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Could Plekanec be the one on the way out ?

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07-04-2012, 08:15 PM
  #276
Pierre Dagenais
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
If Bergevin trade DD to keed Plekanec, he will be hanged in french Québec. Trust me it aint happening, has DD will probably get 80 points this year, and be in the +m while Plek will be in the - once again this year.


Would you trade Plekanec for Simon Gamache?

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07-04-2012, 08:18 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
If Bergevin trade DD to keed Plekanec, he will be hanged in french Québec. Trust me it aint happening, has DD will probably get 80 points this year, and be in the +m while Plek will be in the - once again this year.
You really keep embarassing yourself with the +/- argument...

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07-04-2012, 08:21 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
If Bergevin trade DD to keed Plekanec, he will be hanged in french Québec.
I hope he does that just to troll the dummy fans we have.

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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Trust me it aint happening, has DD will probably get 80 points this year, and be in the +m while Plek will be in the - once again this year.
Right, DD with the easy assignments and top linemates while Pleks plays hard minutes with scrubs and you're trying to compare their stats. Funny thing is Pleks was just 8pts behind DD.

Pleks so under-appreciated around here it's ridiculous.

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07-04-2012, 08:23 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Znthnk View Post
I don't think Pleks trade value will ever be higher than it is now, especially for a team that's already pretty big who's having some trouble defensively. There's a reason why Buffalo traded Derek Roy for Ott. They are wise to the trend to get skilled gritty size when lacking.
Every opinion is appreciated, of course, but if I were of the opinion that DD is also at the highest value he'll ever be, and given that he is actually a better comparison to the example you used in Roy, does that not at least make him as/more likely to be the one out. I mean, if our opinions were held equal, and the rest was left to "measure"? (no pun intended, but I had to edit a lol in here... lol)

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07-04-2012, 08:26 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
You really keep embarassing yourself with the +/- argument...
You keep embarassing yourself with Kostitsyn in your username!

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07-04-2012, 08:30 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Pierre Dagenais View Post


Would you trade Plekanec for Simon Gamache?
No ... but for a draft pick or two yes!!!

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07-04-2012, 08:36 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Sorry, but that's effectively untouchable. No GM would ever make that trade ever. You could say the same thing about PK and Price who we all agree are "untouchable." 'Only if the offer is something ridiculous like...Malkin!' This is what is meant by "untouchable."

I think you're unwilling to consider the argument that's being made. The argument that's being made is that Plekanec's peak value, aka, now, will be wasted on the team we have currently. He will likely not be as big of a part of our future contender as he is a part of the team as it stands today. If we're agreed that we're not contending for anything in the next 3-5 years, then the question becomes is it better to maximize the potential of that contender, or of the team going into the 2012/13 or 2013/14 seasons?
Well that's fine, but when we're actually contending for Cups down the road, would you rather be shopping every year for that quality veteran role player to compliment your emerging core (no homo), or would you rather have a guy who (like every other player in NHL history) sees his salary/cap hit decrease according to reduced role/productivity after a certain age and has at least had the benefit of being part of the group as the younger guys emerge to the fore?

I mean, at this point, considering how long Plekanec has been our best centre, and considering the mistake I think most see in having gotten rid of Koivu "too soon", why exactly would he be anywhere near a target area for "improvement" for new management, and thus necessitate initiating a trade? Said otherwise, unless some other team comes offering the proverbial moon, why exactly would Pleks be "on the way out"? Because his value might be the "highest to date" in some's opinion? That seems ridiculous.

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07-04-2012, 10:56 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well that's fine, but when we're actually contending for Cups down the road, would you rather be shopping every year for that quality veteran role player to compliment your emerging core (no homo), or would you rather have a guy who (like every other player in NHL history) sees his salary/cap hit decrease according to reduced role/productivity after a certain age and has at least had the benefit of being part of the group as the younger guys emerge to the fore?
Well, that's not really considering the whole argument, now is it? The choice is would you rather go shopping for a veteran role player to compliment a probably much stronger young core, or would you rather have a guy "-----"-----" to compliment a probably much weaker emerging young core. If it's a choice between the veteran we know in pleks, and the one we go shopping for with the same core then the idea becomes entirely different.

It's similar to a "net present value" type calculation. You have to project the value of assets gained by trading Plekanec, and weigh them against the projected value and role that Plekanec would have at that time.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I mean, at this point, considering how long Plekanec has been our best centre, and considering the mistake I think most see in having gotten rid of Koivu "too soon", why exactly would he be anywhere near a target area for "improvement" for new management, and thus necessitate initiating a trade? Said otherwise, unless some other team comes offering the proverbial moon, why exactly would Pleks be "on the way out"? Because his value might be the "highest to date" in some's opinion? That seems ridiculous.
Some contend that we held on to Koivu too long and got nothing for him, and hindsight being what it is, they're probably right.

It's not that we need to improve upon Plekanec, or that we should move him because his value is its highest to date; it's that moving Plekanec for young, undervalued assets probably represents the most aggressive path of improvement of our club towards an eventual contender, a contender on which Plekanec's role would probably be very replaceable.

I don't for a minute think that Plekanec is "on the way out"; however, I do think that it's a move worth considering heavily.

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07-04-2012, 11:20 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
You keep embarassing yourself with Kostitsyn in your username!
At least I don't rely on a flawed and useless statistic (+/-) to desperately try and defend a point supported only by chauvinistic ideals.

And Andrei was one of the Habs most promising rookies back when I chose that name. Turned out better than Higgins or Komisarek so I was right in having some faith in him. Plekanec ended up being the best by far however so I guess it would have been more fitting especially with this conversation if I chose ''Plekanecisawesome'' or something.

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07-05-2012, 02:10 AM
  #285
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Eller molded his game after plekanec last season and had a significantly better 2nd season with the habs even if the team finished dead last

the reason id want to keep plekanec around is to try to teach that same 2-way work ethic to galchenyuk to help him out a little bit, we know he aparantly has an ok work ethic and 2 way game supposedly, but id rly love him to see plekanec up close on the ice to pick some things up

the fact that eller is 6"2 200, and galchenyuk 6"1 197 only helps their repertoires

but if desharnais shows signs of MORE progression like has the last FIVE seasons in a row in 3 different levels and shoots off an 80+ point campaign with pacioretty knocking in 40 and cole potting 30 something

then all bets are off...

very hard to pick, especially since gomez is STILL on the damn team

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07-05-2012, 02:23 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
No ... but for a draft pick or two yes!!!
To pick Simon Gamache with???

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07-05-2012, 06:03 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plekanec is the team's best center and it's not particularly close. Without him DD doesn't get the nice offensive minutes against second-tier opposition he and his great wingers have used to rack up the points. Meanwhile Pleks has almost matched him offensively while taking a revolving door of second-rate wingers against the best the league has to offer, more often than not starting next to Price.

But hey, DD's got more points so he must be better right? I thought I was the one blinded by numbers.

If it weren't for him being a fantastic deal at his price point for one more year and the fact that it would generate riots, I'd suggest DD should actually be trade bait. He's certainly the closest the Habs have. His value is pretty inflated right now.
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.

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07-05-2012, 06:08 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.
why do we have full seasons for......

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07-05-2012, 06:12 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.
Cherry picking stats. Why compare numbers of 2 players who have 2 completely different roles, anyways?

Whatch who Pleks lines play against then watch who DD's line plays against then tell me Pleks doesn't have the much tougher assignment seeing as he plays against tougher competition and had 3rd and 4th rate wingers the whole season...with all that he finished just 8 pts behind DD.

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07-05-2012, 06:25 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
If Bergevin trade DD to keed Plekanec, he will be hanged in french Québec. Trust me it aint happening, has DD will probably get 80 points this year, and be in the +m while Plek will be in the - once again this year.
You do realize that not even 10 players reached the 80 point mark last season, right? Out of the nine players, five play at the centre position;

- Evgeni Malkin (109 points)
- Steven Stamkos (97 points)
- Jason Spezza (84 points)
- John Tavares (81 points)
- Henrik Sedin (81 points)

Out of those five, can you see Desharnais having as good or better of a season next year? I really don't. He just made the 60 point barrier, let's wait a bit before we jump him up a whole 20 points in one season.

Pacioretty played 79 games last season, Cole played 82. You know what that meant for Desharnais? Consistency. They played as a unit together and were never broken up due to the fact that they gelled instantly. Not to say it was completely unexpected, as Desharnais and Pacioretty were succesful together in Hamilton in the past. Adding Cole was the cinnamon on top of the whipped cream, bringing speed and size to open up some ice for Desharnais and Pacioretty to play with.

Plekanec on the other hand was subjected to play with AHL calibre wingers. Do you expect Desharnais to reach 60 points playing with Palushaj, Geoffrion, Leblanc, White, Bourque, and so on? There was no consistency whatsoever when it came to Plekanec's line and therefor, no chemistry could be built and the result was quite a disaster. Bring up the +/- up all you want, but the wingers that I mentioned are all not mature enough yet to play a defensive style that mirrors Plekanec.

Sorry, last season is not a good indicator as to how good Plekanec really is. Stick two big, skilled wingers on his line and we're not having this discussion at all.

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07-05-2012, 06:31 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.
You don't think that maybe it's in large part due to the fact that DD played with Cole and Pacioretty while Plekanec mostly had a revolving door of Bourque Geoffrion Palushaj White Darche and still took all the tough defensive matchups?

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07-05-2012, 06:35 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
You do realize that not even 10 players reached the 80 point mark last season, right? Out of the nine players, five play at the centre position;

- Evgeni Malkin (109 points)
- Steven Stamkos (97 points)
- Jason Spezza (84 points)
- John Tavares (81 points)
- Henrik Sedin (81 points)

Out of those five, can you see Desharnais having as good or better of a season next year? I really don't. He just made the 60 point barrier, let's wait a bit before we jump him up a whole 20 points in one season.

Pacioretty played 79 games last season, Cole played 82. You know what that meant for Desharnais? Consistency. They played as a unit together and were never broken up due to the fact that they gelled instantly. Not to say it was completely unexpected, as Desharnais and Pacioretty were succesful together in Hamilton in the past. Adding Cole was the cinnamon on top of the whipped cream, bringing speed and size to open up some ice for Desharnais and Pacioretty to play with.

Plekanec on the other hand was subjected to play with AHL calibre wingers. Do you expect Desharnais to reach 60 points playing with Palushaj, Geoffrion, Leblanc, White, Bourque, and so on? There was no consistency whatsoever when it came to Plekanec's line and therefor, no chemistry could be built and the result was quite a disaster. Bring up the +/- up all you want, but the wingers that I mentioned are all not mature enough yet to play a defensive style that mirrors Plekanec.

Sorry, last season is not a good indicator as to how good Plekanec really is. Stick two big, skilled wingers on his line and we're not having this discussion at all.
Pleks played with crap all season and still put up more points than:

M. Richards
Lecavalier
Roy
J. Staal

But people think he's trash and should be shipped out.

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07-05-2012, 07:04 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.
Herp, and/or derp.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You don't think that maybe it's in large part due to the fact that DD played with Cole and Pacioretty while Plekanec mostly had a revolving door of Bourque Geoffrion Palushaj White Darche and still took all the tough defensive matchups?

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07-05-2012, 07:23 AM
  #294
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You don't think that maybe it's in large part due to the fact that DD played with Cole and Pacioretty while Plekanec mostly had a revolving door of Bourque Geoffrion Palushaj White Darche and still took all the tough defensive matchups?
I'm a huge DD fan, but this is definitely true. Plekanec (or Gorges - I'm torn) is my favourite player on the team. I hate when people say DD is a product of his linemates because he's not. But he definitely had way better linemates so it was easier to produce than Plekanec.

I would have no problem putting Patches on the wing with Pleks and Bourque up with DD, if needed. Plus, I'd love to see what people say when Bourque scores a career high in goals on DD's wing ("Well of course DD had a good season, he had our two best wingers again!" ).

And I'd also like for people to stop complaining about Pleks production since he'd have two good wingers.

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07-05-2012, 07:23 AM
  #295
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What were Plekanec linemates last year? A mix of Bourque, Darche, Cammalleri, Moen and Gionta.

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07-05-2012, 07:27 AM
  #296
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What were Plekanec linemates last year? A mix of Bourque, Darche, Cammalleri, Moen and Gionta.
I think Eller and Leblanc too, at certain times. Pacioretty and Cole at the start of the season as well.

I never understood why JM switched the lines after putting Leblanc and Cammalleri with Desharnais. Cammalleri started scoring, Leblanc was chipping in and that line was having success (which debunks the theory of DD needing gritty big wingers).

It opened up the others wingers, but JM must have wanted to lose his job since he split them up while they were producing.

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07-05-2012, 07:39 AM
  #297
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What were Plekanec linemates last year? A mix of Bourque, Darche, Cammalleri, Moen and Gionta.
Source 1, Source 2

Incredible to think that the most consistency Plekanec had all year with linemates was the 7.5% of the time he was with Cammy & Gionta. 71.5% of the time was with "other combinations" which obviously existed less than 4.6% of the time. Revolving door of bummery. I mean, I never minded Blunden, but when I see lines of Darche-Plekanec-Blunden, Gomez-Plekanec-Blunden, Bourque-Plekanec-Blunden, I can't help but think someone's being used improperly there...

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07-05-2012, 08:04 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Source 1, Source 2

Incredible to think that the most consistency Plekanec had all year with linemates was the 7.5% of the time he was with Cammy & Gionta. 71.5% of the time was with "other combinations" which obviously existed less than 4.6% of the time. Revolving door of bummery. I mean, I never minded Blunden, but when I see lines of Darche-Plekanec-Blunden, Gomez-Plekanec-Blunden, Bourque-Plekanec-Blunden, I can't help but think someone's being used improperly there...
My god! 7.5% the highest percentage of consistency for pleks. That's crazy! It didn't help with Gio getting injured. If this team stays with the roster they have now, Pleks will have decent linemates in Bourque (who has an off year yes, but has scored a lot of goals the three seasons before it) and Gio (who when healthy, has scored for the habs).

As long as injuries aren't a serious problem (for him or his linemates), Pleks should get back to 60+ points.

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07-05-2012, 08:10 AM
  #299
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My god! 7.5% the highest percentage of consistency for pleks. That's crazy! It didn't help with Gio getting injured. If this team stays with the roster they have now, Pleks will have decent linemates in Bourque (who has an off year yes, but has scored a lot of goals the three seasons before it) and Gio (who when healthy, has scored for the habs).

As long as injuries aren't a serious problem (for him or his linemates), Pleks should get back to 60+ points.
I know. Compare that to DD, for example, who had MaxPac and Cole over 58% of the time!! Even Darche got to hang with Nokes and Blunden 11% of the time, lol.

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07-05-2012, 08:15 AM
  #300
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You do realize that not even 10 players reached the 80 point mark last season, right? Out of the nine players, five play at the centre position;

- Evgeni Malkin (109 points)
- Steven Stamkos (97 points)
- Jason Spezza (84 points)
- John Tavares (81 points)
- Henrik Sedin (81 points)

Out of those five, can you see Desharnais having as good or better of a season next year? I really don't. He just made the 60 point barrier, let's wait a bit before we jump him up a whole 20 points in one season.

Pacioretty played 79 games last season, Cole played 82. You know what that meant for Desharnais? Consistency. They played as a unit together and were never broken up due to the fact that they gelled instantly. Not to say it was completely unexpected, as Desharnais and Pacioretty were succesful together in Hamilton in the past. Adding Cole was the cinnamon on top of the whipped cream, bringing speed and size to open up some ice for Desharnais and Pacioretty to play with.

Plekanec on the other hand was subjected to play with AHL calibre wingers. Do you expect Desharnais to reach 60 points playing with Palushaj, Geoffrion, Leblanc, White, Bourque, and so on? There was no consistency whatsoever when it came to Plekanec's line and therefor, no chemistry could be built and the result was quite a disaster. Bring up the +/- up all you want, but the wingers that I mentioned are all not mature enough yet to play a defensive style that mirrors Plekanec.

Sorry, last season is not a good indicator as to how good Plekanec really is. Stick two big, skilled wingers on his line and we're not having this discussion at all.
In the last 60 games of the season, DD was almost a point a game player. So i really feel is going to have more points this year. the guy is still getting better. DD haters will be mistify, the guy has the heart of a lion, impeccable work ethic.

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