opinion on this board last year that we let too many leads slip between our fingers.

Was it because we played too defensively? Because our player lacked heart and were losers at heart?

I had a small epiphany watching Spain holding their 2-0 lead on Sunday. Sure, Spain played defensively. But more importantly: they played defensively in a way meant to burn out the italians.

Here is my theory: we failed to protect our leads so many times because, while playing defensively, we didnt adopted a strategy that would tire out the opposition. We would simply intercept/recover and dump in the far end. We would keep matching our top line against theirs.

Is is a possibility that a heavy bottom 6 would make a strong difference in protecting our lead? Literally grinding the opponent's top lines, tiring them out and reserve our defensive top lines for tight spots. (defensive zone face-off, etc...)

Or am I completely off-track and should put on the Maple Leaf Hat of Hockey Shame?
That sir, was good old Jacques Martin hockey.

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07-03-2012, 07:32 AM
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No, you're not off track at all. Having a more dependable bottom six will make a good difference in keeping the top six fresh and will help the team give a solid 60 minute effort. Bouillon will also be a major upgrade on Campoli in those situations.

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07-03-2012, 07:36 AM
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PricePkPatch
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More dependable, but especially, more aggressive and energetic!

A bottom 6 that consistantly hit hard checks for 15 minutes makes a helluva difference in the last 3 minutes when the opponents are in desperation mode.

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07-03-2012, 08:28 AM
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Last year we had 1 good line. Plex line was missing key parts all year which is a sign of a woeful lack of depth and our bottome 6 was abysmal. Not to mention we barely had a legitimate NHL defense corp last year for most of the season.

Add all these together and you have a recipe for disaster.

We've addressed the bottom 6 now we need to get another account winger for Plex and a bit more on defense in the way of a big physical shut down defenseman IMO. If we can do that we should be good to go this year.

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07-03-2012, 08:50 AM
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A better defensive will always be a better offensive....

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07-03-2012, 08:53 AM
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Dont worry, we wont have many leads to blow this season.

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Old
07-03-2012, 09:10 AM
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habs03
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To be honest, I don't want to look at the 2nd half of the year, beacuse it felt like everyone just gave up, so much bs around the team, wtv the case was, PG, media, major injuries etc.

But if you look at how the Habs played for the first 30 games about, they played well, but like you said, end up giving up leads at the end, I really blame that on the power play, in years past if we were up 2-1, 3-2 or wtv, our PP would strike and give us that extra breathing more, this year, our pp was just horrible, not only not scoring, but giving momentum.

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07-03-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
No, you're not off track at all. Having a more dependable bottom six will make a good difference in keeping the top six fresh and will help the team give a solid 60 minute effort. Bouillon will also be a major upgrade on Campoli in those situations.
Exactly !

+ Therrien and his coaching staff will make sure the team is in top physical shape and can play full 60 minutes of energetic hockey. The injuries to key players dis not help too lastr season + a very inexperienced d-corp.

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07-03-2012, 09:37 AM
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I hated Martins style, get a goal and then play defensively until they scored and then try for another is a stupid way to play hockey, you have to get up and stay up imho, go go go all the time never stop trying to get goals and then just let your defense work the whole game like that stopping the other side from getting to your net and you win! lol

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07-03-2012, 09:42 AM
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PricePkPatch
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Being a defensive wasn't the problem. The problem is that we didn't deliberately tired the opposition out while we had the advantage.

This year, I believe it will be different.

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Old
07-03-2012, 09:44 AM
  #12
axman88
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I'm pumped for next season...

Cole - Desharnais - Pacioretti

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta

Moen - Eller - Armstrong

Prust - Gomez - White

extra forwards: Nokeleinan, Blunden, Palushaj


Markov - Emelin

Subban - Gorges

Kaberlei - Bouillon

Extra defenseman: Webber, Diaz

Price
Budaj

and there's always the possibility that one of the forward lines gets taken over by the likes of
Gallager - Galcheinyuk

I'd also rather someone else then Bourque on the second line and another top 4 shutdown defenseman

But compared to last year....much better...and last year we lost alot of shootout games and 1 goal games and leads....this year we should be able to make the playoffs and compete!

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07-03-2012, 09:59 AM
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No effective forecheck.

Our forecheck was pretty much non-existent. Our guys weren't strong, fast or big enough to maintain pressure in the offensive zone and give solid checks. And our blue line, besides Subban and sometimes Kaberle, was absolutely incompetent at keeping pucks in the zone, more than any other season I've been watching the habs.

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07-03-2012, 10:03 AM
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TennisMenace
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Good thread.
Three glaring weaknesses after lack of scoring past one line:
1. PP
2. Blown 3rd period leads
3. Shootouts

I concur- a stronger bottom 6 will improve on the blown 3rd period leads for sure. Plus, a healthy Markov and Gionta should improve the first mentioned weakness.

Not sure what improves the 3rd weakness except maybe more practice.

Fellows, trying not to sound to euphoric, we're really not THAT BAD. We will compete each game; only this time, we will win many more close games.

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07-03-2012, 10:09 AM
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Galaad64
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I am not that much thrilled with next year because we did not address a critical issue:

What snipers do we have to put on shootout ?

We lost a lot of game that way !

I pray Branden Gallagher and Louis Leblanc will get to next level like Paciorrety and Desharnais ... But it will not be Moen, Prust or Armstrong that will help there !

A lot of questions mark with Bourque, Eller and Gionta !?! If Eller is not a good center and not good wing then what is he for us ?

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07-03-2012, 10:15 AM
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So many blown leads, can be blamed on the coach and players, but at the end of the day its also a Goaltenders responsibility, and partially why I do not like the Price contract.

What makes the difference between a GOOD goalie, and a GREAT goalie? Good goalies keep their teams in games, where as GREAT goalies will steal games, and win games on their own.

Carey price will keep you in almost every game, because he is a good goalie. But, as shown by this statistic, when the time comes to stand on his head to win a game for his team, he simply will not do it. This is what seperates him from the Rinne's and the Lundqvist's of the world.

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07-03-2012, 10:18 AM
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Galaad64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
Good thread.
Three glaring weaknesses after lack of scoring past one line:
1. PP
2. Blown 3rd period leads
3. Shootouts

I concur- a stronger bottom 6 will improve on the blown 3rd period leads for sure. Plus, a healthy Markov and Gionta should improve the first mentioned weakness.

Not sure what improves the 3rd weakness except maybe more practice.

Fellows, trying not to sound to euphoric, we're really not THAT BAD. We will compete each game; only this time, we will win many more close games.

I concur with your three weaknesses and think we will fix 1 and 2. First one through better coaching and Markov in better shape. Second one with the new guys, they bring a lot of grit !

But number 3, we would need a Semin without the attitude and impact on salary cap, lol ! As for a trade, you get the best if you the best like Plekanec !

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07-03-2012, 10:20 AM
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le_sean
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I've said it before, two seasons ago when both Crosby and Malkin were out with injuries, the Pens kept winning. Their bottom 6 carried them. I feel confident that this bottom 6 is just as good, as long as Armstrong is actually healthy. These guys are tough to play against. The Habs used to be a laughing stock and easy to push around but I bet teams are dreading playing Moen, Prust, White and Armstrong. They don't make things easy for opponents.

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07-03-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsPassion View Post
So many blown leads, can be blamed on the coach and players, but at the end of the day its also a Goaltenders responsibility, and partially why I do not like the Price contract.

What makes the difference between a GOOD goalie, and a GREAT goalie? Good goalies keep their teams in games, where as GREAT goalies will steal games, and win games on their own.

Carey price will keep you in almost every game, because he is a good goalie. But, as shown by this statistic, when the time comes to stand on his head to win a game for his team, he simply will not do it. This is what seperates him from the Rinne's and the Lundqvist's of the world.
I think you've gone over the top and have to retreat a bit. "Good" for someone who can play over 70 games is faint praise indeed. You must think Price has no room for improvement but he does. He's younger than those two. And as for winning games, to say he simply will not is Tierscheiss (or is it Pferdscheiss?). He's already better than Fleury, a former Cup winner, and he's probably as good as the legendary Brodeur is right now. I'd take him over Rask, a pertinent consideration for a team in the Northeast division.

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07-03-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
There is a lot of talk about our performance last year. About how our anemic PP killed us, and where the oh so many 1-goal losses could have been won had we put it in @ 5 Vs 4
Scott Gomez
PP TOI = 88:59
2 Goals
1 Assist

I hate to keep bringing up Gomez and blaming him for a ton of the woes from last season but damn, Eller produced just as much with 30 mins less of PP time but Gomez averaged 2 mins 20 secs per game on the PP while Eller averaged 39 secs
I think the first big loss of the season came when Muller got the job in Carolina

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07-03-2012, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
I've said it before, two seasons ago when both Crosby and Malkin were out with injuries, the Pens kept winning. Their bottom 6 carried them. I feel confident that this bottom 6 is just as good, as long as Armstrong is actually healthy. These guys are tough to play against. The Habs used to be a laughing stock and easy to push around but I bet teams are dreading playing Moen, Prust, White and Armstrong. They don't make things easy for opponents.
The Pens' bottom-6 consisted of Kennedy, Cooke, Talbot, Connor, Adams, Letestu, and Rupp.

Kennedy tossed up 45-points; Cooke with 30 points in 67 gp; Letestu with 27 pts in 64 gp; Talbot with 21 pts, etc.

Basically, expecting Montreal's bottom-6 to generate the same kind of offense would be expecting career highs from all of them. I don't think it's ever a good idea to expect career highs from a group of players simultaenously.

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07-03-2012, 10:55 AM
  #22
HabsPassion
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I think you've gone over the top and have to retreat a bit. "Good" for someone who can play over 70 games is faint praise indeed. You must think Price has no room for improvement but he does. He's younger than those two. And as for winning games, to say he simply will not is Tierscheiss (or is it Pferdscheiss?). He's already better than Fleury, a former Cup winner, and he's probably as good as the legendary Brodeur is right now. I'd take him over Rask, a pertinent consideration for a team in the Northeast division.
I have to retreat? its my opinion and Im entitled to one. I NEVER said he has no room for improvement and judging from your response you have difficulty in comprehension. Statistics dont lie. I refuse to stand here and defend my point, cause at the end of the day only time will tell. Thats my opinion however.

Edit: Not once did I say Fleury is a better goaltender then Price, and Fleury is definitely the weaker of the two. I just said Price, SO FAR, has yet to show me that he can completely take over a game, better yet, a playoff game and "Carey" the team on his back. I hope im proved wrong.

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07-03-2012, 11:02 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by HabsPassion View Post
I have to retreat? its my opinion and Im entitled to one. I NEVER said he has no room for improvement and judging from your response you have difficulty in comprehension. Statistics dont lie. I refuse to stand here and defend my point, cause at the end Wwwof the day only time will tell. Thats my opinion however.

Edit: Not once did I say Fleury is a better goaltender then Price, and Fleury is definitely the weaker of the two. I just said Price, SO FAR, has yet to show me that he can completely take over a game, better yet, a playoff game and "Carey" the team on his back. I hope im proved wrong.
You keep mentioning statistics. Which ones are you referring to please?

I disagree that Price hasn't stolen games. He is just not nearly as dramatic visually doing it.

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Old
07-03-2012, 11:03 AM
  #24
HabsPassion
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You keep mentioning statistics. Which ones are you referring to please?

I disagree that Price hasn't stolen games. He is just not nearly as dramatic visually doing it.
The blowing leads statistics, as well as the 20th in Save%

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07-03-2012, 11:15 AM
  #25
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by HabsPassion View Post
I have to retreat? its my opinion and Im entitled to one. I NEVER said he has no room for improvement and judging from your response you have difficulty in comprehension. Statistics dont lie. I refuse to stand here and defend my point, cause at the end of the day only time will tell. Thats my opinion however.

Edit: Not once did I say Fleury is a better goaltender then Price, and Fleury is definitely the weaker of the two. I just said Price, SO FAR, has yet to show me that he can completely take over a game, better yet, a playoff game and "Carey" the team on his back. I hope im proved wrong.
Are you in a huff in defending your overstated opinion! If Price had become a UFA you could safely bet your inheritance that many NHL teams would gladfly have matched his $6.5M salary or perhaps topped it. It would be becoming of you to remember that he came close to winning the opening playoff round against the Bruins while playing for an eighth place team and would have done so if the Habs had been able to score an OT goal. Blame Chara's hit on Pacioretty or the lack of one more offensive player but certainly not Price. He was fully Thomas's peer in that series. Thomas knew it but apparently you don't.

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