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MTL/DET - Markov

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Old
07-04-2012, 11:55 PM
  #101
FlyingKostitsyn
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
Brendan Smith who was a very late first-rounder has the potential to become a number one defenceman; much brighter future than quite a few players drafted ahead of him in 2007.

A 2nd round pick by an experienced and learned scouting staff is worth more than a defenceman who is made of glass and has only played 65 games in the past three years...
Habs fans know second round success very well. In fact the Habs have produced more NHLers than the Wings since 2000 so no need to be patronizing.

Still saying Markov is only worth a mid to late 2nd rounder is completely ridiculous. Any player picked in the 2nd round has a fairly high chance to bust and an extremely small chance to be as good as Markov is, even post injury. If they do it won't be before many years (for Detroit probably 10, considering they usually keep their prospects in the farm so long that people forget about them).

Look at the situation rationally :

Markov had never missed significant time before 09 when he was accidentally cut by a skate and missed the first half of the season, only to make a quick recovery considering the gravity of the injury. Thats not a ''injury prone'' type injury.

In the Playoffs Matt Cooke throws him on the boards, he breaks his leg. The next year, he comes back too early, gets kneed and misses the rest of the season plus nearly the entire next year (we're in 2012 now). In the meantime he finally and successfully underwent surgery and went on to a full recovery. He was not rushed this time, since the Habs had nothing to gain rushing him due to a catastrophic season, and he's 100% now after a summer of resting.

He's not a Salo type of guy, he's never had injury problems before that knee and its been fixed. Sure, he probably won't skate as well and it will be more vulnerable but its not like he's not fragile by any means.

I'm not even trying to sell him, in fact I hope they keep him because he wouldn't get close to his value in a trade right now. This ridiculous thread proves it. Markov would be absolutely amazing on the Wings tho.

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07-04-2012, 11:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Check out the 20-30 picks since the lockout.

Yes, Tatar was a good 2nd round pick, though he still hasn't played in the NHL so we don't really know how much he'll translate. But I can find a few 2nd round picks as good if not better if I look at just about every team's recent drafts. Who has Detroit drafted since the lockout comparable to John Carlson? Ryan O'Reilly? Adam Henrique? Claude Giroux? Dmitry Orlov? I can throw a good deal of names like that for just about every team.

Most teams have still been better at drafting than Detroit since the lockout.
The amount of players drafted by the Red Wings who have been allowed to develop in their system, and then made an immediate impact at the NHL level when given their chance is what separates them from everyone else. This goes back to 1989.

Howard, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader etc. along with the group of prospects they have now is an impressive drafting record.

They make excellent use of just about every single pick they make.

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07-05-2012, 12:05 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
The amount of players drafted by the Red Wings who have been allowed to develop in their system, and then made an immediate impact at the NHL level when given their chance is what separates them from everyone else. This goes back to 1989.

Howard, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader etc. along with the group of prospects they have now is an impressive drafting record.

They make excellent use of just about every single pick they make.
Like McCollum and Ferraro? Even Sheahan is meh compared to those who went right before and after him.

All the impact players from that group, Helm aside, were drafted a really long time ago. The fact that they let them spend 5/6 years in the minors AHL/if they have to helps out a lot. You can develop just about any prospect who has some NHL promise into an Abdelkader/Emmerton with that much attention. Most teams have their share of guys like that developed over a period of 5/6 years. Much more bluechippers than Detroit has managed since the lockout though.

If I need someone to run a draft for me Detroit's present management is one of the last places I turn to unless it's Hakan giving advice on late falling players from Sweden. Last 7 drafts don't lie.

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07-05-2012, 12:10 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
The amount of players drafted by the Red Wings who have been allowed to develop in their system, and then made an immediate impact at the NHL level when given their chance is what separates them from everyone else. This goes back to 1989.

Howard, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen (a 25yr old when he was drafted, found but not develloped by the wings), Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader etc. along with the group of prospects they have now is an impressive drafting record.

They make excellent use of just about every single pick they make.
The only real blue chip awesome prospects that were produced in the 2000s seem to be Kronwall, Franzen, Howard and Filpulla, who seems to be finally breaking out (having breached the impressive 40pts barrer finally). None of these players are superstars, just very solid players.

What have the rest done? Helm is a nice player and so is Ericsson and the other more obscure ones I'm sure but not much more so than the hundreds other nice players produced by other NHL teams.

The Wings have done good at the draft considering they pick late but they haven't been mind blowing in the least. The cups were won by the 1990s russian squad, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The 2000s guys were support at best and a lot of the guys you are raving about have accomplished nothing yet and often barely played at NHL level.

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07-05-2012, 12:11 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
Verbal diarrhea. Nothing more than cowardice in your part simply because you've backtracked and don't have a legitimate rebuttal, as well as making assumptions about which teams I follow.
Markov is entering this season (assumed) healthy. A healthy Markov has a spot on pretty much every team in the league. A healthy Markov is worth a lot more than a late second round pick.

A team looking for help on the blue line with cap space to spare, would be foolish to not gamble a 2nd rounder as Markov's cap hit is palatable, and he is off the books if he is injured.

Of course, we have no reason to move him, and certainly wouldn't do it for a #50-60 pick.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 07-05-2012 at 08:41 AM. Reason: not needed
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07-05-2012, 12:12 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Like McCollum and Ferraro? Even Sheahan is meh compared to those who went right before and after him.

All the impact players from that group, Helm aside, were drafted a really long time ago. The fact that they let them spend 5/6 years in the minors AHL/if they have to helps out a lot. You can develop just about any prospect into an Abdelkader/Emmerton with that much attention. Most teams have their share of guys like that developed over a period of 5/6 years. Much more bluechippers than Detroit has managed since the lockout though.

If I need someone to run a draft for me Detroit's present management is one of the last places I turn to unless it's Hakan giving advice on late falling players from Sweden. Last 7 drafts don't lie.
Thomas McCollum is still a young goaltender, they take much more time to develop.

Fact is, Detroit keeps their prospects, and they end up being effective roster players. That's not even up for debate. I personally can't think of many teams that have had that degree of success in recent history.

You don't have over 20 straight years of regular season and post-season success without great drafting and development.

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07-05-2012, 12:16 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Markov is entering this season (assumed) healthy. A healthy Markov has a spot on pretty much every team in the league. A healthy Markov is worth a lot more than a late second round pick.

A team looking for help on the blue line with cap space to spare, would be foolish to not gamble a 2nd rounder as Markov's cap hit is palatable, and he is off the books if he is injured.

Of course, we have no reason to move him, and certainly wouldn't do it for a #50-60 pick.
"Assumed" healthy huh? You mean like last year, and the year before that, and before that?

Your entire argument hinges on the desperate notion that a guy who hasn't even played 82 games in the past 3 seasons COMBINED, is going to be healthy.

Quite a gamble considering what the Red Wings are capable of with a #40-60 pick.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 07-05-2012 at 08:41 AM. Reason: qep
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07-05-2012, 12:17 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
"Assumed" healthy huh? You mean like last year, and the year before that, and before that?

Your entire argument hinges on the desperate notion that a guy who hasn't even played 82 games in the past 3 seasons COMBINED, is going to be healthy.

Quite a gamble considering what the Red Wings are capable of with a #40-60 pick.
Quite a gamble anytime to trade picks for regular season success.

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07-05-2012, 12:20 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
Thomas McCollum is still a young goaltender, they take much more time to develop.

Fact is, Detroit keeps their prospects, and they end up being effective roster players. That's not even up for debate. I personally can't think of many teams that have had that degree of success in recent history.

You don't have over 20 straight years of regular season and post-season success without great drafting and development.
Except we're talking about their recent drafts. I'm not disputing that they did a good job in 1989 or with Datsyuk and Zetterberg but that was a long time ago. The players they have in their system don't show anywhere near those abilities. Smith and Tatar are the only ones drafted since the lockout that show strong top 6/top 4 promise.

McCollum is a dime a dozen player barring a completely unexpected development, as are most of these players. If you redo that draft you don't pick him anywhere near he was picked. If you compare Detroit's post-lockout drafts to those of just about any other team you'll find them underwhelming.

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07-05-2012, 12:22 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Quite a gamble anytime to trade picks for regular season success.
And it's a gamble that a competent and well managed organization would refuse to make.

Besides, there is no regular season success to be had here. Nothing but disclosing injury reports to the media on a daily basis.

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07-05-2012, 12:24 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
And it's a gamble that a competent and well managed organization would refuse to make.

Besides, there is no regular season success to be had here. Nothing but disclosing injury reports to the media on a daily basis.
If Markov doesn't play 60 games this year I will eat a postage stamp.

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07-05-2012, 12:26 AM
  #112
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Except we're talking about their recent drafts. I'm not disputing that they did a good job in 1989 or with Datsyuk and Zetterberg but that was a long time ago. The players they have in their system don't show anywhere near those abilities. Smith and Tatar are the only ones drafted since the lockout that show strong top 6/top 4 promise.

McCollum is a dime a dozen player barring a completely unexpected development, as are most of these players. If you redo that draft you don't pick him anywhere near he was picked. If you compare Detroit's post-lockout drafts to those of just about any other team you'll find them underwhelming.
Franzen, Helm, Filppula weren't exactly drafted a long time ago.

I think Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Kindl, and Jarnkrok are also promising prospects.

Was Thomas McCollum a great draft pick? Absolutely not, I simply don't think he's a bust however.

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07-05-2012, 12:27 AM
  #113
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If Markov doesn't play 60 games this year I will eat a postage stamp.
60? You're setting yourself up for failure. I counter-offer with 30.

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07-05-2012, 12:30 AM
  #114
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60? You're setting yourself up for failure. I counter-offer with 30.
So you will eat a stamp if he plays 31 games?

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07-05-2012, 12:35 AM
  #115
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I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. As a franchise, where do you think the Wings rank with respect to drafting? I know they have had a lot of late picks because of their strong regular seasons, but I would still have to say that they are out of the top 10, which makes them...average.
Their current top-10 prospect pool does say otherwise.

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07-05-2012, 12:35 AM
  #116
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Franzen, Helm, Filppula weren't exactly drafted a long time ago.

I think Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Kindl, and Jarnkrok are also promising prospects.

Was Thomas McCollum a great draft pick? Absolutely not, I simply don't think he's a bust however.
7,8 and 10 years ago is a pretty long time when you're evaluating the effectiveness of management at running current drafts.

I'm not saying those aren't promising prospects, but every team has that kind of farm.

Look at the players the capitals have drafted since the lockout after the first 20 picks for example.

Johansson
Kuznetsov
Eakin
Perreault
Galiev
Carlson
Orlov
Varlamov
Neuvirth
Holtby

Or, say, Montreal, whose later drafting is average-above average

Latendresse
SKost
D'Agostini
White
Pacioretty
Subban
Kristo
Tinordi
Gallagher

That's a good deal more NHL regulars/high impact players/prospects of around Kindl/Pulkkinen level than Detroit. And that's discounting their early picks, so it's based on less picks than Detroit would have available for similar slots.

I don't mind giving Holland credit where credit is due, but everyone acts like he walks on water and refuses to call him on very obvious things such as his less than stellar recent drafting history.

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07-05-2012, 12:38 AM
  #117
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So you will eat a stamp if he plays 31 games?
I'll eat an entire tub of poutine if he plays 31 games. I hate poutine...

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07-05-2012, 12:39 AM
  #118
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Their current top-10 prospect pool does say otherwise.
Fair enough, the Detroit drafting history is so far from the point of this thread anyways.

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07-05-2012, 12:42 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
7,8 and 10 years ago is a pretty long time when you're evaluating the effectiveness of management at running current drafts.

I'm not saying those aren't promising prospects, but every team has that kind of farm.

Look at the players the capitals have drafted since the lockout after the first 20 picks for example.

Johansson
Kuznetsov
Eakin
Perreault
Galiev
Carlson
Orlov
Varlamov
Neuvirth
Holtby

Or, say, Montreal, whose later drafting is average-above average

Latendresse
SKost
D'Agostini
White
Pacioretty
Subban
Kristo
Tinordi
Gallagher

That's a good deal more NHL regulars/high impact players/prospects of around Kindl/Pulkkinen level than Detroit. And that's discounting their early picks, so it's based on less picks than Detroit would have available for similar slots.

I don't mind giving Holland credit where credit is due, but everyone acts like he walks on water and refuses to call him on very obvious things such as his less than stellar recent drafting history.
Detroit drafts lower than both of those teams on a consistent basis.

Add Ryan Sproul, Xavier Ouelett, and Petr Mrazek to the aforementioned prospects and I think Detroit has a superb prospect pool. I personally can't remember a year where Detroit has been thin in terms of prospects and failed to display patience in terms of development. It's admirable and very few teams can make such a claim.

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07-05-2012, 12:44 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. As a franchise, where do you think the Wings rank with respect to drafting? I know they have had a lot of late picks because of their strong regular seasons, but I would still have to say that they are out of the top 10, which makes them...average.
Um, my point was Red Wings won a cup, then went to the finals with their "average" drafted players.

Since the last 3 years, they went from top 25 to top 7 (according to a report awhile ago). I don't have the link.

That's above average, especially since they don't get early first round picks.

Wait for Smith, you're gonna be impressed. The kid is a physical monster and a scoring machine.

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07-05-2012, 12:44 AM
  #121
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that's kinda lowballing for someone who'd be your best player


This has been a hard day as a Wings fan, but this comment just made my night. Winner Winner; Chicken Dinner.

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07-05-2012, 12:51 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
7,8 and 10 years ago is a pretty long time when you're evaluating the effectiveness of management at running current drafts.
Ken Holland traded lots of drafts picks pre-cap era. That's why it seems DRWs are going through a dry spell. Most of those picks were traded away. Plus, some prospects were traded and are doing well with other clubs.

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07-05-2012, 07:16 AM
  #123
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Markov has no trade value right now. The Habs are better off just waiting for him to get healthy and see how it goes.
This is probably closest to the truth. Markov is a fantastic player but I guess the injuries worry people too much. One injury was a freak accident that could have happened to any player (ankle tendon cut by the skate of Carey Price when he was making a save). The first knee injury happened and the second one happened because he came back too soon, IMO.

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07-05-2012, 08:02 AM
  #124
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The only real blue chip awesome prospects that were produced in the 2000s seem to be Kronwall, Franzen, Howard and Filpulla, who seems to be finally breaking out (having breached the impressive 40pts barrer finally). None of these players are superstars, just very solid players.

What have the rest done? Helm is a nice player and so is Ericsson and the other more obscure ones I'm sure but not much more so than the hundreds other nice players produced by other NHL teams.

The Wings have done good at the draft considering they pick late but they haven't been mind blowing in the least. The cups were won by the 1990s russian squad, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The 2000s guys were support at best and a lot of the guys you are raving about have accomplished nothing yet and often barely played at NHL level.
Once again wondering as nobody anwsered me the first time but you're acting like the habs have created a huge amount of studs at the NHL level in the past 10 years. Can you list some of theses studs for me please?

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07-05-2012, 08:21 AM
  #125
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give us brendan smith and he's yours.
Keep him.

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