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Free Agent Sit and Think Things Through Thoroughly (Matt Carle signed with Tampa Bay)

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Old
07-04-2012, 10:08 PM
  #726
GKJ
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Understand. But look at his numbers. A puck moving defenseman who can't shoot or powerplay a PP at 5.5 for 6 years? I'm glad homer passed on that. Mez capable of being that player but like you said there isn't any reliability. People sleep on Coburn. Who is our best all around defenseman with Kimmo getting old and Pronger injured. Coburn just isn't as polished in the offensive zone. That is where his game needs work.
He doesn't have to be a PP dynamo, he was just fine at even-strength, constantly among the league leaders producing points, let alone where his puck possession numbers are at. Carle was rarely on the top PP unit for the Flyers, and only ever had to do it because of injuries.

Coburn is 27, if he's not a polished offensive defenseman by now, it ain't happening.

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Originally Posted by Carle Winslow View Post
So really, the most important development tonight is that my username is officially useless. Almost as useless as Matt Carle in the defensive zone. Or Matt Carle with a cap hit suitable for a top 20 defenseman.
At least it's only been 2 hours and not 5 years

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07-04-2012, 10:09 PM
  #727
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I'm not going to examine every name (I'll leave that to those who write the pieces and analyze, but just looking at it, there isn't a chance in hell I'd take Jack Johnson and Tomas Kaberle over Carle.
Agree on Kaberle, since we're talking about an older player with less defensive skill. But you wouldn't take Jack Johnson over Matt Carle? I'd love to hear that explanation. Let me grab my whiskey, I want to be as drunk as you when you tell the most amazing story ever.

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07-04-2012, 10:09 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
he wasn't getting a blank check

http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?t...ion=D&limit=50

You can have everyone in the Top 20 on this list. From 20-50, how many would you take over Carle? And that's not to say that I think you're out to lunch of if you give me names, or a few, there's always a debate, but just to ask.
That list doesn't have term of contract remaining on it, which is a pretty essential element to the discussion. If Carle wanted to go 2 years for $11M, I think we all would have been thrilled. It's the 6 years at the higher then warranted rate that presents the problem, especially when you're working without knowing what the CBA is going to look at.

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07-04-2012, 10:11 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
He doesn't have to be a PP dynamo, he was just fine at even-strength, constantly among the league leaders producing points, let alone where his puck possession numbers are at. Carle was rarely on the top PP unit for the Flyers, and only ever had to do it because of injuries.

Coburn is 27, if he's not a polished offensive defenseman by now, it ain't happening.
Well certain guys who are getting paid need to step up. No more excuse for guys like Mez.

Coburn can get better. His problem isn't skills its just a lack of decision making in the offensive zone. Mental part of the game can always grown.

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07-04-2012, 10:11 PM
  #730
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Look at some of the other signings. Carle getting 5.5 is about fair. It is putting him a hair above Wideman. Market determines value more than the score sheets, unfortunately.

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07-04-2012, 10:12 PM
  #731
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if the flyers signed carle for that money, then this team would be in so much trouble because if the flyers had to get rid of read/jake for ryan or nash then this team wouldnt have the money to sign another 3rd or 4th winger so that's good,

you cant keep stockpiling on defense, nj didnt have a great defense but beat the rangers they didnt have a number one defensemen, right now the flyers need defense in the wingers like nash/ryan and another winger like ruslan fedetako, im bad at spelling,

you need good forchecking/defense from the wingers too which the kings have and flyers dont, which they got to fix, they cant just rely on defenders, wingers/center have to play defense too, without that, they cant win a cup.

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07-04-2012, 10:13 PM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carle Winslow View Post
Agree on Kaberle, since we're talking about an older player with less defensive skill. But you wouldn't take Jack Johnson over Matt Carle? I'd love to hear that explanation. Let me grab my whiskey, I want to be as drunk as you when you tell the most amazing story ever.
Jack Johnson isn't as good as Carle was defensively, and that should speak in volumes. Now, Johnson was more physical and has a better shot, but offensively, he's about the same as Carle. Carle actually is a better defenseman and it's not even close.

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07-04-2012, 10:13 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Look at some of the other signings. Carle getting 5.5 is about fair. It is putting him a hair above Wideman. Market determines value more than the score sheets, unfortunately.
Honestly, I trust Carle defensively more than Wideman.

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07-04-2012, 10:14 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Coburn is 27, if he's not a polished offensive defenseman by now, it ain't happening.
A few times a year he actually uses his skating ability and blows by guys and unloads a massive slapper on goal. The rest of the season its like he forgets he's capable of it. I tried to convince myself it's because he has to be the responsible half of whatever pairing he's on, but it's more than that obviously.

We're in a bit of trouble starting offense from the back end.

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07-04-2012, 10:18 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
A few times a year he actually uses his skating ability and blows by guys and unloads a massive slapper on goal. The rest of the season its like he forgets he's capable of it. I tried to convince myself it's because he has to be the responsible half of whatever pairing he's on, but it's more than that obviously.

We're in a bit of trouble starting offense from the back end.
A few times a year, but not with extended consistency that Carle did.

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07-04-2012, 10:19 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Jack Johnson isn't as good as Carle was defensively, and that should speak in volumes. Now, Johnson was more physical and has a better shot, but offensively, he's about the same as Carle. Carle actually is a better defenseman and it's not even close.
So offensively, the same. Not as good defensively, but more physical. So....this means its not even close?

They're comparable. I like more physical defensemen as I think guys like Timonen and Desjardins and Carle have their role along the boards, but are not good at clogging up the middle.

Agreed on the shooting. It looks like Carle has the same accuracy as Jeff Carter and the same strength as a bantam goalie. His one goal in the playoffs was an absolute fluke, because watching him all season his wrist shots hit nothing but shins and skates...if they didn't dribble and die before they got that far.

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07-04-2012, 10:19 PM
  #737
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I am ok with letting Carle go at that price. Three things I will remember about him: 1) set-up 3 playoff OT goals (Gagne vs. Bruins, G vs. Hawks and Voracek vs. Pens), 2)some painful turnovers, 3)seemed like a good guy. Wish him luck, except vs. Flyers or Jets. Should get some assists on Stamkos snipes.

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07-04-2012, 10:20 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
We're in a bit of trouble starting offense from the back end.
I'm a bit nervous about it as well. At times the Flyers seemed very hemmed in on their side of the ice.

It's due to losing Pronger, really. Pronger would hold the puck and make a great outlet pass. The other teams would rarely even attempt to attack him with the puck. His superiority over them would shoo them away and he would take the pass he wanted.

A lot of that fell to Carle as a defenseman who was decent at transitioning the puck from zone to zone.

Not sure now who steps up and takes the mantle. Not that it can't be done, but the Flyers need a non-forward to feed the puck to forwards going up ice. It's a big part of Lavi's system.

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07-04-2012, 10:20 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
That's because this wasn't a stupid contract. It was actually fair value. Carle is worlds better than Wideman but doesn't make much more.


Assuming other moves are not made (there likely will, but I'm only worrying about what's on our roster), let's not forget Timonen is only getting older, will wear down faster, and now has to eat even more minutes sans two 25-minute defensemen. Oh, and his contract is up too next summer.
It wasn't a stupid contract for TB but would have been stupid for the Flyers to invest another $5.5M in their D which is already the highest paid in the league without solving their main need - a #1 dman.

You argue both sides of the fence when you say it's an issue Kimmo is getting older then say he only has 1 year left and will need to be replaced. There is no reason to believe they can't get another solid season out of Kimmo based off of what he did last season while injured. Coburn, Grossman, Mez and Schenn can log big minutes.

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07-04-2012, 10:22 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Honestly, I trust Carle defensively more than Wideman.
I think everyone does, but IMO Wideman AND Carle got too much. I'm not prepared to call Carle as massive an overpay as Wideman, but he's getting a million a year more than he reasonably should have gotten.

At the end of the day, there were no available free agent defensemen and a huge cap increase. It was a Seller's market from the onset. I happen to think that in future years, you'll get a better all around defenseman for 5.5M a year... I guess we'll see.

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07-04-2012, 10:24 PM
  #741
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Okay, I'll bite.

Karlsson, Byfuglien, Campbell, Chara, Pietrangelo, Weber, Edler, Boyle, Streit, Suter, Phaneuf, Bieksa, Yandle, Timonen, Letang, Keith, JJ, Burns, Hamhuis, Kronwall, Doughty, Subban, Seabrook, Enstrom, Karlsson, McDonagh, Ehrhoff, Kaberle, Bouwmeester, Tyutin, EJ, Girardi, Goligoski, Bogosian, Giordano, Myers, Coburn, Hamonic, Seidenberg, Pitkanen, Alzner, Gleason, Phillips, Pronger, Green, Staal, and Markov. I'd definitely take those guys over Carle, and there are plenty of others that could definitely be argued, like Brad Stuart, Shattenkirk, OEL, Kulikov, Gardiner, Visnovsky, Wisniewski, etc.

exactly.. we have seen what Carle can do.. time to try something/someone else..

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07-04-2012, 10:24 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I'm a bit nervous about it as well. At times the Flyers seemed very hemmed in on their side of the ice.

It's due to losing Pronger, really. Pronger would hold the puck and make a great outlet pass. The other teams would rarely even attempt to attack him with the puck. His superiority over them would shoo them away and he would take the pass he wanted.

A lot of that fell to Carle as a defenseman who was decent at transitioning the puck from zone to zone.

Not sure now who steps up and takes the mantle. Not that it can't be done, but the Flyers need a non-forward to feed the puck to forwards going up ice. It's a big part of Lavi's system.
Having a RHD or two will help them get the puck out of their end more easily but also Mez, Kimo, Coburn are pretty good at bringing the puck up ice. Mez and Kimmo can make good outlet passes. I think Schenn has that potential but we'll see what happens.

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07-04-2012, 10:28 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
It wasn't a stupid contract for TB but would have been stupid for the Flyers to invest another $5.5M in their D which is already the highest paid in the league without solving their main need - a #1 dman.

You argue both sides of the fence when you say it's an issue Kimmo is getting older then say he only has 1 year left and will need to be replaced. There is no reason to believe they can't get another solid season out of Kimmo based off of what he did last season while injured. Coburn, Grossman, Mez and Schenn can log big minutes.
They can try to make a trade, but that's all speculation. When we traded for Luke Schenn that by July 4 he simply replaced Carle on the backend? I don't want an injured Kimmo, who refuses to take nights off at the end of the season, I want him fresh for the playoffs.

To your first point, easily fixable by trading Meszaros, who holds some value because everyone is looking for defensemen.

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07-04-2012, 10:38 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by Beastieboy View Post
I am ok with letting Carle go at that price. Three things I will remember about him: 1) set-up 3 playoff OT goals (Gagne vs. Bruins, G vs. Hawks and Voracek vs. Pens), 2)some painful turnovers, 3)seemed like a good guy. Wish him luck, except vs. Flyers or Jets. Should get some assists on Stamkos snipes.
dont forget his game tying 3rd period goal in game 82 vs the rangers (shootout win that got us to the playoffs)

carle was a class act, always played hard, and was a good player for us

id like to still have him but not for 5.5

there is no doubt that our defense is worse without him (as of right now anyway...could still find a replacement)

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07-04-2012, 10:39 PM
  #745
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Didn't Holmgren say he could get Carle for below market value?

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07-04-2012, 10:46 PM
  #746
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there is no doubt that our defense is worse without him (as of right now anyway...could still find a replacement)
When Carle came here 4 years ago, he had been dumped by two other teams and was considered overpaid. He was 23 at the time and the Flyers asked him to simplify his game and focus on defense. He got better as the year went on and quickly turned his career around. Luke Schenn has been dumped by Toronto. He is 22. Is it that much of a leap to think he to can turn around his career here this year?

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07-04-2012, 10:47 PM
  #747
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Didn't Holmgren say he could get Carle for below market value?
I think he missed the boat on what market value was going to be this year. This market is on steroids. At the time, most teams were thought to be operating under a 65 million dollar cap.

It was a stupid thing to say as we've all discussed, but it's easy to see how much has changed since that stupid comment was made.

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07-04-2012, 10:48 PM
  #748
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Didn't Holmgren say he could get Carle for below market value?
More than likely the "media" saying homer said that ? The Media LOVES starting that kind of nonsense, especially in Philly.

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07-04-2012, 10:49 PM
  #749
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By the way, on Tampa being able to have the space, if we remove Pronger from the equation, the Lightning are (currently) spending more on defense than we are. That doesn't count Bourdon and Gustafsson though, so either way the difference is negligible.

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07-04-2012, 10:50 PM
  #750
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Man Philly really gives our GM's ****. They sign somebody, he is over paid! They don't sign somebody, why didn't he over pay for him! He really might have the hardest job in the city right now. Every single move he makes must be perfect unless the fans disagree with it. Also Carle isn't worth what he got paid and for how long. That was a good job by homer not over paying for his services.

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