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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): 2012 Regular Season (Finding New Ways to Lose Part 1)

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Old
07-01-2012, 12:48 PM
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I apparently misread the tweet. maybe



Quote:
"@JonHeymanCBS: #phillies have begun calling 2 see about trade interest in Cole Hamels. story 2 come on @CBSSports"hamels won't sign w phils

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07-01-2012, 12:48 PM
  #952
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CBS Sports tweeted Phillies are gauging interest on Hamels. May not re-sign
Saw this too. I think it was heyman that said he wont sign. But I dont know if that means he wont sign until he tests free agency or wont sign at all.

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07-01-2012, 01:11 PM
  #953
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CBS Sports tweeted Hamels wont resign and the Phils are going to looke to move him.
Let the bidding frenzy begin, time to restock the farm system anyway. Rangers have apparently been scouting Hamels and make for an ideal trade partner. There's no way they include Jurickson Profar in a deal, unfortunately, but Mike Olt (MIKE OLT!) is the perfect piece for us at a place of dire need (3B). He's annihilating AA and should be ready for the bigs by next season.

Mike Olt, Leonys Martin, Cody Buckel, and another prospect (Neil Ramirez, perhaps) would be palatable for me.

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07-01-2012, 03:20 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Let the bidding frenzy begin, time to restock the farm system anyway. Rangers have apparently been scouting Hamels and make for an ideal trade partner. There's no way they include Jurickson Profar in a deal, unfortunately, but Mike Olt (MIKE OLT!) is the perfect piece for us at a place of dire need (3B). He's annihilating AA and should be ready for the bigs by next season.

Mike Olt, Leonys Martin, Cody Buckel, and another prospect (Neil Ramirez, perhaps) would be palatable for me.
The thing about Hamels though, is that I saw him as being the bridge between this current run, and their next run. If he goes, I'm not sure what to expect in the next several years. It makes more sense to me to move Lee, unless Hamels really won't resign at all.

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07-01-2012, 03:37 PM
  #955
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The thing about Hamels though, is that I saw him as being the bridge between this current run, and their next run. If he goes, I'm not sure what to expect in the next several years. It makes more sense to me to move Lee, unless Hamels really won't resign at all.
Trust me, I want to keep Cole, and for the same reason you mentioned. I want him to be a career Phillie. I'm just increasingly pessimistic he'll sign here, especially given what a train wreck this situation is shaping up to be -- with, seemingly, not much hope for the immediate future. What's crazy is that the Phillies were all too happy to fork over 5/120 for Lee but appear reluctant to offer Cole 6/150 or 7/175.

The thing about trading Lee... we'd be selling very low on him right now. I doubt a team would be willing to give up worthwhile players/prospects while having to assume the rest of his contract. It'd basically amount to a salary dump, and I wonder how willing RAJ would be to **** all over him again like that.

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07-01-2012, 04:00 PM
  #956
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Nice of the Phils to show up this weekend. Season is just about over.

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07-01-2012, 04:01 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Let the bidding frenzy begin, time to restock the farm system anyway. Rangers have apparently been scouting Hamels and make for an ideal trade partner. There's no way they include Jurickson Profar in a deal, unfortunately, but Mike Olt (MIKE OLT!) is the perfect piece for us at a place of dire need (3B). He's annihilating AA and should be ready for the bigs by next season.

Mike Olt, Leonys Martin, Cody Buckel, and another prospect (Neil Ramirez, perhaps) would be palatable for me.
Justin Grimm, or Martin Perez have to be involved IMO.

Olt, Martin, Grimm/Perez, Ramirez/Scheppers. The idea is floating around that the asking price for Cole is 4-5 prospects. Pretty highly touted ones.

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07-01-2012, 04:08 PM
  #958
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Justin Grimm, or Martin Perez have to be involved IMO.

Olt, Martin, Grimm/Perez, Ramirez/Scheppers. The idea is floating around that the asking price for Cole is 4-5 prospects. Pretty highly touted ones.
What's the fascination with Martin Perez, aside from him being 21 y/o and ranked highly as a prospect? His numbers in the minors have been anything but impressive for going on three years now. Or is it just that he's 21 and all the hype is based on projection? It's not like he's even got a big frame that he's still growing into. I've never seen him pitch, so maybe someone else could enlighten me here.

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07-01-2012, 06:27 PM
  #959
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I'd be fine with them basically gutting the team at this point. Victorino, Hamels, and anyone over 30 with value that's tradeable would be on the block if I was RAJ.

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07-01-2012, 06:53 PM
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I'd be fine with them basically gutting the team at this point. Victorino, Hamels, and anyone over 30 with value that's tradeable would be on the block if I was RAJ.
Even though I like a lot of players, at least trading some players for some possible stud prospects would actually make this season feel interesting for once.

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07-01-2012, 11:35 PM
  #961
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ugh, i dont understand why john clark nbc 10 wants manuel on this team, despite the fact how much this team is tanking, i mean come on really? how is it not his fault? i mean rich dube is a joke, that's why all the pitchers are tanking, he should be out the door, so is the hitting coach, manuel should be making changes to make this team better,

he's just a lame duck manager.

with hamels, they are saying that the fo is not even close to signing him, although howard and john agreeing that he should be signed not traded, well if they aren't going to sign him, trade him, hamels is not answer to this team, they need to ride out lee and doc, dump blanton, kentrick, use the money for the bullpen, a descent starter and an outfielder, dont overspend on one pitcher like lee , they need the money to fix other areas bullpen, outfield etc

hopefully with a new staff, this team will be back again.

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07-02-2012, 12:06 AM
  #962
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I don't think it's the coaches. In the past 5 years this team has won 5 division titles, 2 NL pennants and a World Series, but now 1 bad half a season and it's time to fire Charlie? I personally don't understand. They've proven they can play for these coaches before. I think it's the players fault. They're just having a rough year.

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07-02-2012, 06:56 AM
  #963
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Charlie doesn't seem to be altering the approach to hitting at all, which is why people are calling for his head. I don't buy it, but it's easier to replace a coach than replace a whole team.

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07-02-2012, 11:05 AM
  #964
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I don't put all the blame on Charlie, but it's not like he's free of fault either. He's simply not the manager you want for a team that isn't a powerhouse because he's a poor tactician and in-game manager. Where he's excelled is motivating his players and getting them to play hard for him. Once losing starts to permeate a clubhouse and destroys hope, that skill diminishes in effectiveness and becomes stale. I just think the entire era in general has run its course, and what's happened so far this season really isn't all that shocking. Time to turn the page, and I'm fine starting with making Ryne Sandberg the big league manager. Use Hamels and other pieces with value (Pence, Victorino, a healthy Halladay, etc.) to get worthwhile assets that can accelerate the rebuilding process.

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07-02-2012, 01:05 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'd be fine with them basically gutting the team at this point. Victorino, Hamels, and anyone over 30 with value that's tradeable would be on the block if I was RAJ.
So everyone? Minus Pence, Mayberry and some bullpen arms.

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07-02-2012, 08:02 PM
  #966
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Charlie doesn't seem to be altering the approach to hitting at all, which is why people are calling for his head. I don't buy it, but it's easier to replace a coach than replace a whole team.
Last time this happened they just blamed Milt Thompson.

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07-02-2012, 09:38 PM
  #967
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Charlie can tell them to switch how they hit all he wants, the players gotta do it.

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07-03-2012, 10:03 AM
  #968
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm weirdly excited about a potential fire sale. At least it would provide some form of entertainment and intrigue with regard to the future. The truth of the matter is the Phillies have become stale, with very little hope on the horizon when you look at the farm system and then consider that the current big league core is composed of injury-prone geriatrics -- signed to bloated contracts -- on the downsides of their careers.

If Amaro stays the course with this roster and continues to delay the inevitable, it's only going to set the franchise back even more years. Then again, we're talking about a supreme egomaniac who's as smug and proud as they come, so I have a hard time thinking he'll just admit defeat, as doing so would basically amount to admitting his deficiencies as a general manager and team-builder. If Amaro truly had the best interests of the team in mind instead of his own, he'd acknowledge that using the valuable assets currently on the roster to ensure a brighter tomorrow is the right way to go. Hamels, Pence, Victorino, one of Halladay or Lee, Polanco. Put Rollins on the table too, even though he now has the trade veto option. Hell, dangle Chooch. His value will never be higher than it is now. The one thing Amaro can't do is sit on his hands and hope things will be better next year. They won't.

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07-03-2012, 10:26 AM
  #969
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm weirdly excited about a potential fire sale. At least it would provide some form of entertainment and intrigue with regard to the future. The truth of the matter is the Phillies have become stale, with very little hope on the horizon when you look at the farm system and then consider that the current big league core is composed of injury-prone geriatrics -- signed to bloated contracts -- on the downsides of their careers.

If Amaro stays the course with this roster and continues to delay the inevitable, it's only going to set the franchise back even more years. Then again, we're talking about a supreme egomaniac who's as smug and proud as they come, so I have a hard time thinking he'll just admit defeat, as doing so would basically amount to admitting his deficiencies as a general manager and team-builder. If Amaro truly had the best interests of the team in mind instead of his own, he'd acknowledge that using the valuable assets currently on the roster to ensure a brighter tomorrow is the right way to go. Hamels, Pence, Victorino, one of Halladay or Lee, Polanco. Put Rollins on the table too, even though he now has the trade veto option. Hell, dangle Chooch. His value will never be higher than it is now. The one thing Amaro can't do is sit on his hands and hope things will be better next year. They won't.
The problem is you can't really do this at this point. It may be what seems best for the team, but it may not really be the case if they don't get back players that pan out. Amaro is in a very difficult position. If you go fire sale, and get rid of everyone, what do you do for the next couple years?

I don't think you can go fire sale, or stand pat. You have to go somewhere in between. The Phils have the most popular team in the city, and their ability to sign, trade for, and extend players has stemmed from their fan support. If they ruin that by fielding the Nationals of the past 5 years, they may not get the TV contract they should, and that may set them back even further.

With the Phillies in the position they're currently in, you can't just off everyone at once. You have to try to transition into your next run, instead of crashing to Earth, and then shooting back up in 4 or 5 years.

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07-03-2012, 10:51 AM
  #970
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Well, place me in the column of those who believe this season deserves a mulligan considering their injuries.

They were 1st in the majors last year with almost the same lineup. Their 3 and 4 hole hitters missed half the season, their ace missed a bunch of time, their bullpen has been decimated, and hell even their bench is injured with Nix, Galvis (bench now), Schneider, etc.

I give them a pass. Keep the team intact, go again next year. If next year fails, fire sale.

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07-03-2012, 10:54 AM
  #971
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The problem is you can't really do this at this point. It may be what seems best for the team, but it may not really be the case if they don't get back players that pan out. Amaro is in a very difficult position. If you go fire sale, and get rid of everyone, what do you do for the next couple years?

I don't think you can go fire sale, or stand pat. You have to go somewhere in between. The Phils have the most popular team in the city, and their ability to sign, trade for, and extend players has stemmed from their fan support. If they ruin that by fielding the Nationals of the past 5 years, they may not get the TV contract they should, and that may set them back even further.

With the Phillies in the position they're currently in, you can't just off everyone at once. You have to try to transition into your next run, instead of crashing to Earth, and then shooting back up in 4 or 5 years.
Reading over my post again, I definitely wasn't clear. I didn't mean to trade everybody I listed, just to put them all in play and deal the ones who'd return the most value. I don't want to nuke the team completely, just partially.

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07-03-2012, 11:02 AM
  #972
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Well, place me in the column of those who believe this season deserves a mulligan considering their injuries.

They were 1st in the majors last year with almost the same lineup. Their 3 and 4 hole hitters missed half the season, their ace missed a bunch of time, their bullpen has been decimated, and hell even their bench is injured with Nix, Galvis (bench now), Schneider, etc.

I give them a pass. Keep the team intact, go again next year. If next year fails, fire sale.
Next year everyone's going to be a year older and, regardless of injuries (which increase in likelihood with age), probably continuing their respective declines. If you think this season is bad, just wait until next season if they bring back a similar roster. Such a scenario will only serve to slash trade values further and render the future even more bleak. The Phillies have to strike preemptively rather than reactively and nip this thing in the bud before it devolves into a full-blown catastrophe that cannot be remedied.

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07-03-2012, 11:54 AM
  #973
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Next year everyone's going to be a year older and, regardless of injuries (which increase in likelihood with age), probably continuing their respective declines. If you think this season is bad, just wait until next season if they bring back a similar roster. Such a scenario will only serve to slash trade values further and render the future even more bleak. The Phillies have to strike preemptively rather than reactively and nip this thing in the bud before it devolves into a full-blown catastrophe that cannot be remedied.
I disagree about next year, and I'll go through the lineup and my thoughts.

1B - Howard - Freak injury, dude has been very durable throughout his tenure. Don't expect a repeat injury.
2B - Utley - FINALLY seems to have his injury in check. They've been treating it wrong all along, everything I've found says he could easily repeat pre 2008 production now that he has his core strength back.
C - Chooch - Statistically had his best year, but one person I am worried about declining.
SS - Rollins - Started out ice cold and has really picked it up of late. Still an above average fielder.
3B - Polanco - He'll be gone next year, they may have be able to teach Galvis that spot since he's a defensive freak. Polly's still great in the field, but his hitting has been on a decline since his injury last year.
LF - I see them platooning Nix and Pierre next year, or trying to find a replacement.
CF - Victorino - Probably gone, his hitting has declined dramatically but his fielding is still good.
RF - Pence - He's fine when he's in the 5 hole, had too much pressure this year. Fielding is alright, not Werth-esque but not Brown-esque, either.

Regarding pitching, still have a dominant staff if we resign Hamels. We have an elite closer. When Stutes comes back the bullpen will be in better shape, but we do need to upgrade the pen, for sure. Worley is an excellent 4th starter...hate seeing Kendrick in the 5 hole. Is Blanton signed through next year? He's ok as a 5th.

All in all the only real ?? for me is the outfield aside from Pence. Being super realistic here, this was a freak year. We had a freakin' Hall of Fame ballot on the DL for a big chunk of the year.

I give this core a mulligan, because this year was an anomaly, not the norm. You don't just drop from best to worst due to people advancing a year, you drop from having 1/3 of your lineup dead for half the year. Take out the 3 and 4 on any team, and throw the ace in too, and they will suck.

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07-03-2012, 12:57 PM
  #974
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I disagree about next year, and I'll go through the lineup and my thoughts.

1B - Howard - Freak injury, dude has been very durable throughout his tenure. Don't expect a repeat injury.
2B - Utley - FINALLY seems to have his injury in check. They've been treating it wrong all along, everything I've found says he could easily repeat pre 2008 production now that he has his core strength back.
C - Chooch - Statistically had his best year, but one person I am worried about declining.
SS - Rollins - Started out ice cold and has really picked it up of late. Still an above average fielder.
3B - Polanco - He'll be gone next year, they may have be able to teach Galvis that spot since he's a defensive freak. Polly's still great in the field, but his hitting has been on a decline since his injury last year.
LF - I see them platooning Nix and Pierre next year, or trying to find a replacement.
CF - Victorino - Probably gone, his hitting has declined dramatically but his fielding is still good.
RF - Pence - He's fine when he's in the 5 hole, had too much pressure this year. Fielding is alright, not Werth-esque but not Brown-esque, either.

Regarding pitching, still have a dominant staff if we resign Hamels. We have an elite closer. When Stutes comes back the bullpen will be in better shape, but we do need to upgrade the pen, for sure. Worley is an excellent 4th starter...hate seeing Kendrick in the 5 hole. Is Blanton signed through next year? He's ok as a 5th.

All in all the only real ?? for me is the outfield aside from Pence. Being super realistic here, this was a freak year. We had a freakin' Hall of Fame ballot on the DL for a big chunk of the year.

I give this core a mulligan, because this year was an anomaly, not the norm. You don't just drop from best to worst due to people advancing a year, you drop from having 1/3 of your lineup dead for half the year. Take out the 3 and 4 on any team, and throw the ace in too, and they will suck.
Sorry, just not feeling it. And I've been feeling this way since September. Hell, I wasn't even surprised the Cardinals beat us -- I was scared ****less going into that series. I understand why people want to hold onto this era with a death grip and aren't ready to confront the depressing reality that it's no longer 2007-2011. It ****ing sucks. That said, the Phillies are at a pivotal crossroads right now, and what they do at the trade deadline will likely determine the fate of the franchise for at least the next five years. The rest of the division is passing us by, but everyone is loath to acknowledge it, especially the top decision-makers.

I'll do the same thing you did...

1B - Howard - Freak injury or not, tearing the Achilles tendon is really serious, especially for guy as big as Howard. He's also been on the decline for a few years now and players of his ilk don't typically age gracefully. It's an ominous combination.
2B - Utley - I hope everything you said proves to be true, but he can no longer be counted on to play everyday. Oh, and his knees are still degenerating, regardless of treatment.
C - Chooch - Will almost certainly regress to the mean offensively next season, if not by the end of this one. His physique is, erm, girthy, and the demands of the catcher position are always an issue. A career year at age 33? Can't help but think this is a one-year fluke.
SS - Rollins - He is what he is, especially at this stage of his career. When he's hot, he's scorching hot. When he's cold, he's ice cold. It can be infuriating to watch him play, especially when he's on one of his pop-up binges. Defensive range has diminished, but he's still one of the best in the business at the position.
3B - Need a legit player at the hot corner... preferably someone who can hit for power.
LF - A Nix/Pierre platoon gets a giant whatever from me.
CF - Victorino will be gone. If nothing else, try Domonic Brown here. He was said to be enjoying playing CF in AAA before his most recent injury.
RF - Pence - I'm pretty ambivalent about Pence. He's a good player who gives 110%, but he's prone to incomprehensible brain farts in the field and terrible at bats in key situations. I'd rather use him as a trade chip to return two to three prospects with high ceilings.

As for the starting pitching... I think our staff is overrated, honestly. As Halladay and Lee age, their velocities will continue to decrease. If they don't have pinpoint control, they're going to get shelled because they're usually around the plate. Doc didn't look right even before going on the DL, and Lee has been bad since coming off his DL stint. I'd love to re-sign Hamels, but he's THE asset that could be used to replenish our depleted farm system and return a major league-ready stud prospect at a position of need.

Bullpen: It's a ****ing disaster, but bullpen performance is prone to fluctuation from year to year. I still don't know what Ruben was thinking releasing Jason Grilli in July of last season. He had a sub-2 ERA in the minors at the time and touches 95+ on the gun. Now he's an important part of a thriving Pirates bullpen. Throwing that $50 million at Papelbon, no matter how well he's performed, instead of spreading it around to bolster the rest of the bullpen (or other positions) remains a myopic and mystifying decision. The allocation of resources by RAJ and friends has been nothing short of silly and stupid, and the Papelbon deal highlights that.

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07-03-2012, 01:10 PM
  #975
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I can't really argue with anything you said, we're both seeing things the same way, just reaching different conclusions haha. I'm an eternal optimist, unfortunately.

I will say this. I agree with Howard's decline, he really needs to learn how to hit for contact better and avoid the shift (if humanly possible). BUT, this lineup is a lot scarier with him in it, and it makes everyone around him more effective. Look at Pence with and without him...big difference. Same with Werth. Plus 100+ RBIs can't hurt, and we need someone with raw power.

The only thing we disagree on is with Chase. I'm going to post here again the article I read that completely changed my outlook on the situation, but long story short, it's not chronic and isn't degenerative in the light of it WILL get worse, it's 100% fixable. It's just a weird condition where rest does nothing; you need to attack it head on with stretching and strengthening routines. Chase himself has said after this, they fell better than they have in like 4 years.

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/...eys-knees.html

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