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Could Plekanec be the one on the way out ?

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Old
07-05-2012, 11:25 AM
  #326
Dr Gonzo
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
The one thing I always love is how this always works against DD but it's never mentioned about Patches or Cole. Boggles my mind.


It doesn't necessarily work against DD.

He produced, and he helped his linemates produce. I don't think I said otherwise. Although I did point out, objectively, that Eller didn't get that same opportunity.

The position they were placed in were polar opposites. Eller wasn't given much of a chance (with all the factors that I enumerated several times), whereas DD was.

Does that denigrate DD? Nope, not at all. It's just the reality of the situation. It's as if pointing out the reality of the situation is somehow a knock on DD. It really isn't.

If I remember correctly, Pacioretty was signing the praises of DD once the season ended, so clearly he made his linemates better, or at least helped with their production.

All I said was, I personally believe if Eller was afforded the same luxuries, he would outproduce Desharnais.

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07-05-2012, 11:30 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Yes, because Eller was afforded the same luxuries as DD. I mean, he wasn't placed in a bad situation with constant position changes, no PP time, constant changing linemates, more defensive zone starts and a relatively strong strength of opposition....that never happened, right? lol

You have to place a player in a position to succeed if that's what you expect from him. Tell me how many second year players around the league scored 16 without hardly any PP time?

There has to be tons, because clearly Eller is a dime a dozen player, lol
Err...before he was matched up with the MaxPac and Cole line...ie. the year before, DD wasn't given huge pp time if any, and didn't have the greatest wingers...yet the fact of the matter was that he still produced. He seems to have produce no matter who he is given to play with. Lars as of yet hasn't. If I'm not mistaken, his linemates were AK and Lars... Either way, DD 'earned' his linemates and playing time. Lars has not. Sure, put Lars in the position to succeed and I'm sure he'll do well, but DD wasn't put into that position and he still succeeded.

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07-05-2012, 11:33 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
It doesn't necessarily work against DD.

He produced, and he helped his linemates produce. I don't think I said otherwise. Although I did point out, objectively, that Eller didn't get that same opportunity.

The position they were placed in were polar opposites. Eller wasn't given much of a chance (with all the factors that I enumerated several times), whereas DD was.

Does that denigrate DD? Nope, not at all. It's just the reality of the situation. It's as if pointing out the reality of the situation is somehow a knock on DD. It really isn't.

If I remember correctly, Pacioretty was signing the praises of DD once the season ended, so clearly he made his linemates better, or at least helped with their production.

All I said was, I personally believe if Eller was afforded the same luxuries, he would outproduce Desharnais.
I very much doubt that, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

In my opinion, Cole could have scored 50 if he scored on more chances that DD set him up for. Half of the time DD would set him up brilliantly, Cole would fan or miss, and then dominate the play by himself and score.

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07-05-2012, 11:34 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Err...before he was matched up with the MaxPac and Cole line...ie. the year before, DD wasn't given huge pp time if any, and didn't have the greatest wingers...yet the fact of the matter was that he still produced. He seems to have produce no matter who he is given to play with. Lars as of yet hasn't. If I'm not mistaken, his linemates were AK and Lars... Either way, DD 'earned' his linemates and playing time. Lars has not. Sure, put Lars in the position to succeed and I'm sure he'll do well, but DD wasn't put into that position and he still succeeded.


Well it's not as if Eller didn't produce.

Even with little to no PP time, some of the worst linemates in the NHL and being constantly switched positions, he potted 16. That's pretty damn good.

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07-05-2012, 11:34 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
In the 42 games each played from Jan-April, Plekanec had 23 points to DD's 36 points. The "matching" of offensive production wasn't happening in the second half of the season.
That was the section where Plekanec held the line in defensive wingers with fourth-liners on his wings so that DD could continue getting plum offensive assignments with the team's two best wingers, right?

I'm not blaming DD or saying he sucks, it was one of the few things Cunneyworth did somewhat right (though it would have been better to break up the DD line). But perspective.

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07-05-2012, 11:37 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Err...before he was matched up with the MaxPac and Cole line...ie. the year before, DD wasn't given huge pp time if any, and didn't have the greatest wingers...yet the fact of the matter was that he still produced. He seems to have produce no matter who he is given to play with. Lars as of yet hasn't. If I'm not mistaken, his linemates were AK and Lars... Either way, DD 'earned' his linemates and playing time. Lars has not. Sure, put Lars in the position to succeed and I'm sure he'll do well, but DD wasn't put into that position and he still succeeded.
You realize Lars Eller is 2 and a half years younger right?

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07-05-2012, 11:44 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Err...before he was matched up with the MaxPac and Cole line...ie. the year before, DD wasn't given huge pp time if any, and didn't have the greatest wingers...yet the fact of the matter was that he still produced. He seems to have produce no matter who he is given to play with. Lars as of yet hasn't. If I'm not mistaken, his linemates were AK and Lars... Either way, DD 'earned' his linemates and playing time. Lars has not. Sure, put Lars in the position to succeed and I'm sure he'll do well, but DD wasn't put into that position and he still succeeded.
How did DD earn his linemates? Martin sent Cole to the doghouse and MaxPac was demoted to try and kickstart Gomez. This is how they hooked up, Martin didn't embrace the carrot approach.

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07-05-2012, 11:51 AM
  #333
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Lol Plekanec is one of the best two-way forwards in the game. Getting rid of him is ridiculous at this point in his career and considering the roster coming up next year.

It's idiotic to assume we have anyone remotely close to being ready to fill the role he has defensively and at even strength.

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07-05-2012, 11:53 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
You realize Lars Eller is 2 and a half years younger right?
Of course. He also has 2 full years compared to DD's 1.5.
But that's besides the point. I never said he won't produce, or that the talent isn't there or that he'll never eclipse DD. Just that he hasn't yet. It's probably just a confidence thing. DD has succeeded against all odds at all levels. He knows he's good. He knows he can do it, thus he's better equipped mentally to succeed. As of right now Lars isn't. Unfortunately I don't think he's been developed properly and should have been in the minors that first year and start out his NHL career last year or maybe even this year. Regardless, he seems to be lacking that confidence of knowing he can do it. Hopefully with new coaching he'll gain that confidence.

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07-05-2012, 12:01 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Well it's not as if Eller didn't produce.

Even with little to no PP time, some of the worst linemates in the NHL and being constantly switched positions, he potted 16. That's pretty damn good.
Well, 2 full seasons with 17 and 28pts isn't that great. DD's first year wasn't lined up with the greatest linemates as well. And he still produced about the same amount of pts in only half the year. Albeit Pouliot is probably still an upgrade to Eller's linemates...
Look, I agree with you that Eller hasn't been developed or used correctly. He has the tools and talent to be a very good player. Certainly better than he is now. And he's still very young. He just isn't there yet like DD is. Hopefully he'll come into his own this year and finally show the world what he is truly capable of.

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07-05-2012, 12:03 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
How did DD earn his linemates? Martin sent Cole to the doghouse and MaxPac was demoted to try and kickstart Gomez. This is how they hooked up, Martin didn't embrace the carrot approach.
Lol, alright, lets just say he earned the right to 'keep' his linemates.

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07-05-2012, 12:06 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by mustardnight View Post
Lol Plekanec is one of the best two-way forwards in the game. Getting rid of him is ridiculous at this point in his career and considering the roster coming up next year.

It's idiotic to assume we have anyone remotely close to being ready to fill the role he has defensively and at even strength.
You'll be interested to find that very few people who advocate trading Plekanec think that we can replace him immediately.

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07-05-2012, 12:15 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
You'll be interested to find that very few people who advocate trading Plekanec think that we can replace him immediately.
How does that make any sense at all? If we can't replace a player, then keep him! Is that not obvious?

This reminds me of those threads asking to trade Moen, but for what? A player that will likely not be able to adequately replace Moen in his role. People enjoy trades because they enjoy fresh faces playing for the habs, that doesn't mean we should trade important poeces for things we can already find in the player we're looking to trade.

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07-05-2012, 12:33 PM
  #339
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How does that make any sense at all? If we can't replace a player, then keep him! Is that not obvious?
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, here's the idea:

It's not about now. It's about a future contender. All our prospects are about 3-5 years away from leading the charge towards us being a perenially competitive team. Plekanec isn't leading us to the cup. We aren't going to the cup any time soon. By the time we're ready to challenge, Plekanec's best years will be over, and he won't be the player he is today, neither in ability, nor role. The question becomes, does it make more sense to have a better team now, a worse draft, and an aging Pleky then. Or does it make sense to move Pleky to maximize the assets which will be the one's leading us closer to a cup 3-5 years from now?

Moving Plekanec today will make us worse, today. And that's kind of the point. If you move him for say a 1st and Coyle, and we pick top 3 again, then you essentially moved Pleky for a 1st, Coyle, a top 3 pick, and a good chance at a player projected to go in the first with our second pick, on top of the other 2 2nd round picks we already have, one of which stands to be a top 40 pick as well.

That would really make a big difference in 3-5 years.

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07-05-2012, 12:36 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
Of course. He also has 2 full years compared to DD's 1.5.
But that's besides the point. I never said he won't produce, or that the talent isn't there or that he'll never eclipse DD. Just that he hasn't yet. It's probably just a confidence thing. DD has succeeded against all odds at all levels. He knows he's good. He knows he can do it, thus he's better equipped mentally to succeed. As of right now Lars isn't. Unfortunately I don't think he's been developed properly and should have been in the minors that first year and start out his NHL career last year or maybe even this year. Regardless, he seems to be lacking that confidence of knowing he can do it. Hopefully with new coaching he'll gain that confidence.
He uhh...he played in the minors in his first year.

He has a full season of AHL experience.

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07-05-2012, 12:59 PM
  #341
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Why are we talking about Plekanec getting hard matchups? He's our best two-way center, that's true but I'd hope with the formation of a legit bottom 6 Plekanec can focus on more offensive roles and he may(or may not) get easier matchups with the flexibility we have. In light of that, Bourque near him, if chemistry is there shouldn't be a problem. Also, Bourque isn't a bad defensive player when on his game(IF he's on his game obviously).

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07-05-2012, 01:14 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Yes, because Eller was afforded the same luxuries as DD. I mean, he wasn't placed in a bad situation with constant position changes, no PP time, constant changing linemates, more defensive zone starts and a relatively strong strength of opposition....that never happened, right? lol

You have to place a player in a position to succeed if that's what you expect from him. Tell me how many second year players around the league scored 16 without hardly any PP time?

There has to be tons, because clearly Eller is a dime a dozen player, lol
Eller was given the same luxuries as DD was. The difference was DD produced instantly when given those opportunities and that is the reason why he continued to get them.

DD literally forced everyone to use him. DD forced his way onto the most producing line with Cole & Patches over Pleks even because he produced.

I'm not a DD fan but the reality is, he earned what he got. Eller had the same chances but never produced which is why he's been regulated to less PP time and more PK time. He is excelling at PK, so he's earning more PK time.

If he produced on the limited PP chances, he would earn more PP time.

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07-05-2012, 01:25 PM
  #343
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Eller did not have the same chances as DD.

DD had stability, great wingers, stayed at his position, got a ton of PP time, wasn't changed lines at the drop of a hat, etc etc.

Whereas Eller did not have those luxuries.

Instead of PP time, he got PK time. Not a horrible thing, but not exactly the best way get see point production from a player.

You can't honestly say that DD and Eller were put in the same position to succeed.

Not taking anything away from DD, but it's clear that Eller was put in a tough position, and DD, through his own work ethic and a little luck (Martin's merry-go-round line changes) was not.

Besides, Eller produced one less goal in his pp time (grand total of 52 minutes) than DD did (266 minutes). Not to mention the only PP time Eller got was 2nd unit time, with some of the worst PP players in the league (Campoli, Gomez, etc)

Which brings us to another point, I wish DD would shoot more. He thinks pass first, but he's still got a decent shot. I guess if you have wingers that produce as much as Cole and Pacioretty, passing first isn't a terrible idea. DD is after all, the pro hockey player, whereas I'm just an armchair GM.

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07-05-2012, 01:33 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Eller did not have the same chances as DD.

DD had stability, great wingers, stayed at his position, got a ton of PP time, wasn't changed lines at the drop of a hat, etc etc.

Whereas Eller did not have those luxuries.

Instead of PP time, he got PK time. Not a horrible thing, but not exactly the best way get see point production from a player.

You can't honestly say that DD and Eller were put in the same position to succeed.

Not taking anything away from DD, but it's clear that Eller was put in a tough position, and DD, through his own work ethic and a little luck (Martin's merry-go-round line changes) was not.

Besides, Eller produced one less goal in his pp time (grand total of 52 minutes) than DD did (266 minutes). Not to mention the only PP time Eller got was 2nd unit time, with some of the worst PP players in the league (Campoli, Gomez, etc)

Which brings us to another point, I wish DD would shoot more. He thinks pass first, but he's still got a decent shot. I guess if you have wingers that produce as much as Cole and Pacioretty, passing first isn't a terrible idea. DD is after all, the pro hockey player, whereas I'm just an armchair GM.
I don't disagree with the notion that DD had more stability but Desharnais proved more in his time with top players than Eller did. In fact, Cole only starting scoring when he played with DD.

It's like me saying weber wasn't better than Subban because Subban had much more stability.

In fact, weber had 4 PPG and Subban had 5. Subban had over 100 minutes more PP time as well.

Granted, the comparison between Eller and DD is much closer to the previous but was just making a point. DD stuck with more offensively gifted wingers because in his stay, he made them better and has a higher level of offensive vision than Eller. Does it mean DD will be the better player? Not necessarily, Eller's two-way game is superior but in terms of playing with top linemates, DD deserved it more and just plain fit better.

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07-05-2012, 01:34 PM
  #345
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Eller was given the same luxuries as DD was. The difference was DD produced instantly when given those opportunities and that is the reason why he continued to get them.

DD literally forced everyone to use him. DD forced his way onto the most producing line with Cole & Patches over Pleks even because he produced.

I'm not a DD fan but the reality is, he earned what he got. Eller had the same chances but never produced which is why he's been regulated to less PP time and more PK time. He is excelling at PK, so he's earning more PK time.

If he produced on the limited PP chances, he would earn more PP time.
Last year on the powerplay.

Desharnais: .70 goals per 60 minutes, 3.96 points per 60 minutes
Eller: 2.31 goals per 60 minutes, 3.46 points per 60 minutes

Desharnais did not out produce Eller at a significant pace on the powerplay last year. Slightly more points per minute while Eller had much better goal scoring during his limited time.

Eller did produce on his limited PP time. Your argument is incorrect.


One the matter of Eller vs Desharnais. Desharnais is an offensive zone specialist with good playmaking skills. His utilization last year as a soft minute scorer was largely correct. Eller is a two-way forward with a monster puck possession game for one so young. He played hard minutes with limited support and got killed.

The problem is when people use points as a direct comparison of value. That is terrible analysis. One player had everything possible done to increase their points in usage terms while the other had just about as much as possible done in usage to suppress their scoring totals.

Thus we have a situation where two-players are probably largely equivalent in impact but one has twice the scoring totals as the other. Usage context is vital when comparing point totals.

Eller may not have Desharnais offensive skill and may have scored less in the same role. I'd suggest that by virtue of better defense and puck possession his plus minus would have been equal to better however. A player's impact is based on how he effects team goal differential, not just how many points he scores.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 07-05-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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07-05-2012, 01:38 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post

It's like me saying weber wasn't better than Subban because Subban had much more stability.



Granted, the comparison between Eller and DD is much closer to the previous but was just making a point. DD stuck with more offensively gifted wingers because in his stay, he made them better and has a higher level of offensive vision than Eller. Does it mean DD will be the better player? Not necessarily, Eller's two-way game is superior but in terms of playing with top linemates, DD deserved it more and just plain fit better.

It's not at all like saying Weber wasn't better than Subban. That's reaching.

DD ended up where he did due to the merry-go-round that was created by Martin. Yes he stuck because he fit, but Eller was never given that luxury, thus my point.

You really can't argue that Eller was not put in a much tougher situation, one that is not conducive to producing. Yet he still managed to put up 16 goals, which is very respectable especially considering all the factors I have enumerated several times.

Hopefully Therrien gives Eller a chance to shine, because with a little more space on the PP, Eller is bound to produce even more than he is already, with his limited, and very defensive role.

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07-05-2012, 01:38 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Last year on the powerplay.

Desharnais: .70 goals per 60 minutes, 3.96 points per 60 minutes
Eller: 2.31 goals per 60 minutes, 3.46 points per 60 minutes

Desharnais did not out produce Eller at a significant pace on the powerplay last year. Slightly more points per minute while Eller had much better goal scoring during his limited time.

Eller did produce on his limited PP time. Your argument is incorrect.
Couple that with the fact that Gomez was awful on the PP and received an inordinate amount of PP time, the hypothesis that those who 'produce' on the PP get most PP time is proven false.

Nice post, TTG.

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07-05-2012, 01:43 PM
  #348
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It's not at all like saying Weber wasn't better than Subban. That's reaching.

DD ended up where he did due to the merry-go-round that was created by Martin. Yes he stuck because he fit, but Eller was never given that luxury, thus my point.
Assuming Eller was given that luxury, do you feel he'd do better in that role(as 1st line center, offensively anyway) than DD? I don't think so.

I understood your point, and didn't disagree with the whole premise, but they were played at their strengths and Eller just isn't offensively polished enough to fit into that role, so Martin, Therrien, Lemaire, whatever, end of the day, Eller wasn't ready to even assume the role, DD was. Maybe it will change in the future though just Eller may be better offensively than his stats indicate but he's still not at Plekanec or Desharnais' level offensively. Again, not bashing the guy, just saying I don't think it had anything to do with merry-go-rounds or luck. They were played to their strengths given the personnel we had. I'd argue a true 4th line center would help both Eller and Plekanec get some easier match ups and in turn, we'll see more of their offensive game.

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07-05-2012, 01:46 PM
  #349
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I honestly think that Eller would have been fantastic with 1st PP minutes.

Pro rated, if he had the same PP time as DD he would have had almost 10 goals, one less than Cole. Again, these are all hypothetical situations, but there's nothing that Eller showed that that leads me to believe he wouldn't benefit from being used properly.

If a 2nd year player can produce 16 goals on our 3rd/4th line, with little to no powerplay time, playing against a fairly high strength of opposition, surrounded by Scott Gomez, Darche and Engvist, imagine what he could do with proper wingers, better ice time and a little stability?

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07-05-2012, 01:53 PM
  #350
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N.B. One thing Eller would have to work on , and hopefully he is, is his faceoffs. He's not very good at it, at least not at a #1 center rate.

That being said, often he was playing against faceoff specialists, and his wingers didn't help out very much, since they were usually softer than a kraft single on a Florida sidewalk.

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