HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

v20: off-season '12| In: Lowry, Fields, Valanciunas, Ross...Out: J Johnson, Bayless

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-05-2012, 12:01 AM
  #101
Dark Knight
#WeTheNorth
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leaf Land
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
The fact of the matter seems to be that players of real genuine value don't want to play here. Star players don't want to play here. Toronto is an attractive destination for European players due to the cultural diversity which is fine, but this is a star driven league. Based on the way teams who win have been constructed, the trend seems to be this: you can win if your best player is European. I can't think of one successful team (or another team, period) whose top 2-3 players are European.

Something needs to change. There either needs to be a hard cap installed, or the Raptors have to re-locate to an attractive American city. There are two main reasons a sports team remains poor as long as the Raptors have been: either A) poor management (trades, drafting) or B) inability to attract high level free agents.
If the Raptors were close to contending, I think Nash would have loved to play here. He knows there is absolutely no chance he gets a title shot with Toronto. No chance!

Would you sacrifice a chance at the title, knowing you have 2, maybe 3 years left tops, only to play for a team that happens to be in your country of birth? I won't.

__________________
http://hfboards.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=19868&dateline=128642  9216
Dark Knight is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:04 AM
  #102
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
If the Raptors were close to contending, I think Nash would have loved to play here. He knows there is absolutely no chance he gets a title shot with Toronto. No chance!

Would you sacrifice a chance at the title, knowing you have 2, maybe 3 years left tops, only to play for a team that happens to be in your country of birth? I won't.
I have absolutely no hard feelings towards Nash at all. I'd have liked for him to sign here, but a class act like him can go to the Lakers and win a title, and I certainly hope he does. All I'm saying is that I think the Raptors operate from a marked disadvantage on a couple fronts and I'm wondering if re-location isn't in this team's future. The Raptors are not the Leafs. Consistent annual losing will not be tolerated by the fan base.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:07 AM
  #103
Dark Knight
#WeTheNorth
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leaf Land
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
I have absolutely no hard feelings towards Nash at all. I'd have liked for him to sign here, but a class act like him can go to the Lakers and win a title, and I certainly hope he does. All I'm saying is that I think the Raptors operate from a marked disadvantage on a couple fronts and I'm wondering if re-location isn't in this team's future. The Raptors are not the Leafs. Consistent annual losing will not be tolerated by the fan base.
There is no way the Raptors are locating so if you're concerned on that note, don't be. Raptors are one of the higher revenue generating teams in this league despite the struggles they've had.

We're only an undesireable location to play because we're not an established playoff team yet. This is a wonderful city, a city NBA players love, but NBA players hate losing, unless a team significantly overpays.

Dark Knight is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:09 AM
  #104
TrainTracks
Rookie User
 
TrainTracks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Queen & Roncy
Posts: 106
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miester View Post
He retired in 2007 after giving like 15 years to the canadian basketball program. If he hadn't retired he wouldn't be in the NBA anymore. He wouldn't have been a 38 MVP (that 3rd one should have been his). He walked off crying at the 2000 olympics blaming himself for letting the country down. Nash is already fine in Canada. And most canadians would tell you they'd rather see him win a title then try and salvage the Raps to squeak into the playoffs
Oh please he didnt want to play in 2007 because he didnt want to risk injuring himself and not getting another fat contract. What a hero.

TrainTracks is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:11 AM
  #105
topched
Registered User
 
topched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
There is no way the Raptors are locating so if you're concerned on that note, don't be. Raptors are one of the higher revenue generating teams in this league despite the struggles they've had.

We're only an undesireable location to play because we're not an established playoff team yet. This is a wonderful city, a city NBA players love, but NBA players hate losing, unless a team significantly overpays.
We had no problem attracting talent when we had players like VC and for a time Bosh.

I mentioned OKC before as an example as a team who has been involved in a number of rumours to land big name players (although they haven't yet as it doesn't make much sense for them).

We need elite talent and a winning culture and players will come. This isn't something that gets built overnight with one or two big free agent signings. Its a long term project.

topched is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:13 AM
  #106
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainTracks View Post
Oh please he didnt want to play in 2007 because he didnt want to risk injuring himself and not getting another fat contract. What a hero.
Let's not be naive here. Players play in the NBA for their livelihood. They play for country for the honor. Nash's concerns, at least as far as basketball goes, should always have been NBA team first, national team second. I have no issue with the way he's done things. He put in a ton of years with Canada's basketball program as a player. He's entitled to make the decisions he made.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:14 AM
  #107
Dark Knight
#WeTheNorth
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Leaf Land
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,567
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
We had no problem attracting talent when we had players like VC and for a time Bosh.

I mentioned OKC before as an example as a team who has been involved in a number of rumours to land big name players (although they haven't yet as it doesn't make much sense for them).

We need elite talent and a winning culture and players will come. This isn't something that gets built overnight with one or two big free agent signings. Its a long term project.
You need to luck out in lottery.

You're not winning in the NBA without a franchise player, and with the way the draft is, you don't get one unless you pick in the top 5.

I think we have a potential franchise player in Jonas Valanciunas, a franchise player who plays a position where having a franchise player is incredibly lucky.

Dark Knight is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:14 AM
  #108
Buckleys
Registered User
 
Buckleys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
We had no problem attracting talent when we had players like VC and for a time Bosh.

I mentioned OKC before as an example as a team who has been involved in a number of rumours to land big name players (although they haven't yet as it doesn't make much sense for them).

We need elite talent and a winning culture and players will come. This isn't something that gets built overnight with one or two big free agent signings. Its a long term project.
This his the nail on the head IMO.

We're in the right direction, going to be growing pains but we will get there.

Buckleys is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:16 AM
  #109
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
We had no problem attracting talent when we had players like VC and for a time Bosh.

I mentioned OKC before as an example as a team who has been involved in a number of rumours to land big name players (although they haven't yet as it doesn't make much sense for them).

We need elite talent and a winning culture and players will come. This isn't something that gets built overnight with one or two big free agent signings. Its a long term project.
I'm not being argumentative here, but how many truly "elite" players have ever played for Toronto as a result of signing here of their own free will? Let's go down the list quickly:

Damon Stoudamire - drafted
Tracy McGrady - drafted
Vince Carter - drafted
Chris Bosh - drafted
Shawn Marion - trade (although elite is a term that I wouldn't really assign to him)

Those are just the ones that spring to mind.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:23 AM
  #110
Hyperglide
Registered User
 
Hyperglide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
I quit being a Raptor fan. Eff this. No Nash, Dragic, Lowry, Lin (no hope)


Quote:
Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine
Going online now: Suns move quickly after Steve Nash trade and strike four-year deal with Goran Dragic worth $34 million, sources tell ESPN
Fire BC immediately.

Hyperglide is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:26 AM
  #111
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Michael Beasley to PHX at 18M for 3 years.
lol. Beasley sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
I'm not being argumentative here, but how many truly "elite" players have ever played for Toronto as a result of signing here of their own free will? Let's go down the list quickly:

Damon Stoudamire - drafted
Tracy McGrady - drafted
Vince Carter - drafted
Chris Bosh - drafted
Shawn Marion - trade (although elite is a term that I wouldn't really assign to him)

Those are just the ones that spring to mind.
Marion was the return for the trade that shipped out Jermaine O'Neal. And he was only in Toronto for those last few weeks of the season.

__________________

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent."

Sorry, I am not taking signature requests at this time.
The Nemesis is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:27 AM
  #112
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,698
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperglide View Post
I quit being a Raptor fan. Eff this. No Nash, Dragic, Lowry, Lin (no hope)




Fire BC immediately.
In theory, we could still make a run at Lowry, but it would take Houston successfully poaching Lin for it to happen.

I don't hold out much hope though.

The Nemesis is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:28 AM
  #113
topched
Registered User
 
topched's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
I'm not being argumentative here, but how many truly "elite" players have ever played for Toronto as a result of signing here of their own free will? Let's go down the list quickly:

Damon Stoudamire - drafted
Tracy McGrady - drafted
Vince Carter - drafted
Chris Bosh - drafted
Shawn Marion - trade (although elite is a term that I wouldn't really assign to him)

Those are just the ones that spring to mind.
In terms of high profile guys who played with the Raps

Hedo Turkoglu (this was a big deal, despite his performance, he was highly touted before he stepped on the court )

Antonio Davis (all-star, trade as well)

Hakeem Olajuwon (*slightly* similar to what Nash would have been just now, although Olajuwon had declined more severely then Nash)

Muggsy Bogues (another higher profile guy who was entering the twighlight of his career)

JO (trade, obviously didn't workout, but this was a big deal at the time as well).




BUT Here is my major argument:

At one point, the raptors were in possession of VC, Marcus Camby, Damon Stoudemire, Chris Bosh, Tracy MacGrady and Alvin Williams. All NBA all-stars at or going into their prime. The culture was different back then, but now with the Raptors ability to spend and the trend of putting together "super teams" I don't think we would have been forced to trade players like we were. 10 years ago TMAC and VC couldn't play together, now thats exactly the same as having Wade and Lebron or KD and Westbrook on the same team. Similar with being able to retain players like Camby and Stoudemire and VC and Bosh.

This franchise has had bad luck, Tmac wanting to be a star on his own, Alvin suffering a career ending injury, not being able to move Bosh, and riddled by some devastatingly poor management decisions, Trading Camby for Oakley to make a "run", drafting Hoffa, moving significant pieces like Roy Hibbert to chase a dream of getting another star JO-Marion-Barbosa.

There is HOPE, despite how bleak things look.


Last edited by topched: 07-05-2012 at 12:37 AM.
topched is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:29 AM
  #114
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
lol. Beasley sucks.



Marion was the return for the trade that shipped out Jermaine O'Neal. And he was only in Toronto for those last few weeks of the season.
Which makes that list even worse for the Raptors. Scratch Marion off that list and all you have are four players that can realistically be called "elite" that have played for this franchise.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:30 AM
  #115
TrainTracks
Rookie User
 
TrainTracks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Queen & Roncy
Posts: 106
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorriPage View Post
Let's not be naive here. Players play in the NBA for their livelihood. They play for country for the honor. Nash's concerns, at least as far as basketball goes, should always have been NBA team first, national team second. I have no issue with the way he's done things. He put in a ton of years with Canada's basketball program as a player. He's entitled to make the decisions he made.
Youre really going to say that his "livelihood" was in question? Like if he never got another contract hes going to be broke, living on a bench at city hall? Nash already had more money in 2007 then 99% of us would have in 10 lifetimes of working 9-5 and you want me to cry for him argentina?

Nash showed a lack of character for refusing to play for Canada in the olympics. Sure he's intitled to make the decision but I'm not going to pat him on the back for being a selfish Dbag. It's once every 4 years for godsake. You suck it up for your country and your fans in your country.

Now he has shown a lack of character by refusing a perfectly acceptable offer from the Raptors and deciding he would be better off riding Kobes coat tails to a championship. How could you even feel proud of a championship like that? That's what I've never understood about players who join teams just to win championships. Nash is a selfish *****, I'm done with him and done talking about him.

TrainTracks is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:31 AM
  #116
The Nemesis
Global Moderator
Semper Tyrannus
 
The Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Langley, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,698
vCash: 500
Nash deal fallout article from ESPN, including a brief bit on what it means for Toronto:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...look-team-kobe

Quote:
And then there are the Raptors. Whoa, the poor Raptors. Toronto went for sentiment over logic, prioritized Nash over Dragic and Jeremy Lin, and badly misread Nash's desires. Patriotic sentiment was nice and all, but it wasn't going to put Toronto any closer to his kids no matter how much the Raptors offered.After 48 hours went by and the Raptors couldn't get a yes, they might have got a bad feeling about this, but instead they doubled down by offering Landry Fields a ridiculous three-year, $20 million deal. The idea was to blow up any sign-and-trade deals the Knicks could offer Phoenix, with the assumption that the Knicks were the Raptors' main competitor, but New York had another one lined up involving Iman Shumpert anyway. Meanwhile, Toronto never saw the Laker deal coming.
Now, at least, they won't blow a huge pile on Nash, but there's the little matter of the abysmal Fields contract -- presumably the Knicks will be laughing too hard to bother matching -- which will likely require them to lose Jose Calderon (to amnesty) and Jerryd Bayless (by renouncing his rights) to sign any other free agent of consequence.
Nonetheless, this probably saved the Raptors from a costly diversion on their road to rebuilding, and their books are clean enough that Fields' contract won't ruin their equally impressive cap-space hoard for next summer. Toronto can resume the slow, boring process of building a sustainable winner, an area where it has already made considerable progress. Meanwhile, one hopes this setback will discourage the Raptors from chasing shortcuts so enthusiastically next summer.

The Nemesis is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 12:34 AM
  #117
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainTracks View Post
Youre really going to say that his "livelihood" was in question? Like if he never got another contract hes going to be broke, living on a bench at city hall? Nash already had more money in 2007 then 99% of us would have in 10 lifetimes of working 9-5 and you want me to cry for him argentina?
I meant livelihood purely in terms of how they make a living. I wasn't saying he'd be broke or would have trouble paying his bills. All I'm saying is that as a player gets older, the NBA contract becomes more important and playing in the Olympics not so much. That's just the way it goes, like it or not. I understand what you're saying, and I respect your argument, but I just don't agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainTracks View Post
Nash showed a lack of character for refusing to play for Canada in the olympics. Sure he's intitled to make the decision but I'm not going to pat him on the back for being a selfish Dbag. It's once every 4 years for godsake. You suck it up for your country and your fans in your country.
Like I said, I understand where you're coming from. It's a legitimate stance. I just don't quite agree with it.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 01:14 AM
  #118
Prophet Kadri
Registered User
 
Prophet Kadri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,586
vCash: 500
Bryan Collangelo needs to be fired. Not only fired but made a fool of by MLSE, booed by Toronto Fans, laughed out of the city by the media, spurned by the players, ignored by the coach.

This is the biggest offseason failure I have ever seen. First we draft Ross for the sole reason of picking up Nash, in the process we rejected a supposed deal for Lowry for #8. Next we offer a canadian Icon to be the next famous big thing to come to the city and offer him 11 million more than the winning bid. When we are not sure he will sign Collangelo signs Landry fields to a retarded contract to block a sign and trade. So what happens is Nash goes somewhere else and Mr. Bryan "Full Retard" Collangelo is stuck with a bunch of crap that we only did to sign an old canadian.

If this man continues to run our organization after being proven a buffon, a buffon who thinks basketball is a game of chess, then I think we will eventually be relocated because no fan can stand for this bull****.

Prophet Kadri is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 01:26 AM
  #119
Hyperglide
Registered User
 
Hyperglide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness View Post
Bryan Collangelo needs to be fired. Not only fired but made a fool of by MLSE, booed by Toronto Fans, laughed out of the city by the media, spurned by the players, ignored by the coach.

This is the biggest offseason failure I have ever seen. First we draft Ross for the sole reason of picking up Nash, in the process we rejected a supposed deal for Lowry for #8. Next we offer a canadian Icon to be the next famous big thing to come to the city and offer him 11 million more than the winning bid. When we are not sure he will sign Collangelo signs Landry fields to a retarded contract to block a sign and trade. So what happens is Nash goes somewhere else and Mr. Bryan "Full Retard" Collangelo is stuck with a bunch of crap that we only did to sign an old canadian.

If this man continues to run our organization after being proven a buffon, a buffon who thinks basketball is a game of chess, then I think we will eventually be relocated because no fan can stand for this bull****.
+1

I bet you Brian Burke is ecstatic. I think Colangelo finally has surpassed him as public enemy number 1. The entire last couple of weeks have been a travesty. I bet you he was just riding on his daddies coattails in phoenix and road those laurels all the way to the bank and took advantage of the dumbasses at MLSE and Peddy. Ugh..

Hyperglide is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 01:28 AM
  #120
Cloned
Sexy Genesis
 
Cloned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 21,635
vCash: 500
Yeah, have to admit, Colangelo outsmarted himself, and the team will pay dearly.

__________________

Sig AND X-mas avatar courtesy of The Nemesis

"Pull yourself together!" - Solid Snake to Otacon, multiple times in the series
Cloned is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 01:37 AM
  #121
Hyperglide
Registered User
 
Hyperglide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Calderon is ecstatic:



Too late to wallow in self-pity now:


Hyperglide is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 01:37 AM
  #122
MorriPage
Registered User
 
MorriPage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Earth
Country: Canada
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
I guess the best we can hope for is that Colangelo is tarred and feathered by fans to the point where ownership decides they have no choice but to let him go. At that point, we'll get another G.M. who will most likely want to start from scratch and put his stamp on the team. Realistically, we're probably looking at around 2017, maybe 2018 before this team even approaches NBA relevance.

MorriPage is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 06:43 AM
  #123
c_mak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo
Country: Canada
Posts: 752
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to c_mak
I am so sick of all the Nash Love. Here is a guy who stopped playing for his country and then went on to win the NBA MVP twice. If any super star hockey player made that choice when it came to the Olympics they would be skewered. Nash had a chance to come home to Canada and build a legacy for himself and he chooses the Lakers! No hard feelings screw that, Steve Nash has done the choir boy thing too many times when it comes to representing Canada. HE could have helped save a franchise instead he went to the evil empire of the Lakers. My hope is Kobe ****s him in the ass

c_mak is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 07:56 AM
  #124
Transplanted Caper
Registered User
 
Transplanted Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Internet Underbelly
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,680
vCash: 500
I've written this a few times, but the notion that the issue is the market is easily dispelled with evidence. The issue is the team has been terrible for about two-thirds of its existence.

1. One star player, ONE, left when the team was on the upswing. That was McGrady. The others who left, either through FA or trade demands - Stoudamire, Bosh, Carter, all left when the team was in the tank.

2. The two most successful players in franchise history, Carter and Bosh, both re-signed here as RFAs when the team was good. Carter signed a six year extension here when he was arguably the most marketable player on the planet.

3. When the team was good players such as Antonio Davis and Hakeem Olajuwon wanted to come here. Davis arrived via trade and immediately signed a contract extension. Olajuwaon, while in severe decline, still was a name and could have chosen to go anywhere. He chose Toronto.

4. In his post-playing career, Stoudamire has been quoted as saying he underrated Toronto as a market while he was here, and that some of the other places he played didn't match up with Toronto in terms of market/fan interest.

Win, and it solves everything. The Raptors have been managed horribly for most of their existence. In the brief periods of decency, Toronto is a draw. It will never be LA, Boston, New York or Miami, but neither will 2/3 of the teams in the league. Win, and the Raptors are right at the top of that group of 20+ teams that need to win to attract FAs and keep stars.

Transplanted Caper is offline  
Old
07-05-2012, 08:00 AM
  #125
thatshype
Registered User
 
thatshype's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,698
vCash: 500
Simply to play the devil's advocate...

While everybody says the team needs do the Oklahoma City thing and suck bad enough to draft higher in the lottery, nobody seems to remember what happened to Portland. Portland basically went through the exact thing the Thunder did, and have absolutely nothing to show for it now.

2005: 3rd overall pick (Deron Williams) traded to Jazz for 6th overall pick (Martell Webster), also drafted 27th overall (Linus Kleiza
2006: Had the worse record of all but lost the lottery and picked 6th overall (Brandon Roy). Traded for 2nd overall pick (Lamarcus Aldridge). Also drafted 30th (Joel Freeland) and 31st (James White)
2007: 1st overall pick (Greg Oden)

Of all the players they drafted in 3 years of being one of the WORST teams in basketball, only Lamarcus Aldridge remains on their roster now. Granted he's a very valuable commodity, but the history shows that Portland tried to do the "Oklahoma"-model build before the Thunder did it, and failed miserably.


If the Raps "tank" and go for top picks, becoming the Trailblazers is just as likely as becoming the Thunder.

thatshype is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.