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Old
07-04-2012, 06:12 PM
  #51
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I'd trade anyone on the roster not named Giroux for him. Even Schenn and Couturier in the same deal.

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07-04-2012, 06:21 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
What if it were 12 years, $100 million, with a front-load of like $12-13 million for a few seasons? Would Nashville match that?
They offered Suter 90 over 13 years--and were angry that they didn't have the chance to match Minnesota's 98/13 offer. I don't think they would blint at adding $1 million more a year for Weber, rather than losing him for $.50 on the dollar.

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07-04-2012, 07:29 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
LeBrun was just on TSN Radio in Toronto and said the following:

1) Poile and Nashville will go hard after Weber over the next few days and try to get him signed to a long-term deal.

2) He speculated that, if they can't get him signed long-term, the Predators would have no choice but to shop him for a "trade-of-the-year" type return.

3) He also said that an OS is unlikely, because Weber would realize that Nashville will match any offer. He suggested that, baring a long-term extension, the most likely outcome is that Weber signs his QO and Poile shops him.

Given all that, and given the Flyers natural interest in Weber, I thought it might make sense to start a thread for Weber-specific speculation, proposals, etc.

UPDATE: LeBrun's Column


http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-are-teammates
Suter leaving the way he did put Poile over a barrel. If Weber does not accept his offer his only option is to try to start a bidding war for his rights. I know this sucks but I think it would be in our best interest to give him a OS. I would rather give up four number ones than rip apart this team for him. Then maybe they can work out a deal. Look at the bluejackets. They are still trying to peddle off Nash. This should get interesting.

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07-04-2012, 07:32 PM
  #54
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I'll remain hopeful when it come to Weber for these reasons.

1. Flyers and Nashville have shown to be great trading partners.
2. We play in another conference. If a long term deal can't get done between Weber and Preds, they would look to trade his him and his rights to an East team. They don't have see another West team improve(ex-DET) and won't have to play against him as much.
3. We're always a contender and have shown to offer big $$$ at free agents.
4. One of the least traveling teams in the league.

I don't know, we shall see. It's exciting though since he's one of my favorite players

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07-04-2012, 07:34 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Suter leaving the way he did put Poile over a barrel. If Weber does not accept his offer his only option is to try to start a bidding war for his rights. I know this sucks but I think it would be in our best interest to give him a OS. I would rather give up four number ones than rip apart this team for him. Then maybe they can work out a deal. Look at the bluejackets. They are still trying to peddle off Nash. This should get interesting.
You're talking about a massive, 1-year offer sheet I assume?

Any long-term offer sheet gets matched. The 1-year deal is a major, major risk.

The other option, mentioned in several threads in the Trade Board, would be a 1-year 8.4 million OS (2 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd).

That would either get you Weber for the year (at a high cost, but no roster pieces) with the opportunity to negotiate an extension, or ensure he hits UFA next summer.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 07-04-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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07-04-2012, 07:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
To trade for Crosby Stamkos or doughty it cost schenn coots+. Not worth it. Ok. Put Stamkos on a line with giroux if you wind up with no talent behind that you lose. Period. And that's trading for the best player in the league. Id rather have a core of guys through out the line up that contribute all over the ice than have a few superstars. Especially one we can get for nothing if we wait. Who says weber doesn't decided to stay. It's not worth it. If the value is there its there. But trading schenn and coots is just dumb. Resign Voracek, fill holes through FA and make a run at weber next July should he be available. Or Enstrom. I'd rather see what Luke Schenn has and what Voracek can bring I Girouxs wing before I trade half the damn team for one of Ryan Nash or Weber. They aren't that badly needed yet. I'd like to see how the assets we got for 2 guys that just won a cup do before we ship em all off for 1 guy a year later.
If Nashville makes an honest attempt to try to trade Weber for a huge haul of young players, you're not getting a chance at him next offseason. Someone will ante up.

I'm on board with the Schenns and 1st offer.

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07-04-2012, 07:43 PM
  #57
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Weber is an absolute beast and one of if not the very best defensmen in the league. That being said, NO WAY I give up Schenn/Couturier without being 110% certain Weber would re-up with the Flyers. Without an extension being understood as part of the deal,it's a no go.

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07-04-2012, 07:45 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MillerTime2181 View Post
Weber is an absolute beast and one of if not the very best defensmen in the league. That being said, NO WAY I give up Schenn/Couturier without being 110% certain Weber would re-up with the Flyers. Without an extension being understood as part of the deal,it's a no go.
I think that's a given, to be honest.

EDIT: What I mean is that I can't imagine any poster here is willing to give up any of the packages discussed without serious assurances about him staying long-term.

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07-04-2012, 09:56 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Nashville controls his rights, so I'm not sure I follow.

Do you mean negotiate an offer sheet?

The Flyers could send Weber an absurd 12 year, $120 million contract, and Nashville, at this point, would probably still match it.

The only deal Nashville wouldn't match would be something like 1 year, $13 million--which is insanely stupid for the Flyers to do, since they would forfeit 4 first round picks for one (guaranteed) year of service.

EDIT: Sounds like something is wrong or mischaracterized on the website. Weber is RFA, not UFA.

You know what... part of me is saying "**** it, just go for it"...



Obviously we might have to do some questionable things before attempting this path ("Hey Shea, even though we can only offer you a one-year max contract right now, how would you feel about being a Philadelphia Flyer for a really long time?"... along with suggestive winking and nudging).


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 07-04-2012 at 10:06 PM.
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Old
07-05-2012, 06:03 AM
  #60
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It wont happen. Ever.

No team is ever going to risk 4 first round draft picks for a years service.

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07-05-2012, 06:35 AM
  #61
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Offer sheets are a good way to get people to stop doing business with you. I'd much prefer he just made the usual sign and trade, hockey deal.

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07-05-2012, 06:44 AM
  #62
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No need to offer sheet. One of two things will happen within a couple of weeks:
1. Shea Weber signs a 12 year deal worth 100 million in Nashville
2. Shea Weber is traded for a huge return and signs somewhere else for 100 million

- Nashville is NOT going to let him walk like Hamhuis and Suter did
- Weber is NOT going to want to see what restrictions the new CBA puts in. He either gets paid now or those contracts may be unavailable as of next season.

I think this deal gets done and the Flyers have the pieces to make it happen

My deal: Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Cousins, first in 2013 for Shea Weber.

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07-05-2012, 06:56 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think that's a given, to be honest.

EDIT: What I mean is that I can't imagine any poster here is willing to give up any of the packages discussed without serious assurances about him staying long-term.
There in lies the problem. Nashville is not going to let any team negotiate with Weber first because it will limit the teams who will bid for him. The trade will be a leap of faith. I think the Schenns and a first would get it done but I worry about his desire to sign here, as should the Flyers. Hamhuis, Bouwmeester, and Suter did not want to sign here under any amount of money. Hamhuis and Bouwmeester wanted to play closer to home in western Canada (Weber's home area) and Suter didn't want to play under the pressure of an eastern market. Who's to say Weber doesn't already have a preconceived notion of where he wants to finish his career?

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07-05-2012, 07:25 AM
  #64
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I would offer something like this

Jake Voracek
Coburn
1st(2013)
1st(2014)
Gus

for

Weber

Then take it from there. The one thing that scares me is they might want a young stud dman prospect back in any deal for him, which we don't have. The positive thing also though is that they have a ton of prospects with potential that play defense. A deal around a forward could work. Now we just have to play the waiting game to see if he wants to sign there.

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07-05-2012, 08:14 AM
  #65
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
I would offer something like this

Jake Voracek
Coburn
1st(2013)
1st(2014)
Gus

for

Weber
This has been mentioned a bunch of times, but I have concerns about giving up Coburn + + + in a bigger package for Weber. Obviously, it gets us our #1D and provides a real shot from the point on the PP, but it absolutely kills our depth on the wing. (Simmonds / Read as top-line RW? Eh.)

Frankly, I think B. Schenn + L. Schenn + is the way to go. I also think it is the best package for Nashville, other than something insane like Couturier + Coburn + +.

As I mentioned yesterday, a few (perhaps distraught) Predators fans expressed interested in the Schenns, noting that having both of them might make it likely they would be able to keep their star players--assuming they continue to progress.

Quote:
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.250m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Harry Zolnierczyk ($0.925m) / Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Shea Weber ($8.000m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($0.875m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Michael Leighton ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,908,373; BONUSES: $450,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $3,291,627
Obviously, we need to do some work on that bottom-9. Any one of Doan, Mueller, etc. would slot in better at 2LW, bumping Read back down and bringing things into order. In true, we probably would need to sign two forwards, unless they are comfortable with Harry Z on the 4th line.

Between the 3.2 million and Pronger's LTIR money, though, there's some space in there to address those needs.

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07-05-2012, 08:29 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
This has been mentioned a bunch of times, but I have concerns about giving up Coburn + + + in a bigger package for Weber. Obviously, it gets us our #1D and provides a real shot from the point on the PP, but it absolutely kills our depth on the wing. (Simmonds / Read as top-line RW? Eh.)

Frankly, I think B. Schenn + L. Schenn + is the way to go. I also think it is the best package for Nashville, other than something insane like Couturier + Coburn + +.

As I mentioned yesterday, a few (perhaps distraught) Predators fans expressed interested in the Schenns, noting that having both of them might make it likely they would be able to keep their star players--assuming they continue to progress.



Obviously, we need to do some work on that bottom-9. Any one of Doan, Mueller, etc. would slot in better at 2LW, bumping Read back down and bringing things into order. In true, we probably would need to sign two forwards, unless they are comfortable with Harry Z on the 4th line.

Between the 3.2 million and Pronger's LTIR money, though, there's some space in there to address those needs.
I think the big difference here is what fans of the teams are willing to give up and what GM's are willing. Brayden Schenn can still be a number 1 center in this league, let's remember this is his second full season in the NHL. Luke Schenn is still very very young for a defender who is developing. Change of scenery and a new coach could do the kid wonders. Of course saying all this I always look at the positives in the situations, those players could regress or simply not develop any more. To package the brothers and another 1st rounder is a ton to give. I know it's Weber, but if the price is extremely high like that, you might have to pass. Just like what is going on with Ryan right now.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing Schenn with Giroux, he could be a great scoring winger for him I think. They did play some together during the playoffs if I remember correctly.

Trade Voracek+Coburn and try as hard as you can to sign Doan.

I just think whenever one of these players like Weber or Ryan are traded, the team giving them up will lose no matter what. The return is never as good as it seems.(there are exceptions of course)

I would really just hate to see the brothers leave before we even get the chance to see them play and develop together.


Last edited by Prongo: 07-05-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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07-05-2012, 08:37 AM
  #67
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Here's an interesting concept...

Do nothing.

Keep cap space, hunt for bargains, keep your powder dry for the trade deadline and wait to see what you really need.

Right now D is Mez, Kimmo, Coburn, Schenn, Grossman, MAB and Gus, plus several other NHL?AHL type guys. That's pretty good.

O is Giroux, Vora, Hartnell, Read, Cooter, Briere, Schenn, Simmer, Max, Wellwood and a bunch of energy guys. That's pretty good.

If Bryz returns to earth, this isn't bad. Then when the cap retracts - no way that the majority of the league can afford the level it is at now, the Flyers pounce.

If Holmgren - actually Big Ed - can be patient for 1/2 a year the Flyers could be a top team for the rest of the decade. If they do something stupid in haste (give up 1/2 the team for Weber) they can repent at leisure. Hold on to some draft picks for a couple of years build some inventory of players.

It is completely likely that Weber goes no where this summer.

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07-05-2012, 08:43 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
I think the big difference here is what fans of the teams are willing to give up and what GM's are willing. Brayden Schenn can still be a number 1 center in this league, let's remember this is his second full season in the NHL. Luke Schenn is still very very young for a defender who is developing. Change of scenery and a new coach could do the kid wonders. Of course saying all this I always look at the positives in the situations, those players could regress or simply not develop any more. To package the brothers and another 1st rounder is a ton to give. I know it's Weber, but if the price is extremely high like that, you might have to pass. Just like what is going on with Ryan right now.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing Schenn with Giroux, he could be a great scoring winger for him I think. They did play some together during the playoffs if I remember correctly.

Trade Voracek+Coburn and try as hard as you can to sign Doan.

I just think whenever one of these players like Weber or Ryan are traded, the team giving them up will lose no matter what. The return is never as good as it seems.(there are exceptions of course)

I would really just hate to see the brothers leave before we even get the chance to see them play and develop together.
Wait, is your premise that B. Schenn + L. Schenn > Voracek + Coburn from the Flyers perspective, or that the Schenns wouldn't get the trade done? If it is the latter, I can buy that, but if it is the former, I massively, massively disagree. I can see a case for Brayden over Jake, but if Luke tries really, really hard, he might, one day, turn into Coburn.

If you look at the line-ups after the respective trades, without any other moves, or with the same other moves, it is pretty clear to me that the Flyers are better off giving up the Schenns than Voracek + Coburn.

Option #1 (Trade Schenns +)
Quote:
Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
______-Briere-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read
etc.

Coburn-Weber
Timonen-Grossmann
Mezsaros-MAB / Etc.
Option #2 (Trade Voracek + Coburn +_
Quote:
Hartnell-Giroux-Read / Simmonds
Schenn-Breire-Read / Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-____
etc.

Timonen-Weber
Grossmann-Schenn
Meszaros-MAB / etc.
In either case, we need to work on the fourth line, but that first option has better balance across its forwards, and the defensive pairs are pretty strong--.

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07-05-2012, 08:54 AM
  #69
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It's not going to happen, but in this intellectual debate, 2 Schenns and a first for Weber (assuming extension as always) is easily a price I pay.

Let's remember, Weber isn't just a tremendous defensive talent, but he can also score, monster shot and tremendous on the power play.

I think the Schenns have a long career in Philadelphia, but Norse quality defensemen in their primes just don't get traded. IF Weber were available this offseason, which I doubt, I'm comfortable dealing any player not named Giroux for him as a center piece.

In terms of NHL players, 2 nickels is less than a dime.

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07-05-2012, 08:56 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Wait, is your premise that B. Schenn + L. Schenn > Voracek + Coburn from the Flyers perspective, or that the Schenns wouldn't get the trade done? If it is the latter, I can buy that, but if it is the former, I massively, massively disagree. I can see a case for Brayden over Jake, but if Luke tries really, really hard, he might, one day, turn into Coburn.

If you look at the line-ups after the respective trades, without any other moves, or with the same other moves, it is pretty clear to me that the Flyers are better off giving up the Schenns than Voracek + Coburn.

Option #1 (Trade Schenns +)


Option #2 (Trade Voracek + Coburn +_

In either case, we need to work on the fourth line, but that first option has better balance across its forwards, and the defensive pairs are pretty strong--.
It's not that I think Schenn+Schenn is better than the other deal, it's just I don't really think we should trade the brothers. If we could work something out with Voracek being the main forward going back for Weber, I would be satisfied. I actually think Voracek might hold a reasonable amount of value around the league too. He is still 23 and still developing. He could be a 60-70 winger for a top line somewhere. Also the whole Voracek+Coburn deal is based around it would help Nashville out more now and in the next two to three years. Schenn's still need more development, so making a move for them will set the franchise back some. They would need some players that can step in and absolutely contribute at this level a way they know they will. You know what you will get out of Coburn and Voracek, the Schenn's are still a wild card.

I don't know, it might be wishful thinking on my part, but I really want to keep the Schenn's. Your options about the roster are not that bad for both trades I think actually. Doan would look good with the Flyers, type of player Homer and management loves. How about Jason Arnott for the 4th line also? Maybe he goes deeper into summer without a deal, and could bring his price down somewhat?

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07-05-2012, 09:03 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
It's not that I think Schenn+Schenn is better than the other deal, it's just I don't really think we should trade the brothers. If we could work something out with Voracek being the main forward going back for Weber, I would be satisfied. I actually think Voracek might hold a reasonable amount of value around the league too. He is still 23 and still developing. He could be a 60-70 winger for a top line somewhere. Also the whole Voracek+Coburn deal is based around it would help Nashville out more now and in the next two to three years. Schenn's still need more development, so making a move for them will set the franchise back some. They would need some players that can step in and absolutely contribute at this level a way they know they will. You know what you will get out of Coburn and Voracek, the Schenn's are still a wild card.

I don't know, it might be wishful thinking on my part, but I really want to keep the Schenn's. Your options about the roster are not that bad for both trades I think actually. Doan would look good with the Flyers, type of player Homer and management loves. How about Jason Arnott for the 4th line also? Maybe he goes deeper into summer without a deal, and could bring his price down somewhat?
If Nashville trades Weber, they are in operation rebuild either way. I think one of their posters put the choice as either "Operation Weber" or "Operation Cap Floor."

You're right that Coburn helps them more right now, but the Schenns provide a better foundation for the future--both on the ice, I think, and in terms of marketing, etc. They don't have a true 1C in their organization, while they have a number of very good wing players and prospects (particularly if Wilson is, as it seems, destined for the wing rather than the middle).

For that reason, I think we need to proceed with the assumption that one of Couturier or Schenn is going to Nashville for Weber. If you accept that premise, then I think Schenn + Schenn makes the most sense--as it is unlikely we would trade Brayden and keep Luke, and because most of us (and, I think, the organization) would much prefer to keep Couturier to Brayden, if forced to choose.

I don't dispute Vorcaek's value league-wide, but he'll never be a marketable-type player, because of style, personality, etc. If Nashville moves Weber (after losing Suter), they will need someone to do that long-term.

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07-05-2012, 09:05 AM
  #72
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I don't think there is anyway Nashville wouldn't insist on one of Schenn or Couturier in a deal for Weber. Anahiem and Columbus are insisting and have a much less valuable player to trade. I think a package centered around Voracek is easily beat by most teams. He is a good player but has yet to hit 20 goals and is only 3 yrs away from being a UFA.

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07-05-2012, 09:09 AM
  #73
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With whats being floated around. I just don't want Weber. Sure he's a great player, but he's not worth gutting this team of everything they have.

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07-05-2012, 09:19 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
LeBrun was just on TSN Radio in Toronto and said the following:

1) Poile and Nashville will go hard after Weber over the next few days and try to get him signed to a long-term deal.

2) He speculated that, if they can't get him signed long-term, the Predators would have no choice but to shop him for a "trade-of-the-year" type return.

3) He also said that an OS is unlikely, because Weber would realize that Nashville will match any offer. He suggested that, baring a long-term extension, the most likely outcome is that Weber signs his QO and Poile shops him.

Given all that, and given the Flyers natural interest in Weber, I thought it might make sense to start a thread for Weber-specific speculation, proposals, etc.

UPDATE: LeBrun's Column


http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-are-teammates
If he does have to trade, which he will. You would have to be an idiot to give up anything for a 1 season rental.

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07-05-2012, 09:21 AM
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Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Fs View Post
If he does have to trade, which he will. You would have to be an idiot to give up anything for a 1 season rental.
If you had read subsequent posts, you'd see that there was a pretty general consensus that a trade would be contingent on a negotiating window, etc.

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