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Should Burke have waited to trade schenn?

View Poll Results: If we waited, would screen have fetched us more assets
Yes! Schenn would have gotten us a better package than JVR 11 7.14%
No, we would gave gotten the same or less 143 92.86%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-05-2012, 05:32 PM
  #76
johnny_rudeboy
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Ignoring your other flawed comments, the fact that goaltenders of equal talent level on average return less than any other position, throws your entire argument out the window.
Care to give some examples?

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07-05-2012, 05:33 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
Pretty much all of the highly talented players play centre before they become pros. You don't even need to look outside of our own organization to see that. Two of our most important assets (Kessel, Kadri) come from that background. JVR is more effective on the wing.
I'm not sure that JVR was put on wing due to lack of ability to play the position.

Carter/Rich/Bri/Gir/Schen is some hella depth to climb over to get a shot.

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07-05-2012, 05:34 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Wingers are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to positions of value of equal players.

Defensemen always ranked as are more important positional needs to teams than wingers do.. A good center can turn an average winger into a good one statistically.

If you trade a Dman straight for a Winger of equal value in a hockey trade then the team getting the the higher ranking position already has a leg up on the trade.

We're not making this up on pure opinion, as this same concept has been around the NHL for the long time.
Don't the skill-sets of the players in question have something to do with this, and not just the position they play? If I trade Ovechkin for Johnny Malkin, do I win the deal because of the position they play?

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07-05-2012, 05:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
Who says Schenn needed a fresh start in regards to a different city? He would have been getting his fresh start with Carlyle in a system that would set him up to succeed rather than fail with Wilson's system.
Phaneuf did not like him. Probably felt that Schenn would some day take the C from him. So Burke trade away Schenn who was not drafted by him and protect his golden boy who he traded for.

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07-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
Don't the skill-sets of the players in question have something to do with this, and not just the position they play? If I trade Ovechkin for Johnny Malkin, do I win the deal because of the position they play?
Do you see them as equal?

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07-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Care to give some examples?
Bryz is a good one imo

Even the Luongo trade to Van wasn't mind blowing which I think is important since the Canucks want more now then they paid for him then and his value is not as high now as it was then.

Roy comes to mind as well

Not scrap returns mind you but these are some of the better goalies to get traded.

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07-05-2012, 05:44 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
Don't the skill-sets of the players in question have something to do with this, and not just the position they play? If I trade Ovechkin for Johnny Malkin, do I win the deal because of the position they play?
Pittsburgh wouldn't trade league MVP Malkin for OV straight up even if they believed Ovechkin would prosper on Crosby's wing. You don't see elite centers change teams very often, unless finance plays a part. Why do you think Kovalchuk, Hossa, Parise, Gaborik all wingers etc make it to free agency while teams lock up their star centers and they seldom hit the market. Boston made sure to lock up centers Savard, Bergeron and Krecji and then they didn't have room or want to pay Kessel so they traded him.

Need a winger Bobby Ryan, Rick Nash etc are all available for the right price and being shopped, but you don't see many top Dmen or Centers on the market or teams would be lining up.

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07-05-2012, 05:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post

Had Leafs waited as the OP suggest his value would have increased with more teams now wanting to man up to compete with what Minny did, and simply law of supply and demand take over as the market shrinks for available Dmen their value increases.
This....

I think people are just polling to whether it was a "good" trade. Yes it was a good trade but the question is: could we have gotten MORE if we waited since the market is super thin for serviceable Dmen.

We know Schenn isn't a Suter (at the moment) but with the signings of Carle and Suter, Schenn becomes the one of the best Dmen available in terms of value and potential.

for example, Parise is off the market now and teams are bidding for Nash & Ryan. So their value has gone UP since the signings... that's my question.

If we didn't trade philly, they would have a HUGE gap in D since they didn't sign carle. IMO our need for top line wingers << their need for D. Perhaps maybe we could have gotten Couturier?......anyone. I'm on the JVR bandwagon but couturier is the REAL piece we want from philly.

Couturier: #1C potential, roster player (can jump in NOW), 6'3 (big body).


Last edited by goonx: 07-05-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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07-05-2012, 05:48 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Pittsburgh wouldn't trade league MVP Malkin for OV straight up even if they believed Ovechkin would prosper on Crosby's wing. You don't see elite centers change teams very often, unless finance plays a part. Why do you think Kovalchuk, Hossa, Parise, Gaborik all wingers etc make it to free agency while teams lock up their star centers and they seldom hit the market. Boston made sure to lock up centers Savard, Bergeron and Krecji and then they didn't have room or want to pay Kessel so they traded him.

Need a winger Bobby Ryan, Rick Nash etc are all available for the right price and being shopped, but you don't see many top Dmen or Centers on the market or teams would be lining up.
The man does have a point but I don't think Schenn will ever be considered as an elite d-man. He will be a solid NHL player but not elite. JVR has a chance to be elite......that being said we still need a centre.

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07-05-2012, 05:55 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Vexxed14 View Post
Bryz is a good one imo

Even the Luongo trade to Van wasn't mind blowing which I think is important since the Canucks want more now then they paid for him then and his value is not as high now as it was then.

Roy comes to mind as well

Not scrap returns mind you but these are some of the better goalies to get traded.
I just knew you would bring up Luongo (I will not resign with Florida) and Roy (I will never play for Montreal again). Bad examples, but fact is, most of the times you will find starting goaltenders who are traded they will be bad examples because no club is trading away one of them unless there is a lot of bad blood or there is a better goalie pushing them out.

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07-05-2012, 05:57 PM
  #86
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I'd have been more than content to keep Schenn and hope a change of system did him wonders, but I don't think we would have seen a bigger return than JVR. I think this was a good hockey deal, with both GMs taking a gamble on guys with potential in their positions coming off underwhelming performances.

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07-05-2012, 05:58 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by goonx View Post
This....

I think people are just polling to whether it was a "good" trade. Yes it was a good trade but the question is: could we have gotten MORE if we waited since the market is super thin for serviceable Dmen.

We know Schenn isn't a Suter (at the moment) but with the signings of Carle and Suter, Schenn becomes the one of the best Dmen available in terms of value and potential.

for example, Parise is off the market now and teams are bidding for Nash & Ryan. So their value has gone UP since the signings... that's my question.

If we didn't trade philly, they would have a HUGE gap in D since they didn't sign carle. IMO our need for top line wingers << their need for D. Perhaps maybe we could have gotten Couturier?......
We've heard rumours for months about Philly offering JVR dating back to the trade deadline and trying to get Schenn out of Toronto and Burke resisted to make the trade previously.

Heck when Elliott Friedman suggested that Schenn might be traded as early as the entry draft, Burke shot back and wanted HNIC exercise some quality control content screening as Schenn was not being shopped Burke claimed loudly. The suddenly just like Friedman suggested Schenn was dealt at the draft for a player Burke could have had months earlier. Burke thought he was likely getting Justin Schultz and was creating a hole for him, then dealing Schenn for JVR and inserting free wallet Schultz into Schenn's former spot would have been a windfall move for the Leafs. That would explain the timing of the Schenn trade prior to UFA season as it was predicated on Schultz availability beforehand.

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07-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
I just knew you would bring up Luongo (I will not resign with Florida) and Roy (I will never play for Montreal again). Bad examples, but fact is, most of the times you will find starting goaltenders who are traded they will be bad examples because no club is trading away one of them unless there is a lot of bad blood or there is a better goalie pushing them out.
Is it a bad example? I know they are playing it off well but the reason teams aren't biting is because they believe Luongo will not want to stay in Vancouver.

Granted it hasn't gotten to that point yet but it is ignorant to ignore the distinct possibility.

We can say 33 yr old 10yr deal Luongo that just lost his job and it fits right into your logic.

Come on with the Schenn stuff, big difference with being shopped and Philly coming back with the 1 for 1 offer.

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07-05-2012, 06:00 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
The man does have a point but I don't think Schenn will ever be considered as an elite d-man. He will be a solid NHL player but not elite. JVR has a chance to be elite......that being said we still need a centre.
And that is why I am rather ok with the deal. Schenn as a top 4 defender is more important to his team then JvR as a top 6 winger but JvR´s higher potential makes the deal good value for both sides imo.

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07-05-2012, 06:05 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
We've heard rumours for months about Philly offering JVR dating back to the trade deadline and trying to get Schenn out of Toronto and Burke resisted to make the trade previously.

Heck when Elliott Friedman suggested that Schenn might be traded as early as the entry draft, Burke shot back and wanted HNIC to do some quality control content screening as Schenn was not being shopped he claimed. The suddenly just like Friedman suggested Schenn was dealt at the draft for a player Burke could have had months earlier.
True, but i think Coutourier could be had for Schenn+. Their defense would look really weak if Schenn wasn't there. They're in the "win now" mentality and probably looking to add a few pieces this year to push deeper in the playoffs by trading away prospects.

I'm not saying Schenn is "the" piece they want but during playoff runs they would want a D-men like Schenn paired with a vet that can be there to provide some shutdown minutes when the game is on the line. Blocks shots and shutdown D, the stuff you want during the playoffs. With a vet goalie like Bryz, he can definitely bail the D out when Schenn has his "laspes"

Giroux
Briere
B.Schenn
Coutourier (<----- currently 4th on the centre depth chart and could be had for the right price)


Last edited by goonx: 07-05-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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07-05-2012, 06:09 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Do you see them as equal?
No, and that's my point. All things being equal about the player, I understand the theory. I even agree with it, to an extent. But no two players are equal. I value JVR's potential skill-set even more than I value Schenn's potential skill-set, and regardless of what position the players play, I want the "best" player. I think we may have gotten that with this trade.

And look, now he's even being tried at Center. Maybe he will fill a positional need.

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07-05-2012, 06:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
No, and that's my point. All things being equal about the player, I understand the theory. I even agree with it, to an extent. But no two players are equal. I value JVR's potential skill-set even more than I value Schenn's potential skill-set, and regardless of what position the players play, I want the "best" player. I think we may have gotten that with this trade.

And look, now he's even being tried at Center. Maybe he will fill a positional need.
And the difference in skill set is why the deal is ok. A lower ranked Schenn managed to get a higher ranked JvR because the defender is more important then the winger.

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07-05-2012, 06:12 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
We've heard rumours for months about Philly offering JVR dating back to the trade deadline and trying to get Schenn out of Toronto and Burke resisted to make the trade previously.

Heck when Elliott Friedman suggested that Schenn might be traded as early as the entry draft, Burke shot back and wanted HNIC exercise some quality control content screening as Schenn was not being shopped Burke claimed loudly. The suddenly just like Friedman suggested Schenn was dealt at the draft for a player Burke could have had months earlier. Burke thought he was likely getting Justin Schultz and was creating a hole for him, then dealing Schenn for JVR and inserting free wallet Schultz into Schenn's former spot would have been a windfall move for the Leafs. That would explain the timing of the Schenn trade prior to UFA season as it was predicated on Schultz availability beforehand.
Maybe Burke was the one offering Schenn and Philly finally caved in. None of us know how the trade came to be.

You've got to jump on opportunities when they arise and seem right, especially when it comes to trades. JVR a year or two from now could have jumped into Philly's top line and would have been untouchable. I doubt Schenn suddenly develops top 2 potential in the next couple of years and probably wouldn't have been able to get JVR straight up.
Or JVR suddenly drops to the Flyers 4th line (I doubt that) and becomes worthless and Schenn has his value skyrocket. Nobody knows the future but like others have said, I believe JVR's ceiling is higher than Schenn's ceiling when it comes to the future.


Burke gambled by trading Schenn now but he's taking a pretty good gamble imo by taking JVR when his value is low.

Forgot to mention, I doubt Burke traded Schenn just to try and sign Schultz afterwards. If anything it's because he drafted Rielly and Finn at the draft that Schenn became more available.

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07-05-2012, 06:19 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
And the difference in skill set is why the deal is ok. A lower ranked Schenn managed to get a higher ranked JvR because the defender is more important then the winger.
I don't know if Schenn is really lower-ranked at the moment than JVR though, but I get the sentiment.

I see it as just a good hockey trade for both teams where we won't have a good idea of who "won" the deal for another 3-5 years (if ever).

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07-05-2012, 06:25 PM
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I don't know if Schenn is really lower-ranked at the moment than JVR though, but I get the sentiment.

I see it as just a good hockey trade for both teams where we won't have a good idea of who "won" the deal for another 3-5 years (if ever).
Lets say like this, had they been drafted the same year JvR would still had been taken firs of the two seeing as his ceiling is higher and still is. But now when they are tried in the NHL Luke as a defender gets equal value to JvR despite JvR´s higher potential. But as you said, a good hockey trade.

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07-05-2012, 06:36 PM
  #96
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http://editorinleaf.com/2012/07/05/c...enter-for-now/


Well well well, i'm glad they are taking my advice.

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07-05-2012, 06:54 PM
  #97
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Luke's high end potential at this point is to be Chris Phillips
JVR's high end potential is Jamie Benn/Joffrey Lupul

I'd rather have the 30 goal scorer than the slow shot blocker.

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07-05-2012, 06:59 PM
  #98
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Wingers are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to positions of value of equal players.

Defensemen always ranked as are more important positional needs to teams than wingers do.. A good center can turn an average winger into a good one statistically.

If you trade a Dman straight for a Winger of equal value in a hockey trade then the team getting the the higher ranking position already has a leg up on the trade.

We're not making this up on pure opinion, as this same concept has been around the NHL for the long time. Look at the recent Suter & Parise signings as a example of DMan and Winger.. Both have identical contracts while Suter was a 7 goal 46 point dman getting paid $98 mil and Parise has been a 40 goal 85-95 point winger and earned the same amount. Same earning potential so same relative value, but unequal point production..
Parise has gotten 85-95 points and/or 40 goals in his career once in 7 years, 4 years ago. And did you seriously just compare points from a winger to points from a defenseman?

Parise falls out of top-10/20/30 lists all the time. Suter is consistently regarded as a top-5 defenceman in the league.

You are arguing against your own point.

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07-05-2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Care to give some examples?
Every goalie traded in the past.

Hell, some (Bryzgalov) are given away on waivers because there is no market. Some (Elliot) come out of nowhere, are signed for free, and become the best statistical goaltender for the season.

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07-05-2012, 07:05 PM
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Boston made sure to lock up centers Savard
Boy, I wonder how they got him in the first place!

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