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Could Plekanec be the one on the way out ?

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Old
07-04-2012, 10:38 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Why would his value "never be higher" when he is coming off his worst statistical season in 3 years and the team was crap last year?
Because I don't think he'll get any better, he's closing on 30 and unfortunately they have Gionta and DD with Gallagher in the wings as small skill. The Roy/Ott trade is a good barometer on where the league is heading.

According to THIS, Habs ranked 27th in size, and Gill likely skewed those stats a plenty. Even Gauthier fessed up to this late last season.

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07-04-2012, 10:40 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
So, not one of you thinks that Plekanec is "untouchable"? Good.

What does everyone think we should get for him on the trade market were we to trade him?
Nobody on a 28th place team is untouchable. Price is close,that's it.

I just don't think this team would be anything but terrible if you trade Plek for a winger, as DD and Eller are, for now at least, not nearly as good. Plekanec alone won't get you Bobby Ryan, Plekanec plus prospects for Ryan is a bad trade.

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07-04-2012, 10:42 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
A lot of speculation on the trade board from other fanbases that assume he's crud because Montreal fans keep throwing him in proposals or we're all never satisfied with what we currently have and love to play fantasy GM (Which we all do)
I'm sorry, but I don't think that was really a response to my question.

If you don't think he's untouchable, what do you think we should get for him were we to pull the trigger on a trade?

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07-04-2012, 10:48 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He isn't untoucheable, but should only be traded if the offer is too good to say no. Like say Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin.

Plekanec allowed Desharnais to have a big year last year by playing a ton of tough minutes. Trading him now would also accelerate the arrival of Galchenyuk and potentially derail his development. In order to move Plekanec before July 1st, it would have to be a ridiculous offer as his value will probably only go up.
The problem is the opposition doesn't consider playing against Plekanec "the tough minutes". Pleks is the checker, as he lacks the creativity and fearlessness of DD.

I find Plekanec's willingness to be hit to make a play low, yet a hard working intelligent defensive player, who certainly has value around the league. I meant to trade Plekanec early this year if possible, and we're past July 1st now.

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07-04-2012, 10:50 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He isn't untoucheable, but should only be traded if the offer is too good to say no. Like say Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin.

Plekanec allowed Desharnais to have a big year last year by playing a ton of tough minutes. Trading him now would also accelerate the arrival of Galchenyuk and potentially derail his development. In order to move Plekanec before July 1st, it would have to be a ridiculous offer as his value will probably only go up.
Sorry, but that's effectively untouchable. No GM would ever make that trade ever. You could say the same thing about PK and Price who we all agree are "untouchable." 'Only if the offer is something ridiculous like...Malkin!' This is what is meant by "untouchable."

I think you're unwilling to consider the argument that's being made. The argument that's being made is that Plekanec's peak value, aka, now, will be wasted on the team we have currently. He will likely not be as big of a part of our future contender as he is a part of the team as it stands today. If we're agreed that we're not contending for anything in the next 3-5 years, then the question becomes is it better to maximize the potential of that contender, or of the team going into the 2012/13 or 2013/14 seasons?

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07-04-2012, 10:52 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Nobody on a 28th place team is untouchable. Price is close,that's it.

I just don't think this team would be anything but terrible if you trade Plek for a winger, as DD and Eller are, for now at least, not nearly as good. Plekanec alone won't get you Bobby Ryan, Plekanec plus prospects for Ryan is a bad trade.
When making a trade, an asset comes back. Clearly just deleting Plekanec would make the team worse. I'm not talking about Gomez here.

I don't think it would take Galchenuk along with Plek to make the deal for Ryan. Ryan is younger, bigger and would fit the habs better, in my opinion, than Plekanec.

Sometimes big moves are necessary to change the character of a team, just like the Flyers did with Richards and Carter.

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07-04-2012, 10:54 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't think that was really a response to my question.

If you don't think he's untouchable, what do you think we should get for him were we to pull the trigger on a trade?
He's far from untouchable, just a high price for what he brings to this team
He'd be a part of a package deal that would land a bona fide number one centre, who that centre is is beyond my speculation and the first name most will come up with would probably be Bobby Ryan to play centre

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07-04-2012, 10:54 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Znthnk View Post
The problem is the opposition doesn't consider playing against Plekanec "the tough minutes". Pleks is the checker, as he lacks the creativity and fearlessness of DD.

I find Plekanec's willingness to be hit to make a play low, yet a hard working intelligent defensive player, who certainly has value around the league. I meant to trade Plekanec early this year if possible, and we're past July 1st now.
July 1st 2013.

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07-04-2012, 10:55 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Sorry, but that's effectively untouchable. No GM would ever make that trade ever. You could say the same thing about PK and Price who we all agree are "untouchable." 'Only if the offer is something ridiculous like...Malkin!' This is what is meant by "untouchable."

I think you're unwilling to consider the argument that's being made. The argument that's being made is that Plekanec's peak value, aka, now, will be wasted on the team we have currently. He will likely not be as big of a part of our future contender as he is a part of the team as it stands today. If we're agreed that we're not contending for anything in the next 3-5 years, then the question becomes is it better to maximize the potential of that contender, or of the team going into the 2012/13 or 2013/14 seasons?
I would agree with this. I can't seem to see Plekanec as a key factor for playoff success in the long term. Sometimes a step back is needed to make a step forward.

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07-04-2012, 10:57 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Nobody on a 28th place team is untouchable. Price is close,that's it.

I just don't think this team would be anything but terrible if you trade Plek for a winger, as DD and Eller are, for now at least, not nearly as good
That would be the idea behind the trade. I've used the comparison before, but it's a bishop on f7 sacrifice. Giving up material for the accelerated development of an attack. Trading pleks not only could give us a large return, but it increases the value of our draft next year.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Plekanec alone won't get you Bobby Ryan, Plekanec plus prospects for Ryan is a bad trade.
The Ryan trade won't work because of Ryan's hype. Great

My ideal trade would be for a 1st, and a prospect close to graduation. We'd have to move him for assets which are going to grow in value. It's the only way we could get overpayed for an understated, but valuable player in Plekanec. I very much dislike the idea of trading him for an established player.

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07-04-2012, 11:00 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Znthnk View Post
When making a trade, an asset comes back. Clearly just deleting Plekanec would make the team worse. I'm not talking about Gomez here.

I don't think it would take Galchenuk along with Plek to make the deal for Ryan. Ryan is younger, bigger and would fit the habs better, in my opinion, than Plekanec.

Sometimes big moves are necessary to change the character of a team, just like the Flyers did with Richards and Carter.
From what I hear the Ducks are asking for a ransom for Ryan. Plekanec is not that.

If anything it would make more sense to wait until the trade deadline, hopping Therrien uses Plek better than RC. One of Plekanec or Desharnais could have more value by then.

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07-04-2012, 11:00 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Znthnk View Post
When making a trade, an asset comes back. Clearly just deleting Plekanec would make the team worse. I'm not talking about Gomez here.

I don't think it would take Galchenuk along with Plek to make the deal for Ryan. Ryan is younger, bigger and would fit the habs better, in my opinion, than Plekanec.

Sometimes big moves are necessary to change the character of a team, just like the Flyers did with Richards and Carter.
How ?

Plekanec is our best center, best two-way forward, we know what to expect with him...

Also, you undervalue him a lot, he's an excellent player able to get up to 70pts with good linemates. At 30yo, he's in his prime for another 3-4 years.

Ryan could be a better fit in 3-4 years, but for now, it would be a downgrade.

Why is Anaheim willing to trade him if he's so magical ? Don't forget that he's the only one of their Big 3 signed for next year... he's known to take a few shifts off, what Plekanec NEVER does.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ryan and I would love to have him on board, but don't get a greenergrassis while thinking about obtaining him.

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07-04-2012, 11:03 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
That would be the idea behind the trade. I've used the comparison before, but it's a bishop on f7 sacrifice. Giving up material for the accelerated development of an attack. Trading pleks not only could give us a large return, but it increases the value of our draft next year.



The Ryan trade won't work because of Ryan's hype. Great

My ideal trade would be for a 1st, and a prospect close to graduation. We'd have to move him for assets which are going to grow in value. It's the only way we could get overpayed for an understated, but valuable player in Plekanec. I very much dislike the idea of trading him for an established player.
Love the chess analogy, and that is how I see it. Do you have any particular prospects in mind? The first would likely be a late one since any rebuilding teams will shy away from parting with their future.

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07-04-2012, 11:09 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
That would be the idea behind the trade. I've used the comparison before, but it's a bishop on f7 sacrifice. Giving up material for the accelerated development of an attack. Trading pleks not only could give us a large return, but it increases the value of our draft next year.



The Ryan trade won't work because of Ryan's hype. Great

My ideal trade would be for a 1st, and a prospect close to graduation. We'd have to move him for assets which are going to grow in value. It's the only way we could get overpayed for an understated, but valuable player in Plekanec. I very much dislike the idea of trading him for an established player.
Well your argument is one to give up and tank from day one, then yeah, this makes the most sense.

Personally i don't think this is something you think about until the middle of the season.

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07-04-2012, 11:11 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plekanec is the team's best center and it's not particularly close. Without him DD doesn't get the nice offensive minutes against second-tier opposition he and his great wingers have used to rack up the points. Meanwhile Pleks has almost matched him offensively while taking a revolving door of second-rate wingers against the best the league has to offer, more often than not starting next to Price.

But hey, DD's got more points so he must be better right? I thought I was the one blinded by numbers.

If it weren't for him being a fantastic deal at his price point for one more year and the fact that it would generate riots, I'd suggest DD should actually be trade bait. He's certainly the closest the Habs have. His value is pretty inflated right now.
Not surprisingly, I agree with every word of this. The only thing I'd question is the idea that the fan base would go ballistic should we trade Desharnais. Not that I believe we should -- the same argument for keeping the very-valuable Plekanec can be made for keeping the slightly less-valuable DD -- but if it's because you foresee trading DD as a potential language powder keg, I don't see it. Our fan base doesn't get nearly as worked up about the language of the guys on the ice as they do about the guys in suits. There was a collective shrug when Pouliot and Darche got booted, and I think Habs fans would be disappointed but pragmatic about trading Desharnais, provided we got someone good in return.

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07-04-2012, 11:14 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
How ?

Plekanec is our best center, best two-way forward, we know what to expect with him...

Also, you undervalue him a lot, he's an excellent player able to get up to 70pts with good linemates. At 30yo, he's in his prime for another 3-4 years.

Ryan could be a better fit in 3-4 years, but for now, it would be a downgrade.

Why is Anaheim willing to trade him if he's so magical ? Don't forget that he's the only one of their Big 3 signed for next year... he's known to take a few shifts off, what Plekanec NEVER does.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ryan and I would love to have him on board, but don't get a greenergrassis while thinking about obtaining him.
I've been unimpressed with Pleks performances in the playoffs, often rationalized as him neutralizing "top opposition/tough minutes", but noticed his willingness to be hit to make a play to be low, which I find pivotal in the post-season. Sometimes point production can be deceptive (look at Kaberle), and I don't find Pleky to be a "clutch player".

As far as Ryan, I like his size, Gionta is unmovable (NTC), really like Gallagher's intensity, and find that DD is EXTREMELY underrated in this forum and would like the habs to keep him despite his size. His creativity and tenacity are often unappreciated.

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07-04-2012, 11:28 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Znthnk View Post
Love the chess analogy, and that is how I see it. Do you have any particular prospects in mind? The first would likely be a late one since any rebuilding teams will shy away from parting with their future.
The prospect I really want is Etem, however guys like Saad, or Coyle would probably be more realistic given the teams that own their rights.

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07-04-2012, 12:04 PM
  #268
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If some team were to offer a top prospect, then I would surely do it.

We need to re-build.

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07-04-2012, 12:10 PM
  #269
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The prospect I really want is Etem, however guys like Saad, or Coyle would probably be more realistic given the teams that own their rights.
Especially now that Minnesota just turned into a bonafide playoff team, Coyle would be a good target along with a first in the 2013 draft.

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07-04-2012, 03:32 PM
  #270
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According to THIS, Habs ranked 27th in size, and Gill likely skewed those stats a plenty. Even Gauthier fessed up to this late last season.
Theres half a inch difference between the Habs and Ruins and just one pound in weight (!). Sure Gill skews stats, so do Desharnais and Gionta (the difference on ice between a 5'6'' and 5'10'' is minimal).

This all means very little as the writer of the article states, its all about how you play. The obsession on size is ridiculous, some people definitely want to compensate.

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07-04-2012, 05:20 PM
  #271
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Theres half a inch difference between the Habs and Ruins and just one pound in weight (!). Sure Gill skews stats, so do Desharnais and Gionta (the difference on ice between a 5'6'' and 5'10'' is minimal).

This all means very little as the writer of the article states, its all about how you play. The obsession on size is ridiculous, some people definitely want to compensate.
I concur that any obsession with one criteria is ridiculous. But to simply dismiss that criteria's influence outright would also ridiculous, and suggests a strawman. Why have so many fans and media been calling for a BIG centre? Why did they qualify the size of that centre? Size may not be everything, but it's relevant.

That said, I find that while Plekanec is a hard worker and skilled, he fears getting hit more than I'd like, which becomes a hindrance particularly in the playoffs where the play is tight. His "played like a little girl" quote resonated through the media and fans for good reason, it was honest.

Edit: I would add that Gio, Gallagher and DD seem to have less of that fear, and I would gladly see these smaller players in the Habs roster. There is a tenacity and fearlessness that I sense Plekanec lacks unfortunately.

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07-04-2012, 05:27 PM
  #272
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At the trade deadline or next summer, I would trade Desharnais. Galchenyuk, and Plekanec can handle the top 2 line centre duty. It's nice to have an offensive French player, but at 5'7 or w/e, he's not a viable option as a center on a Stanley Cup contender. With Gally, Pleks and Eller, DD is the easiest to lose IMO.

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07-04-2012, 05:35 PM
  #273
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I've been unimpressed with Pleks performances in the playoffs, often rationalized as him neutralizing "top opposition/tough minutes", but noticed his willingness to be hit to make a play to be low, which I find pivotal in the post-season. Sometimes point production can be deceptive (look at Kaberle), and I don't find Pleky to be a "clutch player".

As far as Ryan, I like his size, Gionta is unmovable (NTC), really like Gallagher's intensity, and find that DD is EXTREMELY underrated in this forum and would like the habs to keep him despite his size. His creativity and tenacity are often unappreciated.
I thought he was pretty clutch 2 years ago against Pittsburgh and Washington, had a lot to do with shutting down the top players on both teams. But I guess "clutch" only applies to offense.

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07-04-2012, 06:56 PM
  #274
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Not surprisingly, I agree with every word of this. The only thing I'd question is the idea that the fan base would go ballistic should we trade Desharnais. Not that I believe we should -- the same argument for keeping the very-valuable Plekanec can be made for keeping the slightly less-valuable DD -- but if it's because you foresee trading DD as a potential language powder keg, I don't see it. Our fan base doesn't get nearly as worked up about the language of the guys on the ice as they do about the guys in suits. There was a collective shrug when Pouliot and Darche got booted, and I think Habs fans would be disappointed but pragmatic about trading Desharnais, provided we got someone good in return.

It will all depend on the return. If we move DD for a big return that makes us clear winners in the swap, it'll be fine. If it's not a trade that is as one sided, then it can create some criticism.
But MB bought himself some time with the Qc crowd by hiring a big group of local guys for the administration stand point.

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07-04-2012, 08:03 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Whizniewski View Post
At the trade deadline or next summer, I would trade Desharnais. Galchenyuk, and Plekanec can handle the top 2 line centre duty. It's nice to have an offensive French player, but at 5'7 or w/e, he's not a viable option as a center on a Stanley Cup contender. With Gally, Pleks and Eller, DD is the easiest to lose IMO.
If Bergevin trade DD to keed Plekanec, he will be hanged in french Québec. Trust me it aint happening, has DD will probably get 80 points this year, and be in the +m while Plek will be in the - once again this year.

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