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07-03-2012, 06:52 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Kirkpatrick View Post
I'd rather have one more year of Connolly at 4.5 than two more years of Jokinen at 4.5.
Yeah, so Burke ****ed up last year as opposed to this year.
That`s how bad things have gotten with Burke.
Leafs fans now applaud him for simply not making his usual mistakes.
Our team isn`t any better... but at least Burke didn`t **** up our future again.
GO BURKE!!!!

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07-03-2012, 06:53 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Like I wrote, both players are meh...but Ollie deal is better than Connolly.
Maybe you disagree.


All you had to do was read the article before posting, but you opted not to do so and made a silly post.

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07-03-2012, 06:57 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Yeah, so Burke ****ed up last year as opposed to this year.
That`s how bad things have gotten with Burke.
Leafs fans now applaud him for simply not making his usual mistakes.
Our team isn`t any better... but at least Burke didn`t **** up our future again.
GO BURKE!!!!
The thing is, it's 2012. I appreciate the GM making patient decisions on July 1, 2012.

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07-03-2012, 07:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TorMapleJays View Post
bb IS DOING A FINE JOB.

If you cant see how this team is comming together I suggest you start following the team then.

Rielly, Nunner, and Percy are looking awesome at the d camp. Colborne was the AHL point leader before his call up and injury. Kadri was a monster in the Play offs last year (he was also a PLUS player on a minus team) Frandson is going to be a steal this year. The team is developing the proper way.

For a team that fired Pat quinn during multiple 90 plus point seasons, Burke has had a team as bad as the Harold Ballard era, and yeah we may bottom out next year and get a lottery pick, Nothing wrong with that. AT ALL.

But I dont really think the team will be that bad. In Burke I trust, I see where this team is heading and I am excitited to be a leaf fan in about 3 seasons. Burke should still be around because he deserves it.

Play offs or no play offs, he started off with a 7-2 offsuit,

hes now playing with pocket 10's
See... this is where leafs fans completely and utterly lack perspective.

Burke inherited a team that missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row. Then Burke followed that up by missing the playoffs 4 seasons in a row.

With all of that combined, our prospects and young players should be elite, ala Edmonton (a rebuild done correctly).

If the leafs had squeezed into a playoff position for the past 4 seasons, I would expect our prospects to look similar to what they currently are. Mediocre. You finish at a mediocre position in the standings, you by and large get mediocre prospects (of course there are rare exceptions, rather than rules, so don`t bother pointing that out).

But the leafs have finished bottom 10 four years in a row. A 2nd freaking overall pick, 5th, 7th, and 9th.
Yet only have mediocre prospects to show for it, considering where they`ve placed in the standings.
Of course our prospects are better now than when Burke took over. That`s not really saying much. WE`VE FINISHED BOTTOM 10 FOUR YEARS IN A ROW. OF COURSE OUR PROSPECTS WILL IMPROVE.

But it`s how much they`ve improved that is the question. If this team was GM`d by a donkey, and I mean literally the barn yard animal, our prospects would be about as mediocre as they are now.
Let alone our apparant upgrade of a donkey, the highest paid GM in league history, with the highest paid scouting department in league history, with the highest paid front office in league history.
Once all of that is added into the equation, Burke`s reign of terror starts to look flat out humiliating.

If the plan was to finish bottom 10 four years in a row, why not take the ****ing Edmonton approach and have a flat out elite young team going into the future as opposed to the mediocre mess Burke has assembled.

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07-03-2012, 07:05 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkpatrick View Post
I'd rather have one more year of Connolly at 4.5 than two more years of Jokinen at 4.5.
Me too although I think Connolly is going to have a decent run this year.

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07-03-2012, 07:07 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kirkpatrick View Post
The thing is, it's 2012. I appreciate the GM making patient decisions on July 1, 2012.
That`s my point.
Burke has done such a pathetic job in the past, that by literally doing NOTHING on July 1 2012, most leafs fans are ecstatic.
Hey, at least he didn`t **** things up like he usually does.
GO BURKE!!!!

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07-03-2012, 07:10 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
That`s my point.
Burke has done such a pathetic job in the past, that by literally doing NOTHING on July 1 2012, most leafs fans are ecstatic.
Hey, at least he didn`t **** things up like he usually does.
GO BURKE!!!!
Taking or leaving Jay "Literally Nothing" McClement as you wish, what would you have preferred happen on July 1?

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07-03-2012, 07:17 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kirkpatrick View Post
Taking or leaving Jay "Literally Nothing" McClement as you wish, what would you have preferred happen on July 1?
Nothing.
I, and you might want to bookmark this, am happy with what Burke did.
My point is, most hockey fans are happy with their GM when he does something GREAT.
But Burke`s been so ridiculously bad with the leafs, that us fans are happy at the simple fact that he did NOTHING. That he didn`t **** things up like he usually does.

So I say, without my usual hints of sarcasm, GO BURKE!!!
Thank you for not ****ing things up. At least for one day. In fact, please, don`t even bother showing up to your job anymore.
If only there was a pride parade every day.
It would help our organization out immensely.

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07-03-2012, 07:18 PM
  #34
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Who's bashed him for passing on Jokinen?

Talk about a strawman.

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07-03-2012, 07:18 PM
  #35
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sometimes in gang warfare,you just got to sit back and watch the other gangs beat the crap out of each other..

Toronto really couldnt improve untill they get rid of these players next year.

what is it, 30 mil off the books next year or something.

Gotta make room for the kids. Like I said,I like what hes been doing, Im sure its not an easy job trying to turn pylons into hockey players

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07-03-2012, 07:23 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TorMapleJays View Post
sometimes in gang warfare,you just got to sit back and watch the other gangs beat the crap out of each other..

Toronto really couldnt improve untill they get rid of these players next year.

what is it, 30 mil off the books next year or something.

Gotta make room for the kids. Like I said,I like what hes been doing, Im sure its not an easy job trying to turn pylons into hockey players
Honest question...
If you were a GM and just took over a team that had no hockey players... just `pylons`...

would one of your first decisions be trading away your next two 1st round picks...

I mean, being that the team was full of `pylons`as you say, I would think that the team would finish at least bottom 10 two years in a row.

It doesn`t take someone having a Harvard degree to see that it would be a pretty stupid decision.

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07-03-2012, 07:26 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post


All you had to do was read the article before posting, but you opted not to do so and made a silly post.
I'm not sure why you feel the article went unread, but if that is how you feel - than that is how you feel.

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07-03-2012, 07:26 PM
  #38
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a potential 40 goal scorer at 21.

two first rounders seems fair

besides we got some of that back in the Colborne trade.

Turned a 2nd into Liles, and Percy is looking pretty good at d camp,

Yeah they got Tyler, Yeah he would have been good in toronto,

no one to play with, but good.

But no one predicted the leafs to fail like that.

No one.

One trade i dont do if im a gm. Raycroft for Rask.

Maybe Camallerri for Aki Berg

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07-03-2012, 07:29 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TorMapleJays View Post
a potential 40 goal scorer at 21.

two first rounders seems fair

besides we got some of that back in the Colborne trade.

Turned a 2nd into Liles, and Percy is looking pretty good at d camp,

Yeah they got Tyler, Yeah he would have been good in toronto,

no one to play with, but good.

But no one predicted the leafs to fail like that.

No one.

One trade i dont do if im a gm. Raycroft for Rask.

Maybe Camallerri for Aki Berg
No one predicted the leafs to fail like that, eh...

Didn`t you yourself just say that Burke inherited a team full of pylons...

I`m pretty sure you did.

So you expected a team full of `pylons, not hockey players` to play hockey well.

Wow.

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07-03-2012, 07:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Honest question...
If you were a GM and just took over a team that had no hockey players... just `pylons`...

would one of your first decisions be trading away your next two 1st round picks...

I mean, being that the team was full of `pylons`as you say, I would think that the team would finish at least bottom 10 two years in a row.

It doesn`t take someone having a Harvard degree to see that it would be a pretty stupid decision.
If at the time of the deal, the chances of your picks being anything other than more of the same, you contemplate adding the one elite player to your team.

The problem with the trade wasn't the initial vision but crapping out on the dice roll long after the fact.
all things considering, we wouldn't be much better off.

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07-03-2012, 07:34 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
If at the time of the deal, the chances of your picks being anything other than more of the same, you contemplate adding the one elite player to your team.

The problem with the trade wasn't the initial vision but crapping out on the dice roll long after the fact.
all things considering, we wouldn't be much better off.
One elite player, already about as good at hockey as Kessel, 4 years younger. A star (arguably elite) defenseman. And a decent 32nd overall pick (a measly 2 picks away from being yet another 1st rounder).

Given the situation Boston was in, they probably would have traded Kessel for a 5th overall, straight up. And I mean that. Nevermind a 2nd, 9th, and 32nd. A dramatic overpayment at a level that borders on supernatural.

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07-03-2012, 07:35 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
No one predicted the leafs to fail like that, eh...

Didn`t you yourself just say that Burke inherited a team full of pylons...

I`m pretty sure you did.

So you expected a team full of `pylons, not hockey players` to play hockey well.

Wow.
at the time of the deal.

i thought that would get us our ticket to the dance.

Kessel breaks the play off slump.

No one expects to finish in first, no one.

Plylons.. yes..

We got alot of deals for next to nothing.

so.. Yes

that being said if Burke could have gotten 5 first round picks last year.

where are they??

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07-03-2012, 07:38 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
One elite player, already about as good at hockey as Kessel, 4 years younger. A star (arguably elite) defenseman. And a decent 32nd overall pick (a measly 2 picks away from being yet another 1st rounder).

Given the situation Boston was in, they probably would have traded Kessel for a 5th overall, straight up. And I mean that. Nevermind a 2nd, 9th, and 32nd. A dramatic overpayment at a level that borders on supernatural.
Two first and a second is expensive even compared to an offer sheet.
But A lotto pick and a top 10 pick and a second is terrible asset management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
No one predicted the leafs to fail like that, eh...

Didn`t you yourself just say that Burke inherited a team full of pylons...

I`m pretty sure you did.

So you expected a team full of `pylons, not hockey players` to play hockey well.

Wow.
The previous leaf team was just short of league average goaltending to be playoff worthy. In fact, that old team was better defensively (2way game), a bigger but older team that could check but didn't have the scoring punch of the current leafs.

Burke's created team is an exciting high scoring team, that is poor defensively and somewhat small but younger. Goaltending has improved from a Toskala horror show to a consitently underwhelming.

Like the previous team, the quickest fix was to get a league average goalie. Instead, Burke choose to tear down the entire team. After four years, the team is not too much ahead in the standings except they have a deeper prospect pool.

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07-03-2012, 07:39 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TorMapleJays View Post
at the time of the deal.

i thought that would get us our ticket to the dance.

Kessel breaks the play off slump.

No one expects to finish in first, no one.

Plylons.. yes..

We got alot of deals for next to nothing.

so.. Yes

that being said if Burke could have gotten 5 first round picks last year.

where are they??
Burke`s job, his specific job, is to assess his team and make decisions based on that assessment.

If he makes the incorrect assessment, and proceeds to mortgage the teams entire future in the process, that is the carbon copy definition of a GM ****ing up.
And that`s what Burke did!!!!!

And, in case you`ve all forgotten, we`re talking about the highest paid GM in the entire history of the sport.

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07-03-2012, 07:41 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
One elite player, already about as good at hockey as Kessel, 4 years younger. A star (arguably elite) defenseman. And a decent 32nd overall pick (a measly 2 picks away from being yet another 1st rounder).

Given the situation Boston was in, they probably would have traded Kessel for a 5th overall, straight up. And I mean that. Nevermind a 2nd, 9th, and 32nd. A dramatic overpayment at a level that borders on supernatural.
My point is that you can't make that specific argument at the time of the deal. In a gamble, your right decision is playing the odds. Doesn't mean you always win. All trades and signings are a gamble.

I concede that we busted but we still got value. We didn't trade for a scrub.

The only way to fairly evaluate a decision is to do so in the perspective the decision was made in.

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07-03-2012, 07:43 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
My point is that you can't make that specific argument at the time of the deal. In a gamble, your right decision is playing the odds. Doesn't mean you always win. All trades and signings are a gamble.

I concede that we busted but we still got value. We didn't trade for a scrub.

The only way to fairly evaluate a decision is to do so in the perspective the decision was made in.
Hindsight is the specific tool, the specific tool, used to assess if a GM has done a good job or not.

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07-03-2012, 07:46 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke`s job, his specific job, is to assess his team and make decisions based on that assessment.

If he makes the incorrect assessment, and proceeds to mortgage the teams entire future in the process, that is the carbon copy definition of a GM ****ing up.
And that`s what Burke did!!!!!

And, in case you`ve all forgotten, we`re talking about the highest paid GM in the entire history of the sport.
The one truth fans have trouble accepting is that people involved in sport aren't actually held to the standard of perfection.

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07-03-2012, 07:46 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Hindsight is the specific tool, the specific tool, used to assess if a GM has done a good job or not.
if i had that, i would play the lottery every week

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07-03-2012, 07:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Hindsight is the specific tool, the specific tool, used to assess if a GM has done a good job or not.
It is a fair question but I find people say Burke was unlucky with the Giguere trade or Komisarek signing (or in hindsight it was bad or didn't work out). And Burke was brilliant with the Lupul/Gardiner trade. But, how come he gets credit for the good trades/signings but its luck/hindsight for the bad trade/signings. I would rather measure Burke on the results and similarly.

Either he did well on Lupul and got the Giggy trade (or Komi/Lebda signing) wrong.
Or in hindsight he was lucky on Lupul trade and unlucky on the Giggy trade (or Komi/Lebda signing) .

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07-03-2012, 07:48 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
One elite player, already about as good at hockey as Kessel, 4 years younger. A star (arguably elite) defenseman. And a decent 32nd overall pick (a measly 2 picks away from being yet another 1st rounder).

Given the situation Boston was in, they probably would have traded Kessel for a 5th overall, straight up. And I mean that. Nevermind a 2nd, 9th, and 32nd. A dramatic overpayment at a level that borders on supernatural.
Buddy, this is all in hindsight. If every GM could make every decision in hindsight, they'd win every trade.

At the time of the Kessel trade it was risky, it was a big splash trade where Burke felt he picked up someone further along the development and would kick start a retool and possibly and us in the playoffs. I don't think anyone expected that pick to be the 2nd overall and for you to sit here and blast him for it is just ridiculous.

The reason I think Burke is doing a good job is because at the time of almost all of his signings/trades I think they're good moves. In hindsight Komisarek wasn't such a great pick up but we needed to get tougher on the blueline and that's exactly what Komisarek was. In hindsight the Connolly signing wasn't great, but we needed a center because going into the season with Bozak as #1 again was not a sexy option. Brad Richards was locked up by New York, Tim Connolly was the next best option and it was a short term deal - a stop gap.

All of that to say you're sitting here ripping apart everything Burke has done but you've got the major benefit of seeing everything in hindsight. There's not a single other GM out there who's available who could have done a better job than Burke, so let's just give the guy a break, admit he's made some mistakes, but admit he's also learnt from the mistakes he's made and he's taking things in the right direction.

One reason I really respect Burke is that I thought he would try to get the lowest price possible for Luongo but one way or another, he was coming here. Didn't matter, Burke would offer up the moon in the end if he had to. Why? Because if the Leafs don't make the playoffs next year, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion he'll be gone. However Burke has said that he won't give up young assets for Luongo just to get the Leafs into the playoffs knowing if he doesn't it will cost him his job. Every single move Burke has made for this team has been for the present AND for the future.

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