Keep cap space, hunt for bargains, keep your powder dry for the trade deadline and wait to see what you really need.
Right now D is Mez, Kimmo, Coburn, Schenn, Grossman, MAB and Gus, plus several other NHL?AHL type guys. That's pretty good.
O is Giroux, Vora, Hartnell, Read, Cooter, Briere, Schenn, Simmer, Max, Wellwood and a bunch of energy guys. That's pretty good.
If Bryz returns to earth, this isn't bad. Then when the cap retracts - no way that the majority of the league can afford the level it is at now, the Flyers pounce.
If Holmgren - actually Big Ed - can be patient for 1/2 a year the Flyers could be a top team for the rest of the decade. If they do something stupid in haste (give up 1/2 the team for Weber) they can repent at leisure. Hold on to some draft picks for a couple of years build some inventory of players.
It is completely likely that Weber goes no where this summer.
THANK YOU! I couldn't agree more. Let's be friends.
"He’s still in disbelief," Kevin Epp, one of Weber’s agents at Titan Sports Management, told ESPN.com Thursday. "They were so close this year in terms of the team’s chances. They really had a shot. Shea believed there was a good chance that Ryan would stay there. So, right now, Shea is still processing this news."
Weber can't believe Suter left the team. Trouble really seems to be brewing in Nashville.
I'm warming to the idea of a 1 year, 8.4 million OS.
Here's the argument, as I laid it out on the trade board:
Quote:
If a team really believes that they can land him next year at UFA, but can't work out an acceptable trade now with Nashville right now, Weber's signing a 1 year, 8.4 million offer sheet has two possible advantageous outcomes/
1) If Nashville does not match, the club [Flyers] gets Weber for 2012-13 at the price of two (presumably late) 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd. That's a bit steep, perhaps, but it also gives you an entire year to negotiate an extension. When you consider that his rights alone would easily go for a 2nd at the draft next year, and that the going rate for a veteran top-4 (let alone top-pairing) defenseman at the deadline is a 1st, the extra 1st + 3rd isn't an outrageous price for the first three-quarters of the season.
2) if Nashville does match the OS, they cannot trade Weber for the next calendar year, or, in this case, until he becomes UFA on July 1. This would prevent another team from acquiring and extending Weber before the Flyers have the opportunity to present their big-$ deal next summer.
I'm warming to the idea of a 1 year, 8.4 million OS.
Here's the argument, as I laid it out on the trade board:
Thoughts?
they cant trade him at all if her signs an offer sheet?
...learn something new everyday
i say do it....try a 1 yr 9/10 mil...if its one yr who cares what the hit is.... spend all the cap space we have so that nsh is less likely to match...if he signs one with us, maybe that somehow gives us a slight edge next july 1st ?? (assuming nsh matches anything)
they cant trade him at all if her signs an offer sheet?
...learn something new everyday
i say do it....try a 1 yr 9/10 mil...if its one yr who cares what the hit is.... spend all the cap space we have so that nsh is less likely to match...if he signs one with us, maybe that somehow gives us a slight edge next july 1st ??
The 8.4 number was picked for a specific reason: anything higher costs 4 1sts, and then, I think, the risk of losing him next offseason is simply too great. 8.4 is the top-end of the second-highest compensation bracket, so 2 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brozgalov
I would do it if you had any idea if he would sign longterm with us... I mean any bit of information would work.
That's the risk. I suppose technically the Flyers could feel that out now, since they can contact him as RFA, right? (I'm not sure how the rules work here--is it basically just "Drop your offer in the box," or can they actually negotiate?)
Worst case, I suppose, he gets here and you find out he wants to go UFA (or go somewhere in particular)--you can always trade him at that point, and probably recoup most of what you lose to get him.
I'm warming to the idea of a 1 year, 8.4 million OS.
Here's the argument, as I laid it out on the trade board:
Thoughts?
Shrewd. Genius, some might say. Would it damage Homer's working relationship with Poile? Probably. But whatever, this is a business, right? Definitely a move where the risk is worth the reward, even in the event that the Predators match.
The team is more than just Shea Weber away from being a true Stanley Cup contender. For instance, there's "hope" that Meszaros returns to form and becomes the solid defenseman he showed he could be his first season here. There's "hope" that Coburn finally takes that final step in consistency and becomes a dominant defenseman night in and night out that he showed he can be during the final 20 games and the playoffs. There's "hope" that Grossmann can be that crease clearing presence that this team has sorely lacked. There's "hope" that Timonen will return to form and with less minutes, be in better shape come playoff time. There's "hope" that after rescuing Schenn from Toronto that he can be that elite shut down defenseman that's required to win championship. There's "hope" that Schenn and Couturier build off their solid first years and really step it up to the next level in their 2nd year. There's "hope" that Voracek finally brings his game to the next level and becomes a dominant offensive force capable of averaging close to a point per game while playing with Giroux and Hartnell. There's "hope" that Simmonds shows his 28 goals weren't a fluke and he's ready to add another 5 to 10 goals to his career high total. There's "hope" that after being in the league for 10 seasons that Hartnell finally realizes what he needs to do night in and night out to be successful.
That's expecting a lot and right now, I just don't see everything falling into place, especially when you consider how young this club is. Right now, I think the best thing this franchise can do is let the young players grow into their roles and take their lumps accordingly. Adding a guy like Weber now is the wrong time to do so. The club isn't ready to challenge for the Stanley Cup yet. People can rip on me all they want, but it's clear, this is not yet a Cup contending team. They are close, but they need to be patient with some guys so that they can make it to the next level. Once those guys have really rounded out their games and they are ready to challenge, then you add a guy like Weber.
The team is more than just Shea Weber away from being a true Stanley Cup contender. For instance, there's "hope" that Meszaros returns to form and becomes the solid defenseman he showed he could be his first season here. There's "hope" that Coburn finally takes that final step in consistency and becomes a dominant defenseman night in and night out that he showed he can be during the final 20 games and the playoffs. There's "hope" that Grossmann can be that crease clearing presence that this team has sorely lacked. There's "hope" that Timonen will return to form and with less minutes, be in better shape come playoff time. There's "hope" that after rescuing Schenn from Toronto that he can be that elite shut down defenseman that's required to win championship. There's "hope" that Schenn and Couturier build off their solid first years and really step it up to the next level in their 2nd year. There's "hope" that Voracek finally brings his game to the next level and becomes a dominant offensive force capable of averaging close to a point per game while playing with Giroux and Hartnell. There's "hope" that Simmonds shows his 28 goals weren't a fluke and he's ready to add another 5 to 10 goals to his career high total. There's "hope" that after being in the league for 10 seasons that Hartnell finally realizes what he needs to do night in and night out to be successful.
That's expecting a lot and right now, I just don't see everything falling into place, especially when you consider how young this club is. Right now, I think the best thing this franchise can do is let the young players grow into their roles and take their lumps accordingly. Adding a guy like Weber now is the wrong time to do so. The club isn't ready to challenge for the Stanley Cup yet. People can rip on me all they want, but it's clear, this is not yet a Cup contending team. They are close, but they need to be patient with some guys so that they can make it to the next level. Once those guys have really rounded out their games and they are ready to challenge, then you add a guy like Weber.
I don't disagree with much of this--except your implicit premise that a guy like Weber will be available at the right time, and that the team will have the assets to go get him without rendering moot the developmental process you're talking about.
Would be better to wait it out. If the preds can't sign weber, there's no way they are going to let him walk like suter. The flyers have the young talent to deal, as long as they have a contract in place when they do it.
The team is more than just Shea Weber away from being a true Stanley Cup contender. For instance, there's "hope" that Meszaros returns to form and becomes the solid defenseman he showed he could be his first season here. There's "hope" that Coburn finally takes that final step in consistency and becomes a dominant defenseman night in and night out that he showed he can be during the final 20 games and the playoffs. There's "hope" that Grossmann can be that crease clearing presence that this team has sorely lacked. There's "hope" that Timonen will return to form and with less minutes, be in better shape come playoff time. There's "hope" that after rescuing Schenn from Toronto that he can be that elite shut down defenseman that's required to win championship. There's "hope" that Schenn and Couturier build off their solid first years and really step it up to the next level in their 2nd year. There's "hope" that Voracek finally brings his game to the next level and becomes a dominant offensive force capable of averaging close to a point per game while playing with Giroux and Hartnell. There's "hope" that Simmonds shows his 28 goals weren't a fluke and he's ready to add another 5 to 10 goals to his career high total. There's "hope" that after being in the league for 10 seasons that Hartnell finally realizes what he needs to do night in and night out to be successful.
That's expecting a lot and right now, I just don't see everything falling into place, especially when you consider how young this club is. Right now, I think the best thing this franchise can do is let the young players grow into their roles and take their lumps accordingly. Adding a guy like Weber now is the wrong time to do so. The club isn't ready to challenge for the Stanley Cup yet. People can rip on me all they want, but it's clear, this is not yet a Cup contending team. They are close, but they need to be patient with some guys so that they can make it to the next level. Once those guys have really rounded out their games and they are ready to challenge, then you add a guy like Weber.
Not that anything you said is wrong, but is there a single team in this league that doesnt have the same questions?
Vancouver.....Kesler needs to prove his consistency...Schneider still has a lot to prove...Edler's gotta rebound.....Scoring depth behind the Sedins still appears to be very, very shallow......
New York.....Will Gaborik bounce back after his surgery...can McDonagh prove this year wasnt a fluke...Will MDZ be able to round out his game and take that next step...Can Stepan establish himself as a dominant offensive player (a la Voracek)....Kreider needs to prove that his post season wasnt just a fluke.......
Pittsburgh......Michalek trade leaves a hole on the back end...is Martin going to be a pile of crap again....will Fleury play like a real NHL goaltender.......
Hell, even the Kings still have question marks....Doughty still hasnt proven his consistency....Carter and had a very underwhelming season last year and needs to bounce back....Voynov needs to build on a decent rookie campaign.....Richards wasnt the Selke calibre player that he's capable of last year for the most part.......
It's silly to point to all the question marks on our roster when every single team in the league is dependent on "hope" in one way or another. I'm not saying we are the best in the league, but we are a young team that did well last season, and now we are one year older. With Weber on the back end, there is no doubt in my mind that this team is a contender.
I don't disagree with much of this--except your implicit premise that a guy like Weber will be available at the right time, and that the team will have the assets to go get him without rendering moot the developmental process you're talking about.
I'm sure that if Weber isn't available, they can certainly find a defenseman that will be available. As for the assets, I think as it gets closer to the deadline, I think you'll see a team look for draft picks and prospects, not roster players. I'm trying to think of the last big deadline move in which a team acquired a top defender for players off the roster. Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree with how the club will move forward. I think the status quo is perfect for the time being. Don't forget, there will be teams that will not be making the playoffs that will probably dangle very good players for picks and prospects......
I'm sure that if Weber isn't available, they can certainly find a defenseman that will be available. As for the assets, I think as it gets closer to the deadline, I think you'll see a team look for draft picks and prospects, not roster players. I'm trying to think of the last big deadline move in which a team acquired a top defender for players off the roster. Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree with how the club will move forward. I think the status quo is perfect for the time being. Don't forget, there will be teams that will not be making the playoffs that will probably dangle very good players for picks and prospects......
I'm actually fine with basically going forward with the existing roster--so I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do.
My point, I guess, is that this is a way to get Weber, or preserve the option to get him in the future, that doesn't cost any of our young players. I just wouldn't blink at trading 2 future 1sts, a future 2nd (which we will give away anyway), and a future 3rd for Weber this summer.
If he does sign a one year offer sheet, what would be the earliest that he could sign his next deal with us? Because if it is possible and the Flyers would be willing to do it they could sign him for the 10 mil(if they are willing to lose the 4 first, which would really hurt) and during those negotiations basically agree to a long term deal. So sign him to the offer sheet and once it goes through, sign him to the long term deal.
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.500m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Shea Weber ($10.000m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Michael Leighton ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,971,944; BONUSES: $2,705,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,228,056
Last edited by FLYERSFAN18: 07-05-2012 at 04:23 PM.
Reason: added cap gekk
If he does sign a one year offer sheet, what would be the earliest that he could sign his next deal with us? Because if it is possible and the Flyers would be willing to do it they could sign him for the 10 mil(if they are willing to lose the 4 first, which would really hurt) and during those negotiations basically agree to a long term deal. So sign him to the offer sheet and once it goes through, sign him to the long term deal.
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.500m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Shea Weber ($10.000m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Michael Leighton ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,971,944; BONUSES: $2,705,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,228,056
Nashville would match.
They are pissed off enough at Suter that I believe they would even match the max. Especially from us because those 4 draft picks wouldn't be very high ones.
So let's just say the match, Weber now can't be traded within the next full year. That means he's going to the market on July 1 2013 or resigns with Nashville. When he goes to free agency everything we saw the last couple of days will be seen as peanuts.
If weber is willing to sign an OS from us, it probably means he'd like to resign. It's not a guarantee or anything...but it means we're high on his list.
And when we win the cup, he'll surely resign
The problem with 8.4 vs 10 is Nash might match 8.4
I'd give 4 late 1sts for 27 year old Weber no doubt.
Nashville would match.
They are pissed off enough at Suter that I believe they would even match the max. Especially from us because those 4 draft picks wouldn't be very high ones.
So let's just say the match, Weber now can't be traded within the next full year. That means he's going to the market on July 1 2013 or resigns with Nashville. When he goes to free agency everything we saw the last couple of days will be seen as peanuts.
Maybe, but that's not a bad scenario for the Flyers either. If Nashville matches, the trade-and-extend scenario goes out the window. Weber would be guaranteed to hit the open market on July 1, 2013.
Personally, I would pump the one-year offer up as high as the Flyers can fit under the cap. It's a gesture of commitment to Weber that could help us re-sign him and doesn't have long-term cap consequences.
Last edited by Damaged Goods: 07-05-2012 at 05:57 PM.
But we don't know the deal that they offered Suter. If it was straight up 90/13 then they could give him 7 a year.
We could CRAZY front load the deal do he gets near 30 mil in one year and they might not have that kind of cash liquidity.
I think they easily match 8.4 mil, and if we do this they are PISSED at us from here on out.
They are much more likely to match the long-term offer sheet (if Weber even signs -- which I doubt he would do). This impasse isn't about Nashville lacking cash for just Weber alone. It's a question of asset management given that Weber might not be willing to stay. If Weber wants to have an exit strategy, signing a long-term OS would probably backfire on him and get him stuck in Nashville for 10+ years. It leaves him too vulnerable in regards to plotting his own future. I don't see that happening.
Weber would be more likely to sign the one-year OS because it doesn't threaten his status as UFA in a year from now. And Nashville would be more likely to find themselves in a pickle because you make them face an all-or-nothing situation where they get 4 1st round picks vs absolutely nothing if he walks.
Last edited by Damaged Goods: 07-05-2012 at 08:00 PM.
They are much more likely to match the long-term offer sheet (if Weber even signs -- which I doubt he would do). This impasse here isn't about Nashville lacking cash for just Weber alone. It's a question of asset management given that Weber might not be willing to stay. If Weber wants to have an exit strategy, signing a long-term OS would probably backfire on him and get him stuck in Nashville for 10+ years. It leaves him too vulnerable in regards to plotting his own future. I don't see that happening.
Weber would be more likely to sign the one-year OS because it doesn't threaten his status as UFA in a year from now. And Nashville would be more likely to find themselves in a pickle because you make them face an all-or-nothing situation where they get 4 1st round picks vs absolutely nothing if he walks.
all true. I still don't know if they have the finances for 30m out in one calendar year, in addition to their other obligations.
Huge risk though if we got him for 4 firsts and he walks from us next year. And we couldn't trade him or sign him to an extension during the year, correct?
