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Should Burke have waited to trade schenn?

View Poll Results: If we waited, would screen have fetched us more assets
Yes! Schenn would have gotten us a better package than JVR 11 7.14%
No, we would gave gotten the same or less 143 92.86%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-05-2012, 12:38 PM
  #51
Mess
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NHL dmen are always worth more and in more demand than NHL wingers when you compare position to position as the standard "build from the goalie out, strong defense and strength down the middle" the standard operating practice in the NHL. Thus making wingers the least important ingredient in generally accepted team building practices.

Luke Schenn began his NHL career at 18 and played for the Leafs through age 21 (4 seasons and +300 NHL games by the time he turned 22 and didn't play a single game in the AHL. This is not the norm by any standards of a young defensive dman making the NHL and contributing regularly so early on.. Try and name other examples of young defensive dmen breaking in at such an early age around the league that have 300 NHL games under their bet by age 22? Its an exception not the norm..

Jake Gardiner for example is only 7 months younger and just completed his 1st NHL season at age 21.. Kadri a forward a much easier position to make the NHL jump at earlier age is nearly 22 and still has not established himself, yet despite his late start Leaf fans believe he has top end potential still.. So I think Leaf nation is not giving the situation enough value as to Schenn's situation, and he is almost getting punished because he accomplished more at a younger age than most NHL dmen do, and be evaluated solely on those unexpected early contributions. He lead all NHL dmen in hits last year and physical, crease clearing dmen is a great commodity in today's "defense wins championships" methodology.. So his value now with all that investment Leafs have made in his development is now going to be the benefit of another team rather than the Leafs.

That doesn't suggest JVR does not have potential, but another winger on a team that really has nothing but wingers Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc already with Frattin and Kadri hoping to make the jump soon, really didn't address a true organizational need when they sacrificed Schenn in trade, other than added some size here.

Had Leafs waited as the OP suggest his value would have increased with more teams now wanting to man up to compete with what Minny did, and simply law of supply and demand take over as the market shrinks for available Dmen their value increases.

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Last edited by Mess: 07-05-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old
07-05-2012, 12:50 PM
  #52
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No. Reemer wasa great return.

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07-05-2012, 12:54 PM
  #53
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At the point in time we traded him, and even if he would have returned to the form we saw when he was playing at his highest level, I don't think we could have expected a much better return for Schenn than we got from Philly, and certainly not straight up. My jaw dropped to the floor when I heard about this trade. I couldn't believe Burke was able to pull this off. Excellent hockey trade.

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07-05-2012, 01:09 PM
  #54
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let's put it this way... we were willing to trade #5 overall + Schenn to move up to spot #2, and most agreed that is a fair price to pay to move up to #2.

That means we got JVR AND Rielly for Schenn (rather than trading up, and if we believe that Rielly was Burke's #1)

and please, none of the... we would have picked Galy, because we may not have, we may have picked Rielly, or even Murray at #2.

...and JVR is already developed, not just getting his feet wet.

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07-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #55
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The trade in it self was not bad, I think it was a good hockey trade.

I rate Schenn very highly and think he would have been a rock for us had he stayed on. JvR have the higher potential of the two but I think Schenn will find him self just as useful to his team.
Problem for him is that Flyers play a similar style to the Leafs. All out offense, then blaming goalies and defensive d-man for not doing their job while being excited about how many of their forwards have broken personal offensive records.

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07-05-2012, 01:16 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
NHL dmen are always worth more and in more demand than NHL wingers when you compare position to position as the standard "build from the goalie out, strong defense and strength down the middle" the standard operating practice in the NHL. Thus making wingers the least important ingredient in generally accepted team building practices.

Luke Schenn began his NHL career at 18 and played for the Leafs through age 21 (4 seasons and +300 NHL games by the time he turned 22 and didn't play a single game in the AHL. This is not the norm by any standards of a young defensive dman making the NHL and contributing regularly so early on.. Try and name other examples of young defensive dmen breaking in at such an early age around the league that have 300 NHL games under their bet by age 22? Its an exception not the norm..

Jake Gardiner for example is only 7 months younger and just completed his 1st NHL season at age 21.. Kadri a forward a much easier position to make the NHL jump at earlier age is nearly 22 and still has not established himself, yet despite his late start Leaf fans believe he has top end potential still.. So I think Leaf nation is not giving the situation enough value as to Schenn's situation, and he is almost getting punished because he accomplished more at a younger age than most NHL dmen do, and be evaluated solely on those unexpected early contributions. He lead all NHL dmen in hits last year and physical, crease clearing dmen is a great commodity in today's "defense wins championships" methodology.. So his value now with all that investment Leafs have made in his development is now going to be the benefit of another team rather than the Leafs.

That doesn't suggest JVR does not have potential, but another winger on a team that really has nothing but wingers Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc already with Frattin and Kadri hoping to make the jump soon, really didn't address a true organizational need when they sacrificed Schenn in trade, other than added some size here.

Had Leafs waited as the OP suggest his value would have increased with more teams now wanting to man up to compete with what Minny did, and simply law of supply and demand take over as the market shrinks for available Dmen their value increases.
Kadri has undeniable talent, he just needs to mature physically.
Schenn is mature physically, but, he has no talent.

He may have led the league in Hits, but, he never cleared the crease, and NONE of his hits ever disengaged the player from the puck.

I have used this analogy before, and it is valid ...Schenn is like a Pinball Bumper.
He hits the player, and the player just keeps on going.

He lost most all of his boards battles, and that is scary because he is bigger and stronger than most of the players he was up against. He lacks Hockey Sense, and he lacks Pure Talent.

He is nothing moe than a Speed bump on the way to the net for any opposing player, and a speed bump that can be bypassed with speed.

...then again, I have never been a Schenn fan (either brother)

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07-05-2012, 01:17 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
That doesn't suggest JVR does not have potential, but another winger on a team that really has nothing but wingers Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc already with Frattin and Kadri hoping to make the jump soon, really didn't address a true organizational need when they sacrificed Schenn in trade, other than added some size here.
Maybe Burke is trading like he drafts. Going BPA with trades that fit into his scheme of young promising players. No matter on the position and of course without overpaying to get potentially more value. Maybe Burke will trade players that he has the most value in like the group of wingers and trade for players in an area of weakness like centre or goaltending.

He said he's not done yet so you can't really assess this list of players as a roster yet, just a list of assets that need to turn into a team come September.

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07-05-2012, 01:56 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yes, or they shouldn't have traded him at all but rather continued to develop him as he is only 22 and most Dmen don't even make the NHL until this time, while Luke already has 4 years under his belt. Or they could have chosen to get rid of other defenseman first among the current group if it was a numbers issue.

If the Leafs were going to trade him it should have been in a deal that returned a #1C or #1G, which is a position of need for the team.

Schenn was traded in hopes the opening on D would secure Justin Schultz, and that backfired big time on the Leafs after he signed in Edmonton. Otherwise as you say, what was the rush as it could have waited until later this summer when teams are looking for Dmen all over the league.
Yeah, we traded that 22-year old from a position of strength who had all this potential and only got back a player style of need who was about the same age with more potential. What a loss by the Leafs, eh? Just like everything, eh?

You have no idea why Schenn was traded, or if we could have traded him later. Don't make stuff up.

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07-05-2012, 03:07 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
NHL dmen are always worth more and in more demand than NHL wingers when you compare position to position as the standard "build from the goalie out, strong defense and strength down the middle" the standard operating practice in the NHL. Thus making wingers the least important ingredient in generally accepted team building practices.
Since when are player values dictated exclusively by their position? Does Douglas Murray have more value than Ilya Kovalchuk?

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07-05-2012, 03:08 PM
  #60
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I don't think we should have traded him at all for atleast a couple more season's to see what he could truely become as a player

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07-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #61
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Since when are player values dictated exclusively by their position? Does Douglas Murray have more value than Ilya Kovalchuk?
No but if you compare players of equal potential the net minder wins over the defender who wins over the center who wins over the winger.

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07-05-2012, 03:16 PM
  #62
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well a straight up trade benefits both teams

i like the trade, i like JVR and i welcome him to Toronto

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07-05-2012, 03:28 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
NHL dmen are always worth more and in more demand than NHL wingers when you compare position to position as the standard "build from the goalie out, strong defense and strength down the middle" the standard operating practice in the NHL. Thus making wingers the least important ingredient in generally accepted team building practices.

Luke Schenn began his NHL career at 18 and played for the Leafs through age 21 (4 seasons and +300 NHL games by the time he turned 22 and didn't play a single game in the AHL. This is not the norm by any standards of a young defensive dman making the NHL and contributing regularly so early on.. Try and name other examples of young defensive dmen breaking in at such an early age around the league that have 300 NHL games under their bet by age 22? Its an exception not the norm..

Jake Gardiner for example is only 7 months younger and just completed his 1st NHL season at age 21.. Kadri a forward a much easier position to make the NHL jump at earlier age is nearly 22 and still has not established himself, yet despite his late start Leaf fans believe he has top end potential still.. So I think Leaf nation is not giving the situation enough value as to Schenn's situation, and he is almost getting punished because he accomplished more at a younger age than most NHL dmen do, and be evaluated solely on those unexpected early contributions. He lead all NHL dmen in hits last year and physical, crease clearing dmen is a great commodity in today's "defense wins championships" methodology.. So his value now with all that investment Leafs have made in his development is now going to be the benefit of another team rather than the Leafs.

That doesn't suggest JVR does not have potential, but another winger on a team that really has nothing but wingers Kessel, Lupul, Kulemin, etc already with Frattin and Kadri hoping to make the jump soon, really didn't address a true organizational need when they sacrificed Schenn in trade, other than added some size here.

Had Leafs waited as the OP suggest his value would have increased with more teams now wanting to man up to compete with what Minny did, and simply law of supply and demand take over as the market shrinks for available Dmen their value increases.
OH Mess, my ole friend i think you are over looking something.

There is nothing stopping JVR from stepping in as our young, big, skilled #1c.

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07-05-2012, 03:30 PM
  #64
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Yeah because waiting has sure helped Scott Howson...

Shero traded Staal right away and he got a great deal.

I like getting JVR for Schenn.

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07-05-2012, 03:32 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yeah because waiting has sure helped Scott Howson...

Shero traded Staal right away and he got a great deal.

I like getting JVR for Schenn.
Frankly, even steven trade.

A coup if they convert JVR back to the C he was before he hit the pro s.

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07-05-2012, 03:34 PM
  #66
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Not that Burke should have waited, but JVR is hugely overrated. He was a bust in Philly and that is why they dumped him.

May have been better to package Schenn to the Ducks for Ryan as he is way better than JVR.

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07-05-2012, 03:38 PM
  #67
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No but if you compare players of equal potential the net minder wins over the defender who wins over the center who wins over the winger.
Don't think that's the case. Burke has had an easier time acquiring defensemen than centermen. We don't have a centerman at a calibre and potential of a Phaneuf, Gardiner, Liles, Rielly...

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07-05-2012, 03:41 PM
  #68
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Not that Burke should have waited, but JVR is hugely overrated. He was a bust in Philly and that is why they dumped him.

May have been better to package Schenn to the Ducks for Ryan as he is way better than JVR.
Before the trade Philly fans didn't want to trade him at all. Players with his skill set take longer to develop than other forwards. He's a successful NHLer and even if he tops out at 50-60 points we still got a great deal.

I love Schenn, but he was terribly slow and not progressing into a 'shutdown defenseman' role. He was starting to stagnate and is now more likely to max out as a 4-6 defensive defenseman. Schenn needed a change of scenery and we needed a forward with JVR's skill set. Also, it could be that Schenn was offered in a package for Ryan, but maybe Anaheim didn't want him. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors and how trade talks have been conducted. Schenn was moved for an asset of equal or greater value. It was a good deal 1 for 1 and it will remain so until one players development over takes the others.

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07-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
Not that Burke should have waited, but JVR is hugely overrated. He was a bust in Philly and that is why they dumped him.

May have been better to package Schenn to the Ducks for Ryan as he is way better than JVR.
hahah you don't know much about Philly

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07-05-2012, 04:05 PM
  #70
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Don't think that's the case. Burke has had an easier time acquiring defensemen than centermen. We don't have a centerman at a calibre and potential of a Phaneuf, Gardiner, Liles, Rielly...
Sure we have. But if you believe that Phaneufs value today is the same as the Phanuef who was talked about along with Crosby and Ovechkin then you must have missed his crash dive from the throne of young stud defenseman and then you will not see that Phanuef is not equal to a first line center but that of a 2nd line center.

Gardiner was acquired in a trade where we sent away a NHL proven D-man, Beauchemin and received Lupul a NHL proven winger and Gardiner a defensive prospect in return. Point is, the proven defender was valued the most.

When he traded away Kabs, a rental he received Colborne a center prospect, a 1st and a 2nd round pick. That is really good value for a rental.

Point is, if of equal level of talent the goalie is valued higher then the defender who is valued higher then the center who is valued higher then the winger.

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07-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #71
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Point is, if of equal level of talent the goalie is valued higher then the defender who is valued higher then the center who is valued higher then the winger.
Ignoring your other flawed comments, the fact that goaltenders of equal talent level on average return less than any other position, throws your entire argument out the window.

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07-05-2012, 04:15 PM
  #72
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Agreed - Schenn's value was at an all time low. Unless they packaged him up with some other pieces for a #1C, he wouldn't have gotten better value. It was a pure hockey trade to fit organization needs - and in addition to that, both players were underperforming and needed a fresh start.
Who says Schenn needed a fresh start in regards to a different city? He would have been getting his fresh start with Carlyle in a system that would set him up to succeed rather than fail with Wilson's system.

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07-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #73
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Frankly, even steven trade.

A coup if they convert JVR back to the C he was before he hit the pro s.
Pretty much all of the highly talented players play centre before they become pros. You don't even need to look outside of our own organization to see that. Two of our most important assets (Kessel, Kadri) come from that background. JVR is more effective on the wing.

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07-05-2012, 04:20 PM
  #74
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Not that Burke should have waited, but JVR is hugely overrated. He was a bust in Philly and that is why they dumped him.

May have been better to package Schenn to the Ducks for Ryan as he is way better than JVR.
Come on, JVR already played like a star for them in the playoffs. They just have too much depth for him to get top minutes.

You're not getting Ryan for just Schenn.

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07-05-2012, 04:29 PM
  #75
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No but if you compare players of equal potential the net minder wins over the defender who wins over the center who wins over the winger.
Wingers are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to positions of value of equal players.

Defensemen always ranked as are more important positional needs to teams than wingers do.. A good center can turn an average winger into a good one statistically.

If you trade a Dman straight for a Winger of equal value in a hockey trade then the team getting the the higher ranking position already has a leg up on the trade.

We're not making this up on pure opinion, as this same concept has been around the NHL for the long time. Look at the recent Suter & Parise signings as a example of DMan and Winger.. Both have identical contracts while Suter was a 7 goal 46 point dman getting paid $98 mil and Parise has been a 40 goal 85-95 point winger and earned the same amount. Same earning potential so same relative value, but unequal point production..


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