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Free Agent Sit and Think Things Through Thoroughly (Matt Carle signed with Tampa Bay)

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07-03-2012, 02:20 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
By the end of the year, they scored 11 goals in 5 games vs the Devils...
I'm pretty sure an 82 game season and a 6 game playoff series is a better sample size to draw from than a 5 game series against a team that was 2 wins away from the Stanley Cup.

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07-03-2012, 02:34 PM
  #177
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I'm pretty sure an 82 game season and a 6 game playoff series is a better sample size to draw from than a 5 game series against a team that was 2 wins away from the Stanley Cup.
The poster mentioned the offense "by the end of the year" with a non-involved JVR and an injured Jagr. It wasn't the same.

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07-03-2012, 02:35 PM
  #178
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Haha, I keep posting "Welcome to Philadelphia, Zach Parise!!!!" on Facebook and people keep falling for it. Haha.
Well can you blame people for falling for "unlikely" signings..especially after Leighton's...

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07-03-2012, 02:37 PM
  #179
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I'm thinking Parise is only waiting for NJ to somehow come up with more $. There's no way it takes this long to decide unless you're negotiating with someone.

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07-03-2012, 02:43 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
By the end of the year, they scored 11 goals in 5 games vs the Devils...
Which has little to do with anything I wrote, or do you think we're going to see no increase in production from Couturier, Schenn, or Voracek? (Not to mention a big part of that was Jagr being unable to do much of anything at that point in the season.)

If so, do we solve that by giving a 100 million dollar contract to a guy who, while a great player, deserves nothing close to that? Do we trade a guy like Voracek, who I'm personally very high on, for a guy who may only be limited upgrade in the end and throw in a great value contract in Read to boot? Do we bring back Jagr and pray he doesn't wear down like he did this year?

Frankly, I'm not thinking about things in terms of next season. I'm thinking of the season after that, and the one after that, and so on. If Holmgren plays this right we could be in excellent shape for the next five years. If he panics and makes bad moves in a misguided attempt to keep pace in a futile arms race, then maybe the next five years won't be so hot.

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07-03-2012, 02:47 PM
  #181
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Which has little to do with anything I wrote, or do you think we're going to see no increase in production from Couturier, Schenn, or Voracek? (Not to mention a big part of that was Jagr being unable to do much of anything at that point in the season.)

If so, do we solve that by giving a 100 million dollar contract to a guy who, while a great player, deserves nothing close to that? Do we trade a guy like Voracek, who I'm personally very high on, for a guy who may only be limited upgrade in the end and throw in a great value contract in Read to boot? Do we bring back Jagr and pray he doesn't wear down like he did this year?

Frankly, I'm not thinking about things in terms of next season. I'm thinking of the season after that, and the one after that, and so on. If Holmgren plays this right we could be in excellent shape for the next five years. If he panics and makes bad moves in a misguided attempt to keep pace in a futile arms race, then maybe the next five years won't be so hot.
I agree with you, but last years success has raised expectations.

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07-03-2012, 02:53 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by mja View Post

Frankly, I'm not thinking about things in terms of next season. I'm thinking of the season after that, and the one after that, and so on. If Holmgren plays this right we could be in excellent shape for the next five years. If he panics and makes bad moves in a misguided attempt to keep pace in a futile arms race, then maybe the next five years won't be so hot.
I think Holmgren is like a bidder on Ebay who gets caught up in the moment of wanting to win the bid so bad he loses sight of the long term effect and the real value of the player. I would love to have Parise and/or Suter, but are they really worth what they will get? Will they put us over the top? As I have said in other posts, I am more of a fan of depth than super star lines. I would rather have 2 or three solid players with the money that one superstar would get.

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07-03-2012, 02:55 PM
  #183
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you are still ignoring the fact the this team couldnt beat the rangers, bruins last season, or the devils in the playoffs, maybe pittburgh will get better too, why are looking at last year? this team had jagr which make this team better overall, you cant just plug in rookies and aspect to be superstars, that's the delusion mentally which can set this team back then forward,

clarke did that with richards and carter in 06-07, and it backfired, it just seems like people are obbessed with young players rather than try to upgrade and make the team better because you think the young guys will be super stars after one season, that's just ridiculous and stupid, you cant just look at this team what about the other teams? they could have a better gameplan to stop these young players and without a vet, it's going to be a disaster.
lolwut?

We had the Rags beat multiple times last year until both goalies flopped.

We beat the Baby Bears while we were healthy and had extremely close games with them throughout the rest of the year except for a single game where we had like 5-6 starters out.

We got bounced by a team who took advantage by our lack of D and terrible netminder....plus Roo was gone a game.

None of that exactly screams to me that it was the forwards fault.

The '06/'07 disaster wasn't solely because of expecting too much from young players. It was a compound of factors like losing the majority of our vets, the few vets left were constantly hurt (Foresberg), zero goaltending and then finally we expected too much from the young guns.

Clearly after losing Primeau, Johnsson and Desjardin we needed a rebuild and that it would be a tough year.

You speak like the common mentality that is Philadelphia management. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Why not actually keep our prospects and raise them to be the stars of tomorrow?

Instead we either trade them or picks (Versteeg) for guys that nearing the end of their career (Pronger).

We lost a considerable amount of age last year and played like a veteran team. I see zero reason for trading away the youth unless we are trying to improve our weak spots....and that's not at the forward position.

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07-03-2012, 02:57 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I think Holmgren is like a bidder on Ebay who gets caught up in the moment of wanting to win the bid so bad he loses sight of the long term effect and the real value of the player. I would love to have Parise and/or Suter, but are they really worth what they will get? Will they put us over the top? As I have said in other posts, I am more of a fan of depth than super star lines. I would rather have 2 or three solid players with the money that one superstar would get.
I think you seriously underestimate the intelligence and skill Holmgren has. Decision makers don't earn their positions because they are stupid gamblers...

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07-03-2012, 03:00 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
lolwut?

We had the Rags beat multiple times last year until both goalies flopped.

We beat the Baby Bears while we were healthy and had extremely close games with them throughout the rest of the year except for a single game where we had like 5-6 starters out.

We got bounced by a team who took advantage by our lack of D and terrible netminder....plus Roo was gone a game.

None of that exactly screams to me that it was the forwards fault.

The '06/'07 disaster wasn't solely because of expecting too much from young players. It was a compound of factors like losing the majority of our vets, the few vets left were constantly hurt (Foresberg), zero goaltending and then finally we expected too much from the young guns.

Clearly after losing Primeau, Johnsson and Desjardin we needed a rebuild and that it would be a tough year.

You speak like the common mentality that is Philadelphia management. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Why not actually keep our prospects and raise them to be the stars of tomorrow?

Instead we either trade them or picks (Versteeg) for guys that nearing the end of their career (Pronger).

We lost a considerable amount of age last year and played like a veteran team. I see zero reason for trading away the youth unless we are trying to improve our weak spots....and that's not at the forward position.
Amen brother. I look at teams like LA and Nashville who kept their players together and then used their picks/players to fill in needs at the trade dealine. This is the model I prefer. I am not a fan of the go for the home-run or strike out approach every off season.

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07-03-2012, 03:03 PM
  #186
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Give Semin a 3 or 4 year deal. His defense is no worse than Jagr's. Then sign Doan, and make a trade for Yandle. Let Carle walk, Schenn takes his place.

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07-03-2012, 03:07 PM
  #187
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Redwings offer to Suter is 90 million for 13 years.

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07-03-2012, 03:10 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
I think you seriously underestimate the intelligence and skill Holmgren has. Decision makers don't earn their positions because they are stupid gamblers...
I think it is a a safe motto for gamblers to quit while they're ahead. I think the moves Holmgren did last summer worked out well; he should be content. We all know that cap inflexibility is bad. Yet every year Holmgren spends to the max, forcing him to make trades with bad return (Gagne, Versteeg) JUST to clear room. For once I would like to see the team go into the season with 10 million to spare to allow for trades to address the team's needs during the season. It's just the way I'd like to see the team managed.

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07-03-2012, 03:14 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
lolwut?

We had the Rags beat multiple times last year until both goalies flopped.

We beat the Baby Bears while we were healthy and had extremely close games with them throughout the rest of the year except for a single game where we had like 5-6 starters out.

We got bounced by a team who took advantage by our lack of D and terrible netminder....plus Roo was gone a game.

None of that exactly screams to me that it was the forwards fault.

The '06/'07 disaster wasn't solely because of expecting too much from young players. It was a compound of factors like losing the majority of our vets, the few vets left were constantly hurt (Foresberg), zero goaltending and then finally we expected too much from the young guns.

Clearly after losing Primeau, Johnsson and Desjardin we needed a rebuild and that it would be a tough year.

You speak like the common mentality that is Philadelphia management. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Why not actually keep our prospects and raise them to be the stars of tomorrow?

Instead we either trade them or picks (Versteeg) for guys that nearing the end of their career (Pronger).

We lost a considerable amount of age last year and played like a veteran team. I see zero reason for trading away the youth unless we are trying to improve our weak spots....and that's not at the forward position.
Precisely, however, were obviously not overly strong on the wing. This was painfully evident every time we played the rangers, bruins or really any team that plays a high pressure checking system. We can't compete. Hell we saw this PLAINLY when we played the devils in the playoffs. Hartnell is our #1 winger. Hartnell had a great season last year, but there's something wrong with that statement. It's unreasonable to expect him to repeat what he did last season, esepecially with Jagr gone from that line. Right now, our wing depth chart looks like this.

Hartnell
Voracek
Simmonds
Wellwood
Rinaldo

This isn't taking into consideration players we have playing out of their natural position. Matt Read is a natural center. If we move briere to the wing, where he's historically been much less effective offensively, that's 2 forwards in the top 6 or 9 playing out of position, not to mention that schenn would likely be moved to the wing as well if another winger isn't signed or acquired.

If we trade voracek, read and a 1st for Ryan, he instantly becomes your #1 winger, and instead you'd see

Ryan
Hartnell
Simmonds
Wellwood
Rinaldo

We would still have the cap space to sign another wing, such as doan or even Semin if we wanted to take the risk. Our Offense then becomes much more balanced.

Ryan-Giroux-Semin
Hartnell-Schenn-Briere
Simmonds-Couturier-Wellwood
Rinaldo/Sestito-Holmstrom-Talbot

You then have just 1 forward in the top 9 playing out of position. (I don't count Wellwood who's naturally a left wing, nor do I could talbot who IMO is actually more effective at the wing).

Just my opinion. I believe in a more balanced attack than loading up at one position and calling yourselves "deep".

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07-03-2012, 03:15 PM
  #190
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Redwings offer to Suter is 90 million for 13 years.
I'd go as high as 95 over 13, but no more than that.

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07-03-2012, 03:17 PM
  #191
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I'd go as high as 95 over 13, but no more than that.
Agreed.

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07-03-2012, 03:19 PM
  #192
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I'd go as high as 95 over 13, but no more than that.
Well, we know the Flyers did $100 million+ over 13 years, so Suter ought to cut a check to Flyers Wives Fight for Lives.

What are you going to do? We know the Flyers submitted the biggest offer--and apparently it was $20 million higher than Detroit's initial proposal ($80 million). If he doesn't want to play here, he doesn't want to play here.

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07-03-2012, 03:21 PM
  #193
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Considering we don't get Parise, which other options do we have? Doan will probably re-sign in PHX if everything goes well, he's just waiting for it to be official, Semin wouldn't fit under Lavy's system and many people claim he's an issue in the locker room. Nash and Ryan would cost us some important assets. Jagr is old.

We have 8 top 9 forwards : Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Briere, Schenn, Simmonds, Read and Couturier. We could also use Talbot, but our 4th line would become pretty weak. We have Wellwood, Rinaldo, Sestito, Z, Holmstrom, etc, but we can't make a line with them. We need to sign someone, even 2 forwards (a top 9 and a 4th liner). But who?

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07-03-2012, 03:25 PM
  #194
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Considering we don't get Parise, which other options do we have? Doan will probably re-sign in PHX if everything goes well, he's just waiting for it to be official, Semin wouldn't fit under Lavy's system and many people claim he's an issue in the locker room. Nash and Ryan would cost us some important assets. Jagr is old.

We have 8 top 9 forwards : Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Briere, Schenn, Simmonds, Read and Couturier. We could also use Talbot, but our 4th line would become pretty weak. We have Wellwood, Rinaldo, Sestito, Z, Holmstrom, etc, but we can't make a line with them. We need to sign someone, even 2 forwards (a top 9 and a 4th liner). But who?
They missed the boat on Hudler.

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07-03-2012, 03:27 PM
  #195
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Precisely, however, were obviously not overly strong on the wing. This was painfully evident every time we played the rangers, bruins or really any team that plays a high pressure checking system. We can't compete. Hell we saw this PLAINLY when we played the devils in the playoffs. Hartnell is our #1 winger. Hartnell had a great season last year, but there's something wrong with that statement. It's unreasonable to expect him to repeat what he did last season, esepecially with Jagr gone from that line. Right now, our wing depth chart looks like this.

Hartnell
Voracek
Simmonds
Wellwood
Rinaldo

This isn't taking into consideration players we have playing out of their natural position. Matt Read is a natural center. If we move briere to the wing, where he's historically been much less effective offensively, that's 2 forwards in the top 6 or 9 playing out of position, not to mention that schenn would likely be moved to the wing as well if another winger isn't signed or acquired.

If we trade voracek, read and a 1st for Ryan, he instantly becomes your #1 winger, and instead you'd see

Ryan
Hartnell
Simmonds
Wellwood
Rinaldo

We would still have the cap space to sign another wing, such as doan or even Semin if we wanted to take the risk. Our Offense then becomes much more balanced.

Ryan-Giroux-Semin
Hartnell-Schenn-Briere
Simmonds-Couturier-Wellwood
Rinaldo/Sestito-Holmstrom-Talbot

You then have just 1 forward in the top 9 playing out of position. (I don't count Wellwood who's naturally a left wing, nor do I could talbot who IMO is actually more effective at the wing).

Just my opinion. I believe in a more balanced attack than loading up at one position and calling yourselves "deep".
Interesting.

I just disagree that players playing out of their natural position was the reason we got pushed around by NJ.

It was NJ's forecheck on our weakened D that caused us to get pushed around.

GM1 we had plenty of breakout room and capitalized. The rest, NJ adjusted and were in the face of our D who couldn't make a breakout pass to save their lives.

When our forwards played aggressively (Pitt series and the fight filled Boston game in Philly), it really didn't matter who played where. We easily had one of the best sets of fwds in the NHL.

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07-03-2012, 03:33 PM
  #196
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They missed the boat on Hudler.
No thanks on paying Hudler 4 M a year.

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07-03-2012, 03:33 PM
  #197
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Considering we don't get Parise, which other options do we have? Doan will probably re-sign in PHX if everything goes well, he's just waiting for it to be official, Semin wouldn't fit under Lavy's system and many people claim he's an issue in the locker room. Nash and Ryan would cost us some important assets. Jagr is old.

We have 8 top 9 forwards : Giroux, Hartnell, Voracek, Briere, Schenn, Simmonds, Read and Couturier. We could also use Talbot, but our 4th line would become pretty weak. We have Wellwood, Rinaldo, Sestito, Z, Holmstrom, etc, but we can't make a line with them. We need to sign someone, even 2 forwards (a top 9 and a 4th liner). But who?
There's a few options, I think, depending on how they want the lines to be structure.

Doan @ 3 years would basically project to a line-up of:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Doan-Briere-Simmonds
Schenn-Couturier-Read

or

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Doan-Schenn-Briere
Simmonds-Couturier-Read

Doan and Danny would be up at the same time, then. That's probably the best alternative to bringing Jagr back for a year.

The other likely possibility, I think, is to sign a guy like Langenbrunner, Langkow, or Rolston, and sticking them on the 3rd line for a year, and revisiting our options again next offseason. You could do something similar with a lower-end-but-younger guy--Winnik, etc.

I was initially high on Semin, but I'm not sure it is worth the risk. Someone like Mueller is an interesting alternative--he will likely come cheap, and he might get hurt and never play a game. On the other hand, if he plays 60 games+, he'll likely put up more points than anyone else we are going to sign at this point (baring Parise) at a fraction of the cost.

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07-03-2012, 03:36 PM
  #198
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Interesting.

I just disagree that players playing out of their natural position was the reason we got pushed around by NJ.

It was NJ's forecheck on our weakened D that caused us to get pushed around.

GM1 we had plenty of breakout room and capitalized. The rest, NJ adjusted and were in the face of our D who couldn't make a breakout pass to save their lives.

When our forwards played aggressively (Pitt series and the fight filled Boston game in Philly), it really didn't matter who played where. We easily had one of the best sets of fwds in the NHL.
Im not disputing that our d was understaffed to whithold their forecheck, and our breakouts are not the issue.

The issue, and what I'm getting at, is if you go back and watch any game against the ranger or the bruins or in the devils series, you'll see us unable to sustain any offense in zone. Why? Because teams know that if they pressure us, especially down low, we get intimidated and aggravated because we're weak along the boards, both in the act of coming away with a puck, and giving eachother puck support, actively, down low. It's obvious. It was exploited to a T in the devils series and is something that needs to be addressed if we have hopes of getting by teams who can sufficiently apply this type of system.

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07-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #199
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There's a few options, I think, depending on how they want the lines to be structure.

Doan @3 years would basically create a defacto line-up of:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Doan-Briere-Simmonds
Schenn-Couturier-Read

or

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Doan-Schenn-Briere
Simmonds-Couturier-Read

Doan and Danny would be up at the same time, then. That's probably the best alternative to bringing Jagr back for a year.

The other likely possibility, I think, is to sign a guy like Langenbrunner, Langkow, or Rolston, and sticking them on the 3rd line for a year, and revisiting our options again next offseason. You could do something similar with a lower-end-but-younger guy--Winnik, etc.

I was initially high on Semin, but I'm not sure it is worth the risk. Someone like Mueller is an interesting alternative--he will likely come cheap, and he might get hurt and never play a game. On the other hand, if he plays 60 games+, he'll likely put up more points than anyone else we are going to sign at this point (baring Parise) at a fraction of the cost.
I seriously doubt Doan will play outside of Phoenix, unless the franchise announces something really bad on July 8. Would be a great fit, though.

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07-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #200
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I seriously doubt Doan will play outside of Phoenix, unless the franchise announces something really bad on July 8. Would be a great fit, though.
I'm not sure he would either, and I have concerns about him on a $5 x 3 contract--but I don't think there's any doubt that, among the UFAs remaining after Parise, he's the "safest" good choice.

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