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Luongo XIX - The Return Is Not Phaneuf

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Old
07-04-2012, 12:05 AM
  #76
Ho Borvat
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
The 1st could/would be moved for a player.
So could Ashton/Kadri.

Im more getting at the point that If the pick ends up being 35th overall, its a lot different than if it ends up as 10th or 15th overall.

Its a lot of uncertainty for both sides of the trade.

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07-04-2012, 12:07 AM
  #77
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Shhhhh. Nobody will notice.

The damage is done, lol. But you could still edit your post in which you quoted me.

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07-04-2012, 12:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Since he's blocked you, and you still didn't understand his criticism, I will jump in here.

Show me where and when Luongo has asked for a trade. Find a link. You won't find one. It's speculation with nothing backing it up, that's this thread in a nut shell.
.
Didn't AV, in some radio interview say Lu asked to be traded?

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07-04-2012, 12:12 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Gonna play devil's advocate here and ask what else is Gillis going to say? That nobody is interested?

Gillis doesn't have any leverage. Once that news leaked that Luongo requested a trade his value plummeted, regardless of the denials from Gillis. No one will say, "Oh, Gillis just denied the rumors. Damn! There goes my leverage." It's out there, and once its out there you can't cover it back up.

Luongo has a NTC/NMC, does he not? If he gets the final say, the only teams in the mix are the same ones all along - Toronto, Florida.

The only thing holding this trade up is Gillis' refusal to accept the situation and take what he can get. To me his pride and self-envisioned reputation about being a savvy GM is stopping it from happening. I'm sure he envisions himself walking away from this laughing. But the longer he waits and makes unreasonable demands, the more the other teams are just gonna say screw dealing with this guy.

I highly doubt one of Florida or Toronto gives in first and this whole trade is becoming incredibly stale and will eventually be damaging to Vancouver as a team both internally and league wide reputation (As if it isn't low enough already).
What a bunch of nonsense.

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07-04-2012, 12:13 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ChillyPalmer View Post
Didn't AV, in some radio interview say Lu asked to be traded?
Very poorly translated, and misquoted. Vignault came out right away and corrected it. It was debunked by anyone listening to it that speaks french and read the translation.

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07-04-2012, 12:14 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hah. It's actually reality. But since you can't formulate an articulate argument I guess I'll chalk it up to You living in the fantasy. It's not about lying, we all know Gillis reigns King in that department. It's about the reality of the situation - Luongo Wants Out.

Nothing is going to change that. Luongo gets to choose where he wants to go. Gillis has no leverage. That's the reality.
Reality and Bias are too different things you know, and at this point it's just silly trolling by a bitter oilers fan.

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07-04-2012, 12:19 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Gonna play devil's advocate here and ask what else is Gillis going to say? That nobody is interested?

Gillis doesn't have any leverage. Once that news leaked that Luongo requested a trade his value plummeted, regardless of the denials from Gillis. No one will say, "Oh, Gillis just denied the rumors. Damn! There goes my leverage." It's out there, and once its out there you can't cover it back up.

Luongo has a NTC/NMC, does he not? If he gets the final say, the only teams in the mix are the same ones all along - Toronto, Florida.

The only thing holding this trade up is Gillis' refusal to accept the situation and take what he can get. To me his pride and self-envisioned reputation about being a savvy GM is stopping it from happening. I'm sure he envisions himself walking away from this laughing. But the longer he waits and makes unreasonable demands, the more the other teams are just gonna say screw dealing with this guy.

I highly doubt one of Florida or Toronto gives in first and this whole trade is becoming incredibly stale and will eventually be damaging to Vancouver as a team both internally and league wide reputation (As if it isn't low enough already).
I don't think there is anywhere near as much ego stroking involved in this process as you suggest.

Mike Gillis has an idea of what he and the Canucks management team feel is a fair return for Roberto Luongo. That value hasn't been met so far, so Luongo has not been traded.

If you look at his history of dealing, he is nothing if not patient. Look at the Mats Sundin signing. They arrived at a deal in principle in July, but Sundin didn't sign until December. All the while the fans and media were speculating and machinating over if and when the deal would get done. The David Booth deal seemed to come out of nowhere, then Gillis explains that when they acquired Chris Higgins the previous season at the deadline, they were actually trying to get Booth, but Talon offered Higgins. They conversation continued in the off season and resulted in a trade in October.

Gillis said on the radio the other day that HE is the obstacle to the trade - he hasn't seen a proposal that he is willing to pull the trigger on yet.

The Canucks have plenty of cap space and their only real hole right now is a 2nd line centre until Kesler is healthy and ready to play at 100%. Luongo and Schneider are good friends and get along great. A tandem arrangement is not out of the question. While the fans may be anxious, Gillis doesn't have to hurry to make this deal. Between now and the trade deadline, some starting goalie is going to either suck or get injured. There aren't any other goalies of Luongo's pedigree likely to come onto the market.

I also don't think that Brian Burke or Dale Talon have as much emotionally invested in this ordeal as the fans of the respective fan bases (including Vancouver fans) have. It's simple. Either team would love to have Luongo, but they are reluctant to create even bigger holes in their roster in order to acquire him. James Reimer and Jose Theodore are high risk options. Regardless of what has been publicly said, I don't think either GM has a great degree of confidence in going into the next season with Reimer or Theodore as starter. Toronto has a slightly higher risk, because they also don't have a veteran backup. That can be quickly remedied.

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Old
07-04-2012, 12:20 AM
  #83
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I wonder if the Flyers could join the dance?

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07-04-2012, 12:25 AM
  #84
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I wonder if the Flyers could join the dance?
No chance. Who wants bryzgalovs boat anchor of a contract?

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07-04-2012, 12:31 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hah. It's actually reality. But since you can't formulate an articulate argument I guess I'll chalk it up to You living in the fantasy. It's not about lying, we all know Gillis reigns King in that department. It's about the reality of the situation - Luongo Wants Out.

Nothing is going to change that. Luongo gets to choose where he wants to go. Gillis has no leverage. That's the reality.
I'd like to take a minute to discuss your post. If indeed Luongo wants out, do you understand how that would mean Gillis DOES have some leverage? Clearly we can't just trade him ANYWHERE, but if Luongo does indeed want out he is going to have to choose from the list of places that we decide. Otherwise, he wouldn't get out. See, that's the problem with your attempt to make this situation seem dire. Gillis would have no leverage if Luongo didn't want out and had a NTC. I hope this helps.

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07-04-2012, 12:32 AM
  #86
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No chance. Who wants bryzgalovs boat anchor of a contract?
The Oilers.

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07-04-2012, 12:35 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
The Oilers.
Bryz showed nothing to prove that his success in phoenix wasn't just a by-product of the coyotes system. Mike smiths play this year didn't help matters either.

If bryz played even mediocre this year, then I could see someone taking a flyer on him. But the oilers have dubnyk who's cheap and has upside. I don't see any reason for them to go after bryz.

Flyers better pray he figures it out and they can trade him in the future.

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07-04-2012, 12:39 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by supercilious View Post
Bryz showed nothing to prove that his success in phoenix wasn't just a by-product of the coyotes system. Mike smiths play this year didn't help matters either.

If bryz played even mediocre this year, then I could see someone taking a flyer on him. But the oilers have dubnyk who's cheap and has upside. I don't see any reason for them to go after bryz.

Flyers better pray he figures it out and they can trade him in the future.
I was just hoping.

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07-04-2012, 12:45 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by supercilious View Post
No chance. Who wants bryzgalovs boat anchor of a contract?
I'd take it, assuming we get some sweet add ins.

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Old
07-04-2012, 12:47 AM
  #90
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I disagree with you Craig about gillis having leverage if luongo has asked for a trade.

Soccer is a great example of this type of scenario. Soccer players frequently request trades and in their cases, they can refuse a contract from any new team that purchases them (thus essentially giving them an NTC)

Those players still get traded/sold because its more important to get the guy who doesn't want to be there out of town than it is to keep someone like that festering in the locker room
The canucks are contenders and go into each season as favourites for the cup. Sometimes addition by subtraction is the best option rather than possibly having a cancer in the room at such a delicate time in the teams history.

Not saying it'll be straight subtraction, but I think gillis will wait it out until the last possible minute and then take the best offer on the table from whoever because i dont see him keeping both goalies on to start the year.

Just my opinion Obvs

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07-04-2012, 12:54 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Rinzler View Post
I have no doubt that Vancouver should get this kind of return from Burke, but he just won't have any of it.

I think his recent interviews (especially the one today from the fan590) say all that needs to be said here. Burke will go into camp with Reimer Scrivens and will open with them if he has to. Unless Gillis drastically reduces his price, that's how it's going to stay.

I doubt the story is much different in Florida too. They have capable goaltending already and have their goalies locked up already. There has to be an incentive to make a deal (as in a steal).

Needless to say we're going to run out of Bond movies before Luongo is moved in my honest opinion. This one is going to go on all summer, someone is going to flinch and I know it's not going to be Burke and doubt Tallon has any reason to either.
Burke is the only one with real motive unless the Canucks sign an $8M free agent or make the move to acquire Nash (without involving Luongo).

The Canucks can go into next season with a Jennings Winning combination and $3-4M of cap space.

The Panthers have a goaltending situation they are comfortable with.

The Leafs have a goaltending situation they blame for collapsing and costing them a playoff birth last year. If the Leafs goaltending struggles again, knowing that Burke had the opportunity to get Luongo, Burke will be fired.

The Leafs are the ones with the worst downside.

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07-04-2012, 01:09 AM
  #92
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The Leafs have a goaltending situation they blame for collapsing and costing them a playoff birth last year. If the Leafs goaltending struggles again, knowing that Burke had the opportunity to get Luongo, Burke will be fired.

The Leafs are the ones with the worst downside.
Here we go again. The absurd theory that the Leafs have no choice but to sell the farm for Luongo.

Did anyone of importance in Leafs management actually single out the goaltenders as the sole reason for the Leafs not making the playoffs?

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07-04-2012, 01:22 AM
  #93
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Did anyone of importance in Leafs management actually single out the goaltenders as the sole reason for the Leafs not making the playoffs?
One would hope Burke wouldn't single out Reimer like that.

Burke did indicate that goaltending was a weakness for the team and he wished to address that.

Canucks fans are overstating the Leafs need for a goaltender.

A non elite goaltender doesn't make the Leafs into a playoff team - their roster has too many weaknesses.

A goalie like Luongo will in all likeliness get them into the playoffs.

The problem is if the price of acquiring Luongo is something that strengthens the Canucks (impact forward) will the remaining Leaf roster be good enough to advance?

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07-04-2012, 01:46 AM
  #94
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I'd take it, assuming we get some sweet add ins.
A chocolate milk and a pack of hockey cards.

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07-04-2012, 01:49 AM
  #95
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A chocolate milk and a pack of hockey cards.
I used to love Bannerman's hockey cards 'cause I thought he had a really cool mask.

That is all.

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07-04-2012, 01:55 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
One would hope Burke wouldn't single out Reimer like that.

Burke did indicate that goaltending was a weakness for the team and he wished to address that.

Canucks fans are overstating the Leafs need for a goaltender.

A non elite goaltender doesn't make the Leafs into a playoff team - their roster has too many weaknesses.

A goalie like Luongo will in all likeliness get them into the playoffs.

The problem is if the price of acquiring Luongo is something that strengthens the Canucks (impact forward) will the remaining Leaf roster be good enough to advance?
If Kulemin is the only roster player of significance that is apart of the return, thus we deal more in prospects. I would say most certainly yes. Personally, I am less concerned with an "impact forward" and would rather shore up our dwindling prospect pool. Kadri would be the ideal piece because we can immediately let him take up the reins for Kesler while he's out and see how that works.

If successful, then Kadri moves to the third line and gives Higgins and Hansen something to work with on an offensive front. Evidently, the question becomes are Kulemin and Kadri pieces Toronto is willing to let go?

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07-04-2012, 02:05 AM
  #97
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Every time I see a quantity for franchise player deal I get worried.

Luongo was traded for
Auld - promising goalie ---> career backup
Bertuzzi - 1st line powerforward --> severe regression to a 2/3rd liner
Allen - top 4 d-man with potential --> #4/5 on a contender

Phaneuf was traded for
Stajan - 55 point #2C --> overpaid #4C
Hagman - 2nd line W --> 4th liner
White - #3/4 d-man --> #4 d-man

Anytime a star player is traded for 2nd tier assets from a lesser hockey club the lesser assets usually regress.

I think it's because the lesser players (tweeners like Kulemin/MacArthur or "#1 goalies" like Auld) enjoy top 6 time and opportunities on a bad team. When they're relegated to a lesser role their production dips.

If I was Gillis I hold out til I can get 1 good player back.

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07-04-2012, 02:22 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Since he's blocked you, and you still didn't understand his criticism, I will jump in here.

Show me where and when Luongo has asked for a trade. Find a link. You won't find one. It's speculation with nothing backing it up, that's this thread in a nut shell.

Luongo has said he will do what's best for the team if he is asked. Accepting a trade for one. Playing as the games highest paid, most talented back up is another scenario. Accepting a job as a goalie coach could be another while we're at it.

There is nothing clear cut about this. We have a bunch of media meat puppets who decided some huge names in Parise, Semin and Suter in free agency wasn't big enough to speculate on, and since the Leafs, Canada's biggest hockey team in terms of revenue, need a goalie, and Vancouver, Canada's third biggest team in terms of revenue, has two, boom, news story.

Gillis your "king of lying" is actually in no position to need to lie. He never let's information leak, he's very good about that. That's why trades seem to come out of no where (Ballard, Booth, Higgins, Lapierre, Pahlsson, Hodgson) and why even signings seem to have some kind of mysterious randomness to them, Hamhuis and Garrison aside.

See, supporting an argument. Not claiming "Tambellini is king of the bottom feeders" and using that as a come back.
Luongo Demands Trade:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...134700505.html

AV Confirms Luongo Wants out:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...-of-vancouver/

Gillis Denies Demand (And throws Kesler under bus):
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...s-this-season/

Oh Look, Luongo "surprisingly" on the trading block:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...2247--nhl.html

But don't worry, Gillis Isn't in a rush:
http://www.canada.com/hockey/nhlnews...630/story.html

What part of this saga is confusing for you? Are you just refusing to believe what is staring you in the face? Luongo has demanded a trade.

Gillis is a smart man but a man who clearly has his own interests at heart. He is a former agent, after all. The Canucks are lucky that his interests are directly related to the interests of the team. Fancy that. But the guy knows if he lets this Luongo trade happen for anything less than what you Canuck fans are expecting, his future may very well be in jeopardy. Which is what it comes down to, really. Someone had stated before that General Managers generally don't care about what the team will look like once they're gone. With Mike Gillis it's quite apparent it rings true for him more so. He's a fiery cut throat businessman for sure. But I wonder how long until all the doors are slammed on his face because of his actions?

We could possibly be seeing it right now with Luongo. But I'm more inclined to think that he's just being incredibly stubborn to the point where it will hurt his team and reputation.


Last edited by smackdaddy: 07-04-2012 at 02:28 AM.
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07-04-2012, 02:27 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
25 posts per page; a minimum of 40 pages per thread. That is a grand estimate of 19,000+ posts discussing/arguing about Roberto Luongo.

So... buy or sell this reaches 30,000 before he's traded?
7,306 posts of haters hating
4,253 posts of Canucks fans asking too much for Luongo
3,985 posts of other fans low balling offers for Luongo
1,235 posts about other goalies
783 posts about the awesomeness of the particular thread title
402 posts about tweets
385 posts about Luongo being a choker
385 posts about Luongo making it within 1 game of the Stanley Cup
97 posts about the philosophical undertones of an online forum discussion
84 posts of mods giving warnings
30 posts Luongo's wife living in Florida
13 posts of other FA accidentally posted in here
7 posts about the riot
3 posts about Jay Feaster liking donuts (2 of which are mine)

32 posts legitimately discussing Roberto Luongo

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07-04-2012, 02:30 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by YogiCanucks View Post
7,306 posts of haters hating
4,253 posts of Canucks fans asking too much for Luongo
3,985 posts of other fans low balling offers for Luongo
1,235 posts about other goalies
783 posts about the awesomeness of the particular thread title
402 posts about tweets
385 posts about Luongo being a choker
385 posts about Luongo making it within 1 game of the Stanley Cup
97 posts about the philosophical undertones of an online forum discussion
84 posts of mods giving warnings
30 posts Luongo's wife living in Florida
13 posts of other FA accidentally posted in here
7 posts about the riot
3 posts about Jay Feaster liking donuts (2 of which are mine)

32 posts legitimately discussing Roberto Luongo
4 Oilers fans trolling
3 Bruins fans hating
2 Leafs fans raging
And a partridge in a pear tree...

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