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MTL/DET - Markov

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Old
07-05-2012, 08:24 AM
  #126
Patty Roy
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Markov to Detroit makes no sense. His value is too low right now based on all the injuries the past two seasons, but at the same time he's too significant to any hopes the Habs might have of climbing back into the playoffs this season that we'd just be dead in the waters if we traded him tomorrow for futures.

I think a guy like Kaberle makes more sense. He's still serviceable, and he's someone Detroit could get for cheap.

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07-05-2012, 08:28 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
Detroit doesn't have the assets. the only two players they have worth anything are both on the decline.
Really? So Filppula and a prospect wouldn't get it done?

I think you're really underestimating Detroit's team while overestimating your own.

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07-05-2012, 08:38 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Once again wondering as nobody anwsered me the first time but you're acting like the habs have created a huge amount of studs at the NHL level in the past 10 years. Can you list some of theses studs for me please?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftsearch.h...eam=MTL&supl=N

start at 98 Ribeiro, Beachemin, Markov, and Ryder
99 Matt Carkner (lol)
2001 Komisarek, Plekanec
2002 Higgins
2003 Andrei Kostitsyn, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak
2004 Chipchura, Emelin, Wyman, Grabovski, Streit
2005 Price, Latendresse, D'Agostini, Sergei Kostitsyn
2006 White (who is nothing special, but awesome.. like Helm.. dime a dozen but fan favourite)
2007 McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Weber
2008-2012 are all in development.


2003-2005+2007 would seem to blow away anything Detroit has done since the 90's

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07-05-2012, 08:40 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Really? So Filppula and a prospect wouldn't get it done?

I think you're really underestimating Detroit's team while overestimating your own.
What would we do with Filppula? You can't just trade a second liner for our top defenseman.. and i'm not underestimating.. we've all seen what detroit looks like without lidstrom.. welcome to the league Detroit Blue Jackets

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07-05-2012, 09:06 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The only real blue chip awesome prospects that were produced in the 2000s seem to be Kronwall, Franzen, Howard and Filpulla, who seems to be finally breaking out (having breached the impressive 40pts barrer finally). None of these players are superstars, just very solid players.

What have the rest done? Helm is a nice player and so is Ericsson and the other more obscure ones I'm sure but not much more so than the hundreds other nice players produced by other NHL teams.

The Wings have done good at the draft considering they pick late but they haven't been mind blowing in the least. The cups were won by the 1990s russian squad, Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The 2000s guys were support at best and a lot of the guys you are raving about have accomplished nothing yet and often barely played at NHL level.
Do you realize how thin Detroit's prospect pool was from late 90s to 2005 was? Kenny Holland traded a lots of draft picks to get players like Lang, Hasek, Schneider, Woolley and other players he traded for.

Red Wings have done a phenomenal job considering they had very few picks. They traded lots and lots of picks... why is that so hard to understand?

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07-05-2012, 09:20 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
What would we do with Filppula? You can't just trade a second liner for our top defenseman.. and i'm not underestimating.. we've all seen what detroit looks like without lidstrom.. welcome to the league Detroit Blue Jackets
I'm willing to bet the "Detroit Blue Jackets" will have more success this year than Montreal.

Are you missing the point about Markov's injury history affecting his value?

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07-05-2012, 09:25 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post

2003-2005+2007 would seem to blow away anything Detroit has done since the 90's
Again, Holland traded away gobbs of picks from 1997-2005.

Look at the 2003 NHL draft below. Notice how many picks Detroit had? They traded them away....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NHL_Entry_Draft

Why is this so hard to understand?

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07-05-2012, 09:30 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Again, Holland traded away gobbs of picks from 1997-2005.

Look at the 2003 NHL draft below. Notice how many picks Detroit had? They traded them away....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NHL_Entry_Draft

Why is this so hard to understand?
then that's why detroit has nothing left in the tank. is it that big a deal to you that your team is going to suck for a bit?

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07-05-2012, 09:30 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
I'm willing to bet the "Detroit Blue Jackets" will have more success this year than Montreal.

Are you missing the point about Markov's injury history affecting his value?
Are you missing the point that detroit has nothing to trade that is equal to his diminished value?

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07-05-2012, 09:34 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
Markov to Detroit makes no sense. His value is too low right now based on all the injuries the past two seasons, but at the same time he's too significant to any hopes the Habs might have of climbing back into the playoffs this season that we'd just be dead in the waters if we traded him tomorrow for futures.

I think a guy like Kaberle makes more sense. He's still serviceable, and he's someone Detroit could get for cheap.
Agreed and I think the Habs would be willing to take very little to get him off the books. With the forwards in Detroit I could see him being much more useful to their cause then in Montreal. Also would hate to lose Markov as I think he might have a couple more solid seasons in him.

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07-05-2012, 09:47 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
then that's why detroit has nothing left in the tank. is it that big a deal to you that your team is going to suck for a bit?
You are correct. Detroit's prospect pool was bone dry til 2010-ish. Now they are rated top 10 in the NHL, which is above average.

But I agree, unless Holland can get a top defensemen, they won't be cup contenders. They will, however, make the playoffs baring major injuries.

So if sucking means making the playoffs while they rebuild, I guess that's acceptable. Just rather they don't go Oilers, Minny, Pens type route where they tank for top picks.

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07-05-2012, 10:07 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
You are correct. Detroit's prospect pool was bone dry til 2010-ish. Now they are rated top 10 in the NHL, which is above average.

But I agree, unless Holland can get a top defensemen, they won't be cup contenders. They will, however, make the playoffs baring major injuries.

So if sucking means making the playoffs while they rebuild, I guess that's acceptable. Just rather they don't go Oilers, Minny, Pens type route where they tank for top picks.
or 80's Red Wings

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07-05-2012, 10:16 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
You are correct. Detroit's prospect pool was bone dry til 2010-ish. Now they are rated top 10 in the NHL, which is above average.

But I agree, unless Holland can get a top defensemen, they won't be cup contenders. They will, however, make the playoffs baring major injuries.

So if sucking means making the playoffs while they rebuild, I guess that's acceptable. Just rather they don't go Oilers, Minny, Pens type route where they tank for top picks.
Kinda curious, where are they rated top-10?

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07-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #139
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Kinda curious, where are they rated top-10?
Hockeysfuture.

There is an argument that they are even better than top 10 but that is where HF ranked them so it is what it is. We have prospects with star potential at the moment at every position. Strongest at forward though.

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07-05-2012, 10:40 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Hockeysfuture.

There is an argument that they are even better than top 10 but that is where HF ranked them so it is what it is. We have prospects with star potential at the moment at every position. Strongest at forward though.
While this is completely true on the prospect side of things, the big reason for it relative to other teams is how backlogged the Detroit system is compared to most with so many drafts worth of players still considered prospects.

Detroits top 25 under 25 would be far less impressive compared to the league than their prospect pool. Guys like Smith, Nyquist and maybe even Tatar would be young roster players in most systems not prospects. As it is they are players 3-4 years from their draft who haven't played significant NHL games yet.

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07-05-2012, 10:43 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by PunchDLove View Post
Detroit drafts lower than both of those teams on a consistent basis.

Add Ryan Sproul, Xavier Ouelett, and Petr Mrazek to the aforementioned prospects and I think Detroit has a superb prospect pool. I personally can't remember a year where Detroit has been thin in terms of prospects and failed to display patience in terms of development. It's admirable and very few teams can make such a claim.


Those were drafted specifically with picks comparable to what Detroit had. I didn't include Backstrom, Alzner, McDonaugh, Galchenyuk or Forsberg. Even New Jersey who drafts low themselves have been consistently better in recent history.

How many of Detroit's current prospect project to be capable of contributing anywhere near Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom or Kronwall?

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07-05-2012, 10:43 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Hockeysfuture.

There is an argument that they are even better than top 10 but that is where HF ranked them so it is what it is. We have prospects with star potential at the moment at every position. Strongest at forward though.
We could also argue that hockey's future has the Detroit's prospects rated at #15th overall but then we'd have to be dealing with reality. Obviously, this isn't going to be happening with Wings fans anytime soon.

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07-05-2012, 10:59 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Hockeysfuture.

There is an argument that they are even better than top 10 but that is where HF ranked them so it is what it is. We have prospects with star potential at the moment at every position. Strongest at forward though.
Yep that is correct, we have 7 (Nyquist,Tatar,Sheahan,Jurco,Tvrdon,Frk, Pulkinnen,Jarnkrok) forwards with top 6 potential and 4 have top line potential (Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkinnen, Jarnkrok). Obviously not all well get to their top end potential, but a couple lower guys may break out and surprise us.

On defense we have an average pool with the chance it can become above average after next year. We have 4 guys with top 4 and maybe even top pairing potential in Smith, Sproul, Jessen and Oullett. We then have a ton of guys with bottom pairing/mid pairing potential in backman,marchenko, Nedomel, etc.

Our only real area of concern is goalie and we have Howard long term so I'm not worrying. However we do have Mrazek and Paterson in the wings so while we don't have a huge number of goalies the potential for a game changing goalie is there.

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07-05-2012, 11:12 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
We could also argue that hockey's future has the Detroit's prospects rated at #15th overall but then we'd have to be dealing with reality. Obviously, this isn't going to be happening with Wings fans anytime soon.
Lol. That's an HF fail. If you navigate the website it takes you to last years preseason 2011/2012 HF rankings. Detroit was ranked 15th LAST YEAR. If you actually go through the news feed and check THIS years rankings we are 10th.

Nice job with the sarcasm troll post but Hockeysfuture just made your post look silly with their lazy site updating. No worries happens to all of us.

Here is the link you are looking for http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-1-10/

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07-05-2012, 11:18 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
If he's hurt he has no value to other teams.

If he's healthy he has waaaay to much value to us to move him.

Even with Markov we are short a top 4 D so I just don't see a deal being made as it stands.
Good one

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07-05-2012, 11:20 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Yep that is correct, we have 7 (Nyquist,Tatar,Sheahan,Jurco,Tvrdon,Frk, Pulkinnen,Jarnkrok) forwards with top 6 potential and 4 have top line potential (Nyquist, Jurco, Pulkinnen, Jarnkrok). Obviously not all well get to their top end potential, but a couple lower guys may break out and surprise us.

On defense we have an average pool with the chance it can become above average after next year. We have 4 guys with top 4 and maybe even top pairing potential in Smith, Sproul, Jessen and Oullett. We then have a ton of guys with bottom pairing/mid pairing potential in backman,marchenko, Nedomel, etc.

Our only real area of concern is goalie and we have Howard long term so I'm not worrying. However we do have Mrazek and Paterson in the wings so while we don't have a huge number of goalies the potential for a game changing goalie is there.
I agree mostly. Not counting this year:

Star Power Forwards: Nyquist (oldish), Tatar (maybe a 2nd line guy instead), Sheahan (you cant ignore his physical attributes) ,Jurco, Pulkinnen, Jarnkrok. Six guys that have carrying the torch potential. If even 2 turn out decent we will be set on forward. It is looking like all but maybe Pulkinnen will be NHL players. But again even if 2 make it we did pretty well.

Star Power Defensemen: Smith (oldish), Sproul, and Oullett. They all look like very strong prospects. Not as deep as forward but probably more talent here.

Star Power Goalies: Mrazek is really the only one. We have McCollum who looks like a bust but he has the physical attributes and was a first round pick. He may get it together later in his career. This is an area we lack depth but Mrazek is a very solid goalie. Given Howard is young it is less of a concern.


Aside from the star players we have a fair number of depth prospects. Even if you take out Smith and Nyquist (cause they are too old) we have a pretty strong pool of prospects to trade.


Consider any 2 forward prospects available and any one Defensive Prospect (other than Smith available)

A package of Nyquist, Pulkinen, Oullett would land you a pretty good player imo.

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07-05-2012, 11:56 AM
  #147
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Lol. That's an HF fail. If you navigate the website it takes you to last years preseason 2011/2012 HF rankings. Detroit was ranked 15th LAST YEAR. If you actually go through the news feed and check THIS years rankings we are 10th.

Nice job with the sarcasm troll post but Hockeysfuture just made your post look silly with their lazy site updating. No worries happens to all of us.

Here is the link you are looking for http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-1-10/
And it makes you look like the annoying know-it-all dips***t who sat at the front of the class because you know all the answers and wouldn't share your little nugget of useless information with the others who asked you about it before in this thread.

Bravo, buy yourself a box of gold and silver stars and stick five of them on your forehead. You most certainly "earned" them. lol.

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07-05-2012, 11:58 AM
  #148
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Look at the situation rationally :

Markov had never missed significant time before 09 when he was accidentally cut by a skate and missed the first half of the season, only to make a quick recovery considering the gravity of the injury. Thats not a ''injury prone'' type injury.

In the Playoffs Matt Cooke throws him on the boards, he breaks his leg. The next year, he comes back too early, gets kneed and misses the rest of the season plus nearly the entire next year (we're in 2012 now). In the meantime he finally and successfully underwent surgery and went on to a full recovery. He was not rushed this time, since the Habs had nothing to gain rushing him due to a catastrophic season, and he's 100% now after a summer of resting.

He's not a Salo type of guy, he's never had injury problems before that knee and its been fixed. Sure, he probably won't skate as well and it will be more vulnerable but its not like he's not fragile by any means.
Detroit fans, please read this. I'm not even trying to join this debate, but the claims of Markov's injury-proneness are greatly exaggerated. Every player who misses significant time due to injury is not injury-prone. Bad luck happens, bad medical decisions happen, basically **** happens.

If anybody does not agree with this, please explain to me how getting a tendon cut by a skate is being injury-prone. Please do also tell me how being misdiagnosed and being brought back too early is being injury prone. I'd love to hear you guys spin this one off.

I do agree that Markov's value is currently very low, but that's due more to uncertainties related to his play level than worries about injury.

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07-05-2012, 12:14 PM
  #149
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And it makes you look like the annoying know-it-all dips***t who sat at the front of the class because you know all the answers and wouldn't share your little nugget of useless information with the others who asked you about it before in this thread.

Bravo, buy yourself a box of gold and silver stars and stick five of them on your forehead. You most certainly "earned" them. lol.
Sorry bro, you got owned for being careless. No need to get personal or petty.

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07-05-2012, 12:59 PM
  #150
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Those were drafted specifically with picks comparable to what Detroit had. I didn't include Backstrom, Alzner, McDonaugh, Galchenyuk or Forsberg. Even New Jersey who drafts low themselves have been consistently better in recent history.

How many of Detroit's current prospect project to be capable of contributing anywhere near Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom or Kronwall?
Projected? Who knows. here's what I understand:

Lidstrom = nobody (tell me which NHL club has a Lidstrom in their prospect pool - he's a generational player)

Zetterberg = Jarnkrok was compared to Zetterberg

Datsyuk = Jurco stick skills were talked about in the same breath as Datsyuk.

Kronwall = Smith is bigger and more gritty. I understand he's projected to be better than Kronwall.

Filppula = Nyquist. I think that is fair comparison

I guess Frk, Tatar, Athanasiou are all suppose to be pretty good. Also, Sproul and Ouellet had outstanding seasons and were stars in their class. Perhaps a DRWs fan can comment on this, but I think Sproul and Ouellet were top defensemen in their league, ahead of 1st round pick dmen...

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