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MTL/DET - Markov

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Old
07-05-2012, 02:16 PM
  #151
solo16
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
And it makes you look like the annoying know-it-all dips***t who sat at the front of the class because you know all the answers and wouldn't share your little nugget of useless information with the others who asked you about it before in this thread.

Bravo, buy yourself a box of gold and silver stars and stick five of them on your forehead. You most certainly "earned" them. lol.
Its cool buddy. You swung for the fences to have a big moment, and tried to post a PWNED response. You aggressively put down my position based on something you thought was fact and pointed and laughed. It is kind of like going for a hail marry pass to win the game only to realize you can only throw the ball 40 yards. Thud on the 30 yard line.

I was somewhat nice pointing out your noodle arm but then you throw this hostile response out. Chill out dude. If you are going to go into battle wearing your forum armor either check your facts or be prepared to look stupid.

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Old
07-05-2012, 02:16 PM
  #152
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Montreal has done a good job drafting, maybe even great....but they've done a piss-poor job of developing.

Detroit has done an excellent job drafting and (this is the big key to all this) developing talent over the last decade. While there aren't many "home runs" they did hit enough doubles and singles that allowed them to ice a highly competitve and contending team for YEARS.

But back on point.

IF Markov were to be traded to Detroit, I "could" see them offering up a prospect OR a pick (3rd, maybe 2nd). But honestly that wouldn't be enough for Montreal to move him....so.......

/thread

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07-05-2012, 02:21 PM
  #153
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I would offer one of Oullette and Sproul. (value low first high second)
And one of Pulk / Tartar. (value low first high second)
And one of Eaves (4th) /Abdlekader (2nd or 3rd) /Miller (4th)

I am not sure I would offer anymore. I would perfer to keep Oullette and Sproul if possible maybe replace them with a 2nd or 3rd. I assume you would want a quality Dman prospect. Kindl would possibly be added or swapped if you wanted him. All the prospects listed above are players Detroit wants to keep and are included in their key prospects right now.

I do not think that is bad value for Markov but healthy he is definitively worth more.

Not sure if that collection of players/prospects would entice MTL.

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07-05-2012, 02:23 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I would offer one of Oullette and Sproul. (value low first high second)
And one of Pulk / Tartar. (value low first high second)
And one of Eaves (4th) /Abdlekader (2nd or 3rd) /Miller (4th)

I am not sure I would offer anymore. I would perfer to keep Oullette and Sproul if possible maybe replace them with a 2nd or 3rd. I assume you would want a quality Dman prospect. Kindl would possibly be added or swapped if you wanted him.

I do not think that is bad value for Markov but healthy he is definitively worth more.
Well, I could see a deal around Kindl, he would replace Markov's minutes on the big club.

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07-05-2012, 02:33 PM
  #155
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Well, I could see a deal around Kindl, he would replace Markov's minutes on the big club.
Kindl is our depth guy with top 4 upside. He is dirt cheap and is a great number 7. That said we can trade him if it gets us a top 4.

Wings D Depth Chart:
Kronwall
Smith
White
Ericsson
Quincey
Kindl

Kindl+Tartar+3rd if necessary would be pretty painless for the Wings but offer some quality NHL ready players.

Only downfall is Tartar is a bit small and I know MTL is trying to get bigger. Tartar is somewhat gritty more so than Nyquist, Pulk. Jarnkrok may be the grittiest but hes small too. I seem him as a Hudler (surprisingly gritty player) with more size, more speed, but a bit less hockey sense. Think the Ian White of Forwards.

Only big players we have with trade value are Sheahan (untouchable imo) and Tvrdon (not a blue chipper yet and not NHL ready, but he is a quickest rising prospect at the moment, alot of wings fans already consider him a top prospect. I do not but if he has a good season he will be quite an asset).

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07-05-2012, 02:41 PM
  #156
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I'd really like to see Kindl go to a team that would play him and give him a shot to develop.

I think he could turn out to be a great #3 or 4 if he gets to play some minutes on a team that is re-building and not exactly contending for the cup, plus Montreal is my second favorite team so I would love for him to go there and be successful.

Another guy I would like the wings to trade so he gets a shot is Joakim Andersson, because he would be a pretty damn good shutdown 4th line center...but he's just more of a toss in on a trade and doesn't really have value, I just want him on a team not so logjammed at center.

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07-05-2012, 03:12 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Its cool buddy. You swung for the fences to have a big moment, and tried to post a PWNED response. You aggressively put down my position based on something you thought was fact and pointed and laughed. It is kind of like going for a hail marry pass to win the game only to realize you can only throw the ball 40 yards. Thud on the 30 yard line.

I was somewhat nice pointing out your noodle arm but then you throw this hostile response out. Chill out dude. If you are going to go into battle wearing your forum armor either check your facts or be prepared to look stupid.
Lol. Detroit knows about a list because they are on it. I am so PWNED.

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Old
07-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
Even with his injuries Markov is getting way underrated here.
for crying out loud its not like he lost a leg. give him 20 games to up his tempo and timing, and barring any freak incident, we'll have our good ol' DrDrei back.

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07-05-2012, 04:43 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Lol. Detroit knows about a list because they are on it. I am so PWNED.
Every team was on the list... For example Mtl was 21st.

HFboards updated their organizational rankings in the spring. Why are you a member/poster here if you do not read the articles or know anything about how they work?

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07-05-2012, 05:05 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
This deal only happens at the deadline, if at all. Markov needs to show not only can he stay healthy but that his game has not deteriorated.
This^^^^ The Habs shouldn't move Markov now at all. Hope he stays unbroken and move him at the deadline before he breaks.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I didn't say he was a sure shot, far from there.


I think that the embarrassment is on you buddy for not being able to make the difference between a guy who is injury-prone (see Salo) and a guy who has had a couple of serious injuries making him miss several games (see Markov and Cole).

But hey, whatever.
WOW how can you honestly believe that?? Its pretty simple Markov plays-gets hurt-gets better-plays again-gets hurt and so on=injury prone. Only a Habs fan How is it that Leafs fans have this bad rap??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
since when will prospects be enough to ditch our best D?
Super HOMER^^^^ Again astounded that Leaf fans are considered the worst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Brisebois View Post
Are you missing the point that detroit has nothing to trade that is equal to his diminished value?

This is the post I'm going to use when some one tries to say Leaf fans are the worst, sorry but the worst HOMERS I have seen are Hab and EDM fans. Sorry but Thats my opinion .

In closing Markov's value is almost a negative right now due to the $$ and his fragile nature but if he shows his injuries are behind him and he has a few yrs left then his value shoots up to top 10-15 D in the NHL

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07-05-2012, 05:13 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Every team was on the list... For example Mtl was 21st.

HFboards updated their organizational rankings in the spring. Why are you a member/poster here if you do not read the articles or know anything about how they work?
Probably because I don't care what they write about or how their system works.

On the Habs board we're close to 25,000 posts about the 2012 draft and who we drafted. Our discussions were way more in-depth than anyone else's here.

Plus, I consider the people who post on the Hab's forum to be more knowledgeable than what HF posts or other teams fans discuss.

There are some other teams fans I enjoy talking with like Columbus, Vancouver, Minnesota or Colorado but most I don't really care for.

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07-05-2012, 05:18 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Turtleneck Plek View Post
Detroit fans, please read this. I'm not even trying to join this debate, but the claims of Markov's injury-proneness are greatly exaggerated. Every player who misses significant time due to injury is not injury-prone. Bad luck happens, bad medical decisions happen, basically **** happens.

If anybody does not agree with this, please explain to me how getting a tendon cut by a skate is being injury-prone. Please do also tell me how being misdiagnosed and being brought back too early is being injury prone. I'd love to hear you guys spin this one off.

I do agree that Markov's value is currently very low, but that's due more to uncertainties related to his play level than worries about injury.
I dunno Turtleneck, I agree to an extent...but if you miss lots of time than until you come back for a long period of time that injury risk is there IMO.

I'm excited about Markov potentially playing top 4 minutes next season. Don't know what will happen, but I'm willing to wait and find out.

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Old
07-05-2012, 05:33 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
Like Markov has any value right now. I'll give you a conditional 7th on the condition that he plays 75 games.
This doesn't even make sense. If he actually plays 75 Games or more, why a 7th. I mean, you can't say "because he's injured!" If he can play 75 games at a top 4 D level or greater he's worth a 2nd at least. The whole idea of a conditional pick makes sense, that IF he plays. Sure, but once he does play 75 games, he's not worth a 7th.

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07-05-2012, 05:38 PM
  #164
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Ugh, read on into thread and what a joke on both sides. Man, markov isn't worth a fortune but he's not worth peanuts either. You can't expect a top prospect or a multi piece package guys. IF markov comes in next year and has a solid year with two-way presence and 40+ points he'd fetch a solid return(nothing crazy but maybe a 2 piece package in the 2nd+B prospect). As of now, not worth much, too much risk. He'll bounce back though. Unlike say Subban, Markov's game has zero little to do with speed. He passes the puck out, so his speed or whatever isn't really a huge deal as he rarely to never rushes it. He's a positional d-man.

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07-05-2012, 06:43 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Ugh, read on into thread and what a joke on both sides. Man, markov isn't worth a fortune but he's not worth peanuts either. You can't expect a top prospect or a multi piece package guys. IF markov comes in next year and has a solid year with two-way presence and 40+ points he'd fetch a solid return(nothing crazy but maybe a 2 piece package in the 2nd+B prospect). As of now, not worth much, too much risk. He'll bounce back though. Unlike say Subban, Markov's game has zero little to do with speed. He passes the puck out, so his speed or whatever isn't really a huge deal as he rarely to never rushes it. He's a positional d-man.
Ignoring Frozen Ice I personally think he has decent value. I offered two top prospects (but not the Top Prospect). Something around the two 2nd round pick territory for him. I think that factors in injury risk and upside.

Kindl-Tartar- 3rd was my last.

I eluded to:
Two top prospects + decent young roster player (Miller/Eaves/Abdlekader) Value is definitively there.


I would prefer:
Pulk + Abdelkader+3rd (value is probably there)

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07-05-2012, 06:44 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Every team was on the list... For example Mtl was 21st.

HFboards updated their organizational rankings in the spring. Why are you a member/poster here if you do not read the articles or know anything about how they work?
Detroit keeps its players as prospects out of the NHL until they are 24 or 25. In Montreal and pretty much everywere else its around 20, 21 or, at most, 22. Of course Detroit is going to have a good prospect pool!

If you consider Brendon Smith an amazing prospect then why not Subban who is actually a few months younger (but much more proven. same draft year. same as Pacioretty as well). Price is younger than Kindl as well (same draft year, a million times more proven).

Detroit devellops their prospects very well, theres no denying that, but their tendency to keep players in the minors for a while is certainly going to skew this.

Besides these lists only mean so much, I fondly remember the Habs being ranked first once with the likes of Chris Higgins, Mike Komisarek and Andrei Kostitsyn. Plekanec was like the 8th ranked prospects behind scrubs like Cory Urquhart and yet has become by far the best player of the lot.

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07-05-2012, 07:18 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Detroit keeps its players as prospects out of the NHL until they are 24 or 25. In Montreal and pretty much everywere else its around 20, 21 or, at most, 22. Of course Detroit is going to have a good prospect pool!

If you consider Brendon Smith an amazing prospect then why not Subban who is actually a few months younger (but much more proven. same draft year. same as Pacioretty as well). Price is younger than Kindl as well (same draft year, a million times more proven).

Detroit devellops their prospects very well, theres no denying that, but their tendency to keep players in the minors for a while is certainly going to skew this.

Besides these lists only mean so much, I fondly remember the Habs being ranked first once with the likes of Chris Higgins, Mike Komisarek and Andrei Kostitsyn. Plekanec was like the 8th ranked prospects behind scrubs like Cory Urquhart and yet has become by far the best player of the lot.
I agree completely. But most of the players we are mentioning are 21, 22, 23. We generally do not talk about our 18/19/20 year old prospects. We have some good ones but its just so speculative. The 21/22/23 year olds give you a bit better of an idea if they will pan out or not.

The only young guys being talked about are Sproul, Jurco, and Oullette who are really exciting prospects in a traditional sense. Tartar, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Pulki, Smith all have a body of work in international competitions and against men at this point to begin to accurately gauge their value and NHL contributions. The only one that could not play in the NHL today is Pulki (he is a question mark but has the highest offensive upside other than Nyquist).

How far behind Subban is Smith? Those older players imo have more trade value (rather than less).

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07-05-2012, 07:41 PM
  #168
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This^^^^ The Habs shouldn't move Markov now at all. Hope he stays unbroken and move him at the deadline before he breaks.



WOW how can you honestly believe that?? Its pretty simple Markov plays-gets hurt-gets better-plays again-gets hurt and so on=injury prone. Only a Habs fan How is it that Leafs fans have this bad rap??



Super HOMER^^^^ Again astounded that Leaf fans are considered the worst




This is the post I'm going to use when some one tries to say Leaf fans are the worst, sorry but the worst HOMERS I have seen are Hab and EDM fans. Sorry but Thats my opinion .

In closing Markov's value is almost a negative right now due to the $$ and his fragile nature but if he shows his injuries are behind him and he has a few yrs left then his value shoots up to top 10-15 D in the NHL
Worst homers? This comming for someone who claims Grabs is better than Pleks.Now you can save this one too.It shows at least one big Leaf homer.

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07-05-2012, 08:16 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Ignoring Frozen Ice I personally think he has decent value. I offered two top prospects (but not the Top Prospect). Something around the two 2nd round pick territory for him. I think that factors in injury risk and upside.

Kindl-Tartar- 3rd was my last.

I eluded to:
Two top prospects + decent young roster player (Miller/Eaves/Abdlekader) Value is definitively there.


I would prefer:
Pulk + Abdelkader+3rd (value is probably there)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
They have enough assets to get Markov.

Ouellet and a forward prospect (Detroit gets to protect 4) would be a deal I'd consider.
More lol's for you.



This isn't counting the last couple of years when he was out most of the time. Who would need Markov.

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07-05-2012, 09:16 PM
  #170
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More lol's for you.



This isn't counting the last couple of years when he was out most of the time. Who would need Markov.
I think hes a very good player and quite valuable. More valuable than even my offer if healthy.

But I did not offer **** the whole lets offer a 7th is laughable. Closest thing to junk I offered was Miller/Eaves/Abdlekader as a throw in. Everything else was quality assets that the wings want to keep.

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07-05-2012, 09:27 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I think hes a very good player and quite valuable. More valuable than even my offer if healthy.

But I did not offer **** the whole lets offer a 7th is laughable. Closest thing to junk I offered was Miller/Eaves/Abdlekader as a throw in. Everything else was quality assets that the wings want to keep.
Ya the guy offering the 7th was just trolling.

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07-05-2012, 09:41 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Detroit keeps its players as prospects out of the NHL until they are 24 or 25. In Montreal and pretty much everywere else its around 20, 21 or, at most, 22. Of course Detroit is going to have a good prospect pool!

If you consider Brendon Smith an amazing prospect then why not Subban who is actually a few months younger (but much more proven. same draft year. same as Pacioretty as well). Price is younger than Kindl as well (same draft year, a million times more proven).

Detroit devellops their prospects very well, theres no denying that, but their tendency to keep players in the minors for a while is certainly going to skew this.

Besides these lists only mean so much, I fondly remember the Habs being ranked first once with the likes of Chris Higgins, Mike Komisarek and Andrei Kostitsyn. Plekanec was like the 8th ranked prospects behind scrubs like Cory Urquhart and yet has become by far the best player of the lot.
Detroit marinates their draft picks for two main reasons:

1) Team has been in a "win now" mode for 15+ years and values veterans more than giving time to unproven rookies (prospects usually are expected to play big minutes in a pro league (AHL/KHL/SEL/etc.) before ever being considered a regular spot).

2) They have to. Detroit has drafted so late in the draft that NHL-ready or even near-ready prospects are not available. So unless they only focus on grinders and role-players they have to take gambles on 'projects' with various flaws to have a chance at any impact players.

Makes their prospect pool look deeper but also makes their drafting history from the past 5 years look awfully lacking.

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07-05-2012, 09:43 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Detroit keeps its players as prospects out of the NHL until they are 24 or 25. In Montreal and pretty much everywere else its around 20, 21 or, at most, 22. Of course Detroit is going to have a good prospect pool!

If you consider Brendon Smith an amazing prospect then why not Subban who is actually a few months younger (but much more proven. same draft year. same as Pacioretty as well). Price is younger than Kindl as well (same draft year, a million times more proven).

Detroit devellops their prospects very well, theres no denying that, but their tendency to keep players in the minors for a while is certainly going to skew this.

Besides these lists only mean so much, I fondly remember the Habs being ranked first once with the likes of Chris Higgins, Mike Komisarek and Andrei Kostitsyn. Plekanec was like the 8th ranked prospects behind scrubs like Cory Urquhart and yet has become by far the best player of the lot.
Detroit doesn't get the luxury to draft top 5 players that are NHL ready. So of course they will need more time to develop.

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07-05-2012, 09:47 PM
  #174
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Franzen + Quincey + 4th 2013 for Markov + Eller + 3rd 2013 ??

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07-05-2012, 09:58 PM
  #175
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I wouldn't move Markov for Detroit's 1st. You'll see...

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