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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 2

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Old
07-05-2012, 12:59 PM
  #1001
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Originally Posted by sdaltons View Post
i just suggested this idea on Blues Talk, but i'm interested in getting the perspective of the people here as well.

What about the Devils as a trading partner?

Once they re-sign Fayne, they will have 8 defensemen on their roster. They will definitely be looking for some scoring help with Parise gone. Lou says Larsson will be in the top-6 next season, which means someone else from the top-6 will have to move to make room.

Mark Fayne
Andy Greene
Peter Harrold
Adam Larsson
Bryce Salvador
Henrik Tallinder
Anton Volchenkov
Marek Zidlicky

Right off the bat we can eliminate Peter Harrold (let's face it, he's not the one holding Larsson back), Adam Larsson, and Bryce Salvador (they wouldn't have signed him just to trade him). From the Blues perspective, we can also eliminate Mark Fayne and Marek Zidlicky, as they are both righties.

That leaves:

Andy Greene
age 29, 5'11'', 194, $3,000,000
56 GP, 16 pts, 16 PIMs, +3

Henrik Tallinder
age 33, 6'3'', 209, $3,375,000
39 GP, 6 pts, 16 PIMs, -11

Anton Volchenkov
age 30, 6'2'', 225, $4,250,000
72 GP, 11 pts, 34 PIMs, +3

So if we start the offer with Chris Stewart, who is due $3,000,000, we are already pretty close on each of the three salary-wise.

Obviously only Lou knows who he would be willing to deal from the group, and it might not even be one of these three, but if it is, this is definitely a route I'd explore.

So my question is, REALISTICALLY, which player would you be interested in adding and what, in addition to Stewart, would make for a fair offer?
Of the NJ d-men, I'm most interested in Tallinder. The Devils saw that they could win without him, and once they re-signed Harrold I figured Tallinder would be the odd man out again. I think we could get him without parting with Stewart.

If Stewart is who NJ wants, then I think a Stewie-for-Volchenkov straight up deal would work. But Anton would have to waive his NTC to come to STL. It would also give us a Russian teammate for Tank (since I figure Grachev will spend most of next season in Peoria).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedBlue1967 View Post
agreed on Volchenkov... however, Lou L still runs the Devils and there is a History of animosity between the Devils and the Blues with the Shanahan Stevens fiasco back in the day.
This is old news (20 years ago now). In fact, it was a big story when Keenan made two trades with Lou in the 90's (Peluso/Persson for Sutton; Zezel for McAlpine), and more or less made amends between the two teams. The Janssen-Salvador trade also showed the animosity is gone as well.

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Old
07-05-2012, 01:02 PM
  #1002
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At $4m it isn't like he is on a bad contract. We beat the Sharks pretty comfortably this year and shut him down, but in the 2 prior years he was 14-13-27 in 33 playoff games.

When it comes to Gormley, I'm a huge fan, but I think that the Coyotes will want a proven NHL player going back in a deal. I suspect they would probably want Perron or Berglund for Gormley+
They aren't going to get that kind of deal from anyone though. Who's going to trade a surplus established young top 6 forward for a prospect? Even a very good prospect. Gormley and Schwartz are totally comparable. Gormley was Canada's best defenseman and Schwartz was their best playmaker. They were even drafted consecutively in 2010. It's an exactly mutual appropriate risk share.

You might be right that they choose to value him that way, I just don't think they're going to get anywhere with that stance. Most teams have their own top defensive prospects in the pipeline or full bluelines right now or don't have the spare top 6 forwards to make that kind of deal. If the Blues would have to trade Perron or Berglund then Yandle is the only thing we'd accept coming back.

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07-05-2012, 01:06 PM
  #1003
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Not saying I would make the deal, but I suspect that is what they would want. Otherwise it is probably better for them if they were to move Yandle in terms of value of return.

I really don't want us to be in the mix for Yandle though.

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07-05-2012, 01:06 PM
  #1004
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I think if we seriously thought about moving Schwartz for Gormley, then we would not have drafted Schmaltz.

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07-05-2012, 01:08 PM
  #1005
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Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
Not saying I would make the deal, but I suspect that is what they would want. Otherwise it is probably better for them if they were to move Yandle in terms of value of return.

I really don't want us to be in the mix for Yandle though.
I want us in the mix, especially since Armstrong isn't known for making bad deals. I think he is comfortable enough with Cole to not make a trade if it isn't worth it.

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07-05-2012, 01:14 PM
  #1006
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I think if we seriously thought about moving Schwartz for Gormley, then we would not have drafted Schmaltz.
That doesn't make any sense. They draft BPA regardless of current need. Schmaltz is also several years away even if he turns out to be a real prospect. He has major question marks and is not in the Gormley category. Plus, if he develops they can always flip him later for an offensive prospect, just like they did when they drafted Rundblad and he was doing well but they still rebalanced by flipping him to get Tarasenko.

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07-05-2012, 01:15 PM
  #1007
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I think if we seriously thought about moving Schwartz for Gormley, then we would not have drafted Schmaltz.
I can pretty much guarantee that theoretical roster trades play a role of about 0% in amateur scouting.

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07-05-2012, 01:16 PM
  #1008
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
That doesn't make any sense. They draft BPA regardless of current need. Schmaltz is also several years away even if he turns out to be a real prospect. He has major question marks and is not in the Gormley category. Plus, if he develops they can always flip him later for an offensive prospect, just like they did when they drafted Rundblad and he was doing well but they still rebalanced by flipping him to get Tarasenko.
Maybe, but that's just what I think.

On the topic of Yandle, consensus around HF is if we want him, we can get him. Only question is if Army is willing to give up the assets that would take to get him.

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07-05-2012, 01:22 PM
  #1009
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Originally Posted by TheOrganist View Post
I can pretty much guarantee that theoretical roster trades play a role of about 0% in amateur scouting.
Well you still have to think into the future. We would end up having Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Gormley, Cole, Schmaltz all presumably on the big club in the near future. We would just move our hole from defense back to forward. With our system, we need more natural talent on offense than we do on defense.

I know a Schwartz for Gormley deal would work, and make us better in the short-term, but Gormley won't help us win the Cup this season, and in the long-term, I'd rather have Schwartz.

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07-05-2012, 01:22 PM
  #1010
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I want us in the mix, especially since Armstrong isn't known for making bad deals. I think he is comfortable enough with Cole to not make a trade if it isn't worth it.
There are situations where it is possible to get a good deal, and there are some where it just isn't. Considering the current market for a top defenseman, if Yandle does move, then whoever gets him will be paying a solid premium to Phoenix.

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07-05-2012, 01:26 PM
  #1011
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Originally Posted by Alklha View Post
There are situations where it is possible to get a good deal, and there are some where it just isn't. Considering the current market for a top defenseman, if Yandle does move, then whoever gets him will be paying a solid premium to Phoenix.
Maybe Armstrong can be involved enough to make the team that gets him overpay by a s***ton. Maybe we can get Detroit to stupidly overpay for him.

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07-05-2012, 01:29 PM
  #1012
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Maybe, but that's just what I think.

On the topic of Yandle, consensus around HF is if we want him, we can get him. Only question is if Army is willing to give up the assets that would take to get him.
Like Organist said, scouting doesn't weigh possible future hypothetical trades in their decision making. At the time of the draft they might have thought they'd get Garrison, for example. There are a million variables, guys on the roster can get hurt or stop producing or someone can come out of nowhere and overachieve and needs can change year to year.

As for Yandle, they have the assets to get him and I would be thrilled if they did get him. He's that good of a player. He would be the best player in any deal that would go down. We'll just have to wait and see on that. Yandle would be more expensive to get than Gormley so all you're weighing is how much more you'd have to give up. It's not like I'm in a rush to get rid of Schwartz, he's a glittering offensive prospect. Just think it's a viable alternative idea.

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07-05-2012, 01:35 PM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
At this point I'd be happy if they traded Schwartz for Gormley and re-signed Langenbrunner or similar and call themselves done.

Gormley is going to be a top-pairing guy in the NHL. It might be immediate, it might take a year or two until he's really comfortable. Here are the last eight WJC best defenseman award winners:

Brandon Gormley
Ryan Ellis
Alex Pietrangelo
Erik Karlsson
Drew Doughty
Erik Johnson
Marc Staal
Dion Phaneuf

Gormley is a top talent on defense. Schwartz going to Phoenix makes sense. They are already loaded with top NHL defensemen and have plenty of top end prospects on D in the pipeline even without Gormley. But they are dry on top end forward talent and have lost Whitney and may lose Doan.

So Gormley could come right out of the gate the way Pietrangelo played two years after being drafted, or he could take some time blending in. The Blues with Cole would certainly be able to bridge any regular season time it might take Gormley to adjust.

Plus, you give up Schwartz, yeah that hurts but you have McDonald, Perron, Steen and Sobotka this year and the latter three are young for awhile. Plus there's Grachev, Veillieux and Tesink in their development stages now, with guys like Kurker and Maceachern starting their development, and obviously future drafts. Heck, maybe they'd even get lucky and land Doan. But the point is they wouldn't be hurting on the wings at any time, and they've solved the top-end dman problem. Yes, Yandle is an immediate fix and Gormley isn't quite settled in yet, but if you trade for Yandle you are definitely giving up someone off the roster you've been relying on.
I'm surprised that you would rather send Schwartz instead of Stewart? Any particular reason why?

I really don't want to move Schwartz, he's the #8 HF prospect for a reason, he very well may be able to replace Stewarts points this year and definitely by next year.

I'm just surprised to hear you offer up Schwartz up instead of Stewart. Well likely have to move Stewart anyway, if he rebounds he'll get a large raise, if he doesn't he will have lost any remaining value. I would imagine Stewart with maybe a small piece would be enough to land Gormley, who is still a prospect and all, his trade value should be a top 6 winger, and well, Stewart on Phoenix is a top 6 winger.

Thoughts?

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07-05-2012, 01:42 PM
  #1014
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Originally Posted by Meatwagon View Post
I'm surprised that you would rather send Schwartz instead of Stewart? Any particular reason why?

I really don't want to move Schwartz, he's the #8 HF prospect for a reason, he very well may be able to replace Stewarts points this year and definitely by next year.

I'm just surprised to hear you offer up Schwartz up instead of Stewart. Well likely have to move Stewart anyway, if he rebounds he'll get a large raise, if he doesn't he will have lost any remaining value. I would imagine Stewart with maybe a small piece would be enough to land Gormley, who is still a prospect and all, his trade value should be a top 6 winger, and well, Stewart on Phoenix is a top 6 winger.

Thoughts?
I won't speak for P9's but you have to look at the situation from the Coyotes perspective. You laid out the two logical scenarios that any team acquiring Stewart will face next summer. Would the most budget conscious team in the league rather have that type of player or a cost controlled, big upside rookie as the return?

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07-05-2012, 01:47 PM
  #1015
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I've got to assume they would want Schwartz more than stewart, just like many here.

Would they open up to stewie and a pick, and would we prefer it? Maybe.

Edit: I'm bad at value, so I'm not really sure where stewart compares to gormley.

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07-05-2012, 01:57 PM
  #1016
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Gormley won't be traded for Stewart.

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07-05-2012, 02:08 PM
  #1017
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Gormley won't be traded for Stewart.
Fair enough.

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07-05-2012, 02:09 PM
  #1018
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Oh, yeah, I would certainly trade Stewart before Schwartz. But Schwartz and Gormley are exactly the same type of high end prospect and so it's a pure hockey trade give to get thing. I've actually approached the Stewart for Gormley idea cautiously months ago on Phoenix' board and it's clear they didn't want that. Maybe things have changed or would change but they don't play the run n gun that would see a more successful Stewart either and they're sophisticated enough to know it.

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07-05-2012, 02:13 PM
  #1019
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Gromley is 20 years old and is one of three top defensive prospects Pheonix has. As much as I like him the Blues window is open now going forward. Yandle makes a lot more sense as he is an established all star and heading into his prime. He won't come cheaply. Certainly they are a good potential trade partner. The FA cubboard is bare. Army will be working hard to upgrade the team. I still think Perron is the forward the Blues are most likely to deal but of course the trade partner will have to be willing to dance.

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07-05-2012, 02:16 PM
  #1020
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I know everyone sucked in that series, I'm just pointing out that he is still very inconsistent. That inconsistency to me, means he isn't ready to be a top 6 center on a team that wants to win the Cup. We need a lot more offense from everyone if we want to win the Cup. If the Backes line is shutting the other top line down, then the Berglund line has to score, and he has not shown the consistency that he can do that.
Going off the Kings series is a horrible way to judge a player in genera everyone that played against the Kings this year didn't look very good.

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07-05-2012, 02:28 PM
  #1021
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Of the NJ d-men, I'm most interested in Tallinder. The Devils saw that they could win without him, and once they re-signed Harrold I figured Tallinder would be the odd man out again. I think we could get him without parting with Stewart.

If Stewart is who NJ wants, then I think a Stewie-for-Volchenkov straight up deal would work. But Anton would have to waive his NTC to come to STL. It would also give us a Russian teammate for Tank (since I figure Grachev will spend most of next season in Peoria).



This is old news (20 years ago now). In fact, it was a big story when Keenan made two trades with Lou in the 90's (Peluso/Persson for Sutton; Zezel for McAlpine), and more or less made amends between the two teams. The Janssen-Salvador trade also showed the animosity is gone as well.
The trades you mentioned were not really earth trembling deals I'll add. Anyway, the gallery will continue to propose trades to improve the Blues roster and the Devils are not a good trading partner present day.

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07-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #1022
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Going off the Kings series is a horrible way to judge a player in genera everyone that played against the Kings this year didn't look very good.
Has Berglund ever been consistent? No, that was just one example. He went from dominating to invisible. That is the first time it has happened either. His game is better suited on bigger ice.

If he finally decides to just go straight to the net and shoot more, then he can become a very productive player, but we have been saying that for the past 4 seasons.

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07-05-2012, 03:18 PM
  #1023
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The trades you mentioned were not really earth trembling deals I'll add. Anyway, the gallery will continue to propose trades to improve the Blues roster and the Devils are not a good trading partner present day.
Earth-trembling, no. But considering the bad blood between those two teams, it was a step in the right direction. I forgot that Keenan also traded Esa Tikkanen to the Devils as well. I know Keenan takes a lot of heat from Blues fans (and rightfully so), but he does deserve some credit for helping to resolve the nastiness between NJ and STL.

And I have to respectfully disagree about NJ not being a good trading partner. Any team that is loaded on defense and is looking for Top 6 forwards (Phoenix, NJ, Buffalo) should be considered a good trading partner with the Blues. The only question is: what type of LD is Army looking for? For example, look at trading with the Coyotes:

1. If Army wants a top pair LD and wants to push Cole to #7, then we trade for Yandle. In this case, we'd have to part with some huge pieces.

2. If Army believes that Cole MIGHT be able to be paired with Petro for even-strength, and is looking for someone to compete with him for the eventual spot, then we trade for Gormley. In this case, we'd have to part with one of our better prospects.

3. If Army believes that Cole WILL be able to be paired with Petro for even-strength, and is looking for someone to fill the #7/Peoria spot, then we trade for Chris Summers (who's from Cole's hometown and played with him on the US National team). In this case, we may only have to part with a draft pick or a second-tier prospect.

Personally, I'd prefer Option #3 the best.

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07-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #1024
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If we could get Pavelski for Perron that'd be an absolute steal. You have to make that deal if it's available.

As for the D-men, there are not too many enticing options. The NJ options are not exciting at all; I'd rather go with Cole. Unless we can get someone like Bouwmeester, Enstrom, etc, Cole is a better option.

What I'd love to see is a trade of Stewart for someone about salary neutral and then the Blues to sign Semin to replace him. I know that's not going to be popular on this board due to Semin's reputation but most of that is due to stereotypes and the media and not based in fact. Semin is a good player who will sign cheaper than players of his caliber should cost due to that reputation, so he's a potential steal for a smart GM, especially after a season where his offensive numbers were a bit down due to his team underperforming and a change in system. He was still the best Capitals player under Hunter, and performed in both ends of the ice.

That's my two cents, but most likely it looks like we'll be standing pat, with maybe another depth defenseman signing somewhere on the horizon. Pretty boring, but the Blues should be improved relative to the division and improved overall simply from their younger players aging a bit.

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07-05-2012, 03:42 PM
  #1025
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I honestly think Semin gets 6/36 or something around that. Maybe a little more, but he is definitely out of our price range unless we drop some major salary.

Fans also blow his reputation way out of proportion. Semin played very well defensively with Hunter, and IMO has never really earned the rep that people have put on him. He might be soft, but he definitely plays good enough defense.

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