HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Should Burke have waited to trade schenn?

View Poll Results: If we waited, would screen have fetched us more assets
Yes! Schenn would have gotten us a better package than JVR 11 7.14%
No, we would gave gotten the same or less 143 92.86%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-05-2012, 09:45 AM
  #1
goonx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 773
vCash: 500
Should Burke have waited to trade schenn?

With the UFA so thin this year on D should Burke have waited to trade schenn once carle and suter got signed?

Once these UFA got signed, Schenn is arguably the next big name out there and could fetch a bit more via Trade.

Thoughts?


Last edited by goonx: 07-05-2012 at 02:42 PM.
goonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:07 AM
  #2
IBeL13f
Registered User
 
IBeL13f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,850
vCash: 500
I don't think we ever would have gotten a better return on him straight-up than we did.

IBeL13f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:09 AM
  #3
mokspeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
I don't think we ever would have gotten a better return on him straight-up than we did.
Agreed - Schenn's value was at an all time low. Unless they packaged him up with some other pieces for a #1C, he wouldn't have gotten better value. It was a pure hockey trade to fit organization needs - and in addition to that, both players were underperforming and needed a fresh start.

mokspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:15 AM
  #4
Calacatz
Pak-trick!
 
Calacatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,182
vCash: 500
so when Schenn was playing well Philly fans still laughed at the thought of trading him str8 up for JVR and now we were able to cash in on the guy and you are questioning the return?

A number 5 dman was the next big name out there? He is a guy most fans gave up on and wanted traded in hopes that his draft status and potential could still be appealling and we landed a great piece in return!

Just a great hockey trade!

Calacatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:16 AM
  #5
Count Von Grabo*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Halifax
Posts: 980
vCash: 500
His trade value took a plunge this year. I'll take JVR's potential over Schenn, especially with Gardiner, Rielly, and Franson on the blueline for years to come (hopefully).

I really liked Schenn, but he was replaceable.

Count Von Grabo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:17 AM
  #6
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 61,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonx View Post
With the UFA so thin this year on D should Burke have waited to trade schenn once carle and suter got signed?

Once these UFA got signed, Schenn is arguably the next big name out there and could fetch a bit more via Trade.

Thoughts?
Yes, or they shouldn't have traded him at all but rather continued to develop him as he is only 22 and most Dmen don't even make the NHL until this time, while Luke already has 4 years under his belt. Or they could have chosen to get rid of other defenseman first among the current group if it was a numbers issue.

If the Leafs were going to trade him it should have been in a deal that returned a #1C or #1G, which is a position of need for the team.

Schenn was traded in hopes the opening on D would secure Justin Schultz, and that backfired big time on the Leafs after he signed in Edmonton. Otherwise as you say, what was the rush as it could have waited until later this summer when teams are looking for Dmen all over the league.

__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:21 AM
  #7
smitty10
Registered User
 
smitty10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,235
vCash: 500
16 no's and 0 yes'. I think you've got your answer

smitty10 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:23 AM
  #8
NewFang
Registered User
 
NewFang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,678
vCash: 500
He had to do it anyways, to try and entice Schultz. The time was right.

NewFang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:24 AM
  #9
IBeL13f
Registered User
 
IBeL13f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,850
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calacatz View Post
so when Schenn was playing well Philly fans still laughed at the thought of trading him str8 up for JVR and now we were able to cash in on the guy and you are questioning the return?

A number 5 dman was the next big name out there? He is a guy most fans gave up on and wanted traded in hopes that his draft status and potential could still be appealling and we landed a great piece in return!

Just a great hockey trade!
I believe all of those people are wrong. He's going to be so damn good. Luckily, JVR can be even better.

IBeL13f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #10
bobermay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Barrie/UofGuelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,949
vCash: 500
Thereshouldbeathirdoption...Idon'tthinkitmatters.. .

(Spacebarisnotworking,haha)

bobermay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #11
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
How much more of a return are you expecting?

mooseOAK* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:28 AM
  #12
Calacatz
Pak-trick!
 
Calacatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yes, or they shouldn't have traded him at all but rather continued to develop him as he is only 22 and most Dmen don't even make the NHL until this time, while Luke already has 4 years under his belt. Or they could have chosen to get rid of other defenseman first among the current group if it was a numbers issue.

If the Leafs were going to trade him it should have been in a deal that returned a #1C or #1G, which is a position of need for the team.

Schenn was traded in hopes the opening on D would secure Justin Schultz, and that backfired big time on the Leafs after he signed in Edmonton. Otherwise as you say, what was the rush as it could have waited until later this summer when teams are looking for Dmen all over the league.
Hey Mess
- ur 1st point - I would have had no problem keeping him either with a year to play under carlyle. even tho I am happy with trade, I still think Luke could have worked his way to being a strong 2nd pairing guy again.
- 2nd point - If Schenn was used to get Luongo I would have lost my mind!! Not many other #1 goalies out there, as for #1c we have other assets to use. Even If we could get a legit #1, I have np working with our 1st rounder next year and adding from there...
3rd point - I agree that Schultz played a potential factor in this but I also feel Burke feels confident with the debth he has as well. Rielly may impress and make the team, Franson can attract more minutes, Holzer might make a jump or Blacker... so if Philly was ready to part with JVR and he was on Burkes list then I dont blame him for Jumping..

I see Clarke Mac being moved or maybe even Lupul in the next spash. Lupes is at an all time high for value.. cap firendly with a year to give a team a chance to extend and hasn't had the best past with Carlyle. Although he gelled well with Kessel, a 1st line of Phil, JVR and #1 centre can be much more potent...

Calacatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:28 AM
  #13
Calacatz
Pak-trick!
 
Calacatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseoak View Post
how much more of a return are you expecting?
this

Calacatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:29 AM
  #14
Sonny21
Registerd User
 
Sonny21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,709
vCash: 500
That's one thing Burke deserves credit, even when players values seem to be down from previously he does not give them away and patiently waits until he gets the return he thinks it's fair.

So it's a no for me in terms of the poll.

Sonny21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:30 AM
  #15
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Schenn was traded in hopes the opening on D would secure Justin Schultz, and that backfired big time on the Leafs after he signed in Edmonton. Otherwise as you say, what was the rush as it could have waited until later this summer when teams are looking for Dmen all over the league.
No he wasn't. That would have been an ancillary selling point, but we traded Schenn to get a 23 year old winger who is probably the second most talented player on the roster next to Phil Kessel.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:31 AM
  #16
Vexxed14
Registered User
 
Vexxed14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Barrie, Ont
Posts: 4,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yes, or they shouldn't have traded him at all but rather continued to develop him as he is only 22 and most Dmen don't even make the NHL until this time, while Luke already has 4 years under his belt. Or they could have chosen to get rid of other defenseman first among the current group if it was a numbers issue.

If the Leafs were going to trade him it should have been in a deal that returned a #1C or #1G, which is a position of need for the team.

Schenn was traded in hopes the opening on D would secure Justin Schultz, and that backfired big time on the Leafs after he signed in Edmonton. Otherwise as you say, what was the rush as it could have waited until later this summer when teams are looking for Dmen all over the league.
I think it is short-sighted to believe that the only need for this club is a 1C or 1G. JVR fills another need which is potential top 6 (really potential top 3) with size. He has a higher ceiling then Schenn and has proven more to this point then Schenn.

I would agree with you 100% if they traded Schenn for an older player to fill the role JVR will.

I really don't think Schenn was moved for Schultz since this trade would have happened last year had it not been for an injury (hehe bob got it right if you all remember). Burke said at that point on McCowans show that it makes sense to make a relative lateral move in terms of potential/talent/age from a position of strength to fill a weakness. Does that mean it can only fill your biggest weakness? Does acquiring a 1C really mean anything with the team we have? Do we really think that one position so important that filling it would turn our fortunes?

There are teams with legit 1C's and 1G's that don't make the playoffs. I believe the oversimplification of our teams issues is a problem amongst fans. Yes, we need a C and a G but we also need skilled size upfront on the wings.

Vexxed14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:33 AM
  #17
number72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,890
vCash: 500
Wow. As of right now I think yes but until Burke finishes his trades it is hard to pass judgement.

The trade was from an area the team is weak in (defence or GA) to an area the team is strong in offence (GF). And one reason why holding off makes sense is the demand of defenders in NHL - Wings, Philly and Penguins all need a defenceman. And not that Schenn will fit into that level but he would be a more valuable trading piece today than when he was traded.

That said, if Burke changes up the team and unloads the overabundance of bad or mid tier players and contracts (lombo/connolly etc) so that players are not press boxed or stuffed into the AHL because there is waiver exception reason than this trade might make sense.

number72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:36 AM
  #18
Vexxed14
Registered User
 
Vexxed14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Barrie, Ont
Posts: 4,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Wow. As of right now I think yes but until Burke finishes his trades it is hard to pass judgement.

The trade was from an area the team is weak in (defence or GA) to an area the team is strong in offence (GF). And one reason why holding off makes sense is the demand of defenders in NHL - Wings, Philly and Penguins all need a defenceman. And not that Schenn will fit into that level but he would be a more valuable trading piece today than when he was traded.

That said, if Burke changes up the team and unloads the overabundance of bad or mid tier players and contracts (lombo/connolly etc) so that players are not press boxed or stuffed into the AHL because there is waiver exception reason than this trade might make sense.
I see your point but I really don't see those other teams being able to offer anything better than JVR honestly and even then Philly had backed off on wanting us to add to the deal. If it was a 'take it or leave it', I would have taken it as I don't see how a better deal could be made other than by just hoping.

You have to make the read of your staff too. If opinions changed internally of Schenns future potential, that would have a huge impact

Vexxed14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:40 AM
  #19
TheTotalPackage
Registered User
 
TheTotalPackage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
How much more of a return are you expecting?
Yup.

In fact, I believe the Leafs are the ones who got JvR at a lower price.

TheTotalPackage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:43 AM
  #20
QMJHLfollower
Heart and soul
 
QMJHLfollower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,457
vCash: 500
Yes, I would have wanted to keep him, but I'm happy with the return.

QMJHLfollower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:44 AM
  #21
Ash35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 765
vCash: 500
Schenn's game was regressing in a big way. He was looking really slow and robotic in his skating and stick work. Even in the World Championships who could just tell the Coach cringed whenever the play came near him, It's too bad cause he looked good two years ago. We got good value back and we should never draft a defencemen that high again without an offensive upside. Sometimes players mature at a young age, look so much more poised then other 18 year old's but then plateau and I think that's what might of happend to here. We will find out though.

Ash35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:44 AM
  #22
IBeL13f
Registered User
 
IBeL13f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,850
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
I think it is short-sighted to believe that the only need for this club is a 1C or 1G. JVR fills another need which is potential top 6 (really potential top 3) with size. He has a higher ceiling then Schenn and has proven more to this point then Schenn.

I would agree with you 100% if they traded Schenn for an older player to fill the role JVR will.

I really don't think Schenn was moved for Schultz since this trade would have happened last year had it not been for an injury (hehe bob got it right if you all remember). Burke said at that point on McCowans show that it makes sense to make a relative lateral move in terms of potential/talent/age from a position of strength to fill a weakness. Does that mean it can only fill your biggest weakness? Does acquiring a 1C really mean anything with the team we have? Do we really think that one position so important that filling it would turn our fortunes?

There are teams with legit 1C's and 1G's that don't make the playoffs. I believe the oversimplification of our teams issues is a problem amongst fans. Yes, we need a C and a G but we also need skilled size upfront on the wings.
Absolutely. How would adding a top-line Center or a legitimate #1 Goalie not turn around our fortunes? Our biggest problems for the past years (other than Wilson's run-and-gun system not meshing with the players Burke provided him with) have been down the middle and in net. Putting a proven PPG player between Lupul and Kessel (thus shifting Bozak to 3rd-line duties) and a top-15 goaltender in net would do wonders for this club, and the jump we would see would surprise a lot of people who believe that we really are a 5th-last-place team. Those teams that have the pieces we are missing most likely are missing pieces we already hold (like perennial 35+ goal scorers, and wing and defensive depth).

Other than that, I agree with what you were saying

IBeL13f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:45 AM
  #23
BudForLife
Registered User
 
BudForLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 365
vCash: 500
Come on. We should be grateful that we got JVR. Last season when the rumours started most people believed it would be Schenn + to get the deal done. So let's not complain about the trade. Both players are under performing and both teams are taking a risk. I hope that JVR reaches his potential and at the same time I wish Luke the best.

BudForLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:48 AM
  #24
Dayjobdave
Registered User
 
Dayjobdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTotalPackage View Post
Yup.

In fact, I believe the Leafs are the ones who got JvR at a lower price.
I'm pretty sure with Parise and Suter off the market Holmgren would not be parting with JVR today unless it was in a deal for Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan, so we should be very happy that we got him.

I like Luke. I've always liked Luke. I think he will be a good player in the league for a long time. JVR's tool-kit is significantly better. Period.

Deal may work out, it may not, but there is no doubt we moved our organizational ceiling miles ahead with the trade.

Now, if someone were to suggest that its a good time to move Franson, I may agree...

Dayjobdave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2012, 10:49 AM
  #25
Vexxed14
Registered User
 
Vexxed14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Barrie, Ont
Posts: 4,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
Absolutely. How would adding a top-line Center or a legitimate #1 Goalie not turn around our fortunes? Our biggest problems for the past years (other than Wilson's run-and-gun system not meshing with the players Burke provided him with) have been down the middle and in net. Putting a proven PPG player between Lupul and Kessel (thus shifting Bozak to 3rd-line duties) and a top-15 goaltender in net would do wonders for this club, and the jump we would see would surprise a lot of people who believe that we really are a 5th-last-place team. Those teams that have the pieces we are missing most likely are missing pieces we already hold (like perennial 35+ goal scorers, and wing and defensive depth).

Other than that, I agree with what you were saying
I know we need those roles filled but I am suggesting that we could still be like the current Anaheim rather than the championship Anaheim. 1C, MVP winger, #1 goalie, decent youth and notable D. Yet they struggle to maintain playoff positions. There is also Carolina and Montreal.

All I am saying is that getting those much needed pieces wont solve all our problems and that we can't sit around doing nothing on our other issues while we try and solve the big ones.

Vexxed14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.