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Old
07-05-2012, 10:14 PM
  #101
Damaged Goods
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
all true. I still don't know if they have the finances for 30m out in one calendar year, in addition to their other obligations.

Huge risk though if we got him for 4 firsts and he walks from us next year. And we couldn't trade him or sign him to an extension during the year, correct?

Too much risk with the 1 yr option IMO.
Big risk, big reward.

On the one hand, it's hard to see Weber voluntarily coming to the Flyers on a one year qualifying offer that costs 4 1st round picks, taking $10 M+ from the organization and then refusing a $100 M+ contract to skip town at the end of the season. That would be diabolical.

But you never know.

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07-05-2012, 10:40 PM
  #102
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How true is this:

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/201...nsation-limits

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you could not give Shea Weber an offer sheet of 10 years, $84M to escape the Four 1st round picks tier, since the compensation rule states that the entire compensation amount cannot be divided by more than 5 when considering which tier in which an offer sheet lies.
Regardless, I would much rather trade picks than OS them unless we can move a tier down as long as he signs an extension at the time of trade. If he even hits the RFA market, there is nothing to say he'll sign with us and this would be one of the few times I could see overpaying a bit to get him here and locked up.

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07-05-2012, 10:53 PM
  #103
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Regardless, I would much rather trade picks than OS them unless we can move a tier down as long as he signs an extension at the time of trade. If he even hits the RFA market, there is nothing to say he'll sign with us and this would be one of the few times I could see overpaying a bit to get him here and locked up.
Anyone would. And that's the problem. You get into a bidding war with all the other teams that want Weber and Poile gets to call the shots instead of Weber. OS removes the bidding war and lets Weber call the shots.

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07-06-2012, 03:30 AM
  #104
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Anyone would. And that's the problem. You get into a bidding war with all the other teams that want Weber and Poile gets to call the shots instead of Weber. OS removes the bidding war and lets Weber call the shots.
Weber has more of a say though because any team that trades will know in advance if Weber will actually sign there long term so if Weber isn't keen on it the team would just pull out.

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07-06-2012, 04:03 AM
  #105
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Trading for Weber brings us no closer to the cup. The assets we will have to give up will set us back. We should just try to aquire weber as a FA and not give up a ransom for him in a trade.

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07-06-2012, 06:24 AM
  #106
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I like the idea of front loading a huge deal for weber, like a 12 yr 120 mil deal with 30+ mil in the 1st calendar year. That way one of two things happen...

1) the preds can't afford to match and the flyers get weber only giving up draft picks. Which should be low 1st round picks and not a drastic loss for flyers since they already have a young core of players. Weber only being 27 yrs old just adds to the young core. He just entering his prime and IMO is absolutely worth the draft picks the flyers would give up.

2) the preds somehow match. Obviously the flyers don't get weber which sucks but at least this guarantees that weber stays in the western conference and away from an eastern conference rival like Pitt or NYR. The next best thing to the flyers getting weber is him staying far away from the eastern conference...

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07-06-2012, 06:46 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Reaper1097 View Post
I like the idea of front loading a huge deal for weber, like a 12 yr 120 mil deal with 30+ mil in the 1st calendar year. That way one of two things happen...

1) the preds can't afford to match and the flyers get weber only giving up draft picks. Which should be low 1st round picks and not a drastic loss for flyers since they already have a young core of players. Weber only being 27 yrs old just adds to the young core. He just entering his prime and IMO is absolutely worth the draft picks the flyers would give up.

2) the preds somehow match. Obviously the flyers don't get weber which sucks but at least this guarantees that weber stays in the western conference and away from an eastern conference rival like Pitt or NYR. The next best thing to the flyers getting weber is him staying far away from the eastern conference...
Regardlesss of any offer sheet they will match. Worst case scenerio, they turn match and trade him if they can't afford him. Either way, an OS will not work.

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07-06-2012, 06:58 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Regardlesss of any offer sheet they will match. Worst case scenerio, they turn match and trade him if they can't afford him. Either way, an OS will not work.

They can't trade him for a year if they match. So if he signs a one year offer sheet, unrestricted free agency is guaranteed on July 1, 2013 no matter what.

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07-06-2012, 07:02 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Regardlesss of any offer sheet they will match. Worst case scenerio, they turn match and trade him if they can't afford him. Either way, an OS will not work.
And since they can't trade him for a year can Nashville afford 30+ million in that year?

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07-06-2012, 08:05 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Reaper1097 View Post
And since they can't trade him for a year can Nashville afford 30+ million in that year?
You can't pay him $30 million on a one-year offer sheet.

But we're going around in circles here.

To summarize:

1) As far as anyone can tell, there is literally no long-term offer sheet that Nashville won't match--regardless of money or term. THey offered Suter $90 over 13 years, and Poile gave every indication that they would have matched Minnesota's $98 over 13 if given the opportunity. I don't see why they would blink at most of the packages suggested here--to get to a package they wouldn't match, you'd have to give Weber such an insane contract that it would kill your own cap situation.

2) Nashville almost certainly would not match a signed 1-year offer sheet--because it would guarantee that Weber hits UFA without them being able to trade him or his rights next year. They would be forced to either play him for the year and let him walk, or take whatever compensation they get from the OS.

3) Weber's qualifying offer is 7.5 million, so obviously any OS needs to be significantly above that to garner his interest. Anything about 8.42 requires 4 first round picks. A 1-year OS of 8.4 million is 2 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd. If Nashville matches that, they (almost certainly) lose Weber for nothing in July 2013.

So, basically, any team with an interest in Weber and salary cap space could / should offer a similar 1-year OS of 8.4 million.

As others have said, doing this would probably kill any team's long-term relationship with Nashville, so I don't see a problem with trying to work out a reasonable trade.

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07-06-2012, 08:08 AM
  #111
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I like the idea of offering him the 1 year deal up in the range of 15 million or whatever the Flyers can afford. That would be if he would agree to sign an extension after that. If Nashville would match it that would be only for 1 year and then he would be a free agent anyway.

Sign him to a huge 1 year deal and then to an extension to keep him here.

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07-06-2012, 08:14 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
You can't pay him $30 million on a one-year offer sheet.

But we're going around in circles here.

To summarize:

1) As far as anyone can tell, there is literally no long-term offer sheet that Nashville won't match--regardless of money or term. THey offered Suter $90 over 13 years, and Poile gave every indication that they would have matched Minnesota's $98 over 13 if given the opportunity. I don't see why they would blink at most of the packages suggested here--to get to a package they wouldn't match, you'd have to give Weber such an insane contract that it would kill your own cap situation.

2) Nashville almost certainly would not match a signed 1-year offer sheet--because it would guarantee that Weber hits UFA without them being able to trade him or his rights next year. They would be forced to either play him for the year and let him walk, or take whatever compensation they get from the OS.

3) Weber's qualifying offer is 7.5 million, so obviously any OS needs to be significantly above that to garner his interest. Anything about 8.42 requires 4 first round picks. A 1-year OS of 8.4 million is 2 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd. If Nashville matches that, they (almost certainly) lose Weber for nothing in July 2013.

So, basically, any team with an interest in Weber and salary cap space could / should offer a similar 1-year OS of 8.4 million.

As others have said, doing this would probably kill any team's long-term relationship with Nashville, so I don't see a problem with trying to work out a reasonable trade.
When negotiating with Weber regarding the one-year offer sheet, the Flyers could potentially discuss the framework of a longterm deal. If Weber was on board, you could offer him the 12 million dollar one year deal knowing that if he made it through, he would sign the extension. League probably would reject that strategy, but I don't know the rules around any OS and whether you can negotiate with the player or not.

I have 0 qualms about paying 4 first rounders for Weber if it keeps our core intact and we know he'll sign longterm before the new CBA takes effect.

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Old
07-06-2012, 08:28 AM
  #113
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random fact, Glen Wesley was once traded for 4 first round picks.

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07-06-2012, 08:40 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
You can't pay him $30 million on a one-year offer sheet.

But we're going around in circles here.

To summarize:

1) As far as anyone can tell, there is literally no long-term offer sheet that Nashville won't match--regardless of money or term. THey offered Suter $90 over 13 years, and Poile gave every indication that they would have matched Minnesota's $98 over 13 if given the opportunity. I don't see why they would blink at most of the packages suggested here--to get to a package they wouldn't match, you'd have to give Weber such an insane contract that it would kill your own cap situation.
Yes, you can pay him 30 mil (maybe a little more maybe less) in one calendar year on the offersheet. It can't be his cap hit, but that can be the salary. We were supposedly offering 14 mil for the first two years on our 9m a year cap hit deals to Suter and Parise. There is a BIG difference financially in a straight up 98/13 year deal paid at 7.5 mil a year and one where he gets 14 mil this and next years and then like 3 mil in the end.

I don't know the terms of the Minn contracts or the Nsh offer.

That said, the offersheet is a bad idea all the way around IMO.

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07-06-2012, 09:12 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Yes, you can pay him 30 mil (maybe a little more maybe less) in one calendar year on the offersheet. It can't be his cap hit, but that can be the salary. We were supposedly offering 14 mil for the first two years on our 9m a year cap hit deals to Suter and Parise. There is a BIG difference financially in a straight up 98/13 year deal paid at 7.5 mil a year and one where he gets 14 mil this and next years and then like 3 mil in the end.

I don't know the terms of the Minn contracts or the Nsh offer.

That said, the offersheet is a bad idea all the way around IMO.
The max you can offer a player with this CBA is 14 million for this year. If he were to sign our offer sheet right now it would probably have a 12 million signing bonus on this day and the same day next year. He would get a 12 million signing bonus and 2 million salary, then next year get the same signing bonus. So he would make around 26 million in one calender year, 30 million is out of the question. It would be against the CBA rules they have in place. Remember he needs to have a base salary for the year, his salary just can't all be the signing bonus.

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07-06-2012, 10:06 AM
  #116
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Brayden Schenn + Andrej Meszaros + 1st for Shea Weber

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07-06-2012, 10:37 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
The max you can offer a player with this CBA is 14 million for this year. If he were to sign our offer sheet right now it would probably have a 12 million signing bonus on this day and the same day next year. He would get a 12 million signing bonus and 2 million salary, then next year get the same signing bonus. So he would make around 26 million in one calender year, 30 million is out of the question. It would be against the CBA rules they have in place. Remember he needs to have a base salary for the year, his salary just can't all be the signing bonus.
Right, but for a one-year offer sheet, you couldn't include the second bonus. Right? He'd get $12 + $2 million, and then become UFA on July 1--unless an extension was negotiated, in which case, he could then receive another bonus.

To get the $26 million over 366 days, it needs to be at least a 2-year contract.

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07-06-2012, 10:54 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Right, but for a one-year offer sheet, you couldn't include the second bonus. Right? He'd get $12 + $2 million, and then become UFA on July 1--unless an extension was negotiated, in which case, he could then receive another bonus.

To get the $26 million over 366 days, it needs to be at least a 2-year contract.
That is correct I believe. I think I actually meant to put that in there somewhere

Also Chris Pronger at 27> Shea Weber correct? People are making me seem like I am crazy for thinking that on the main board. Pronger is one of the better hard nosed mean SOB offensive powerhouse defenseman I have ever seen play the game. I would take him at 27 over Weber at 27

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07-06-2012, 10:57 AM
  #119
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30 Million Dollars is a lot of coin. Just saying "oh we can offer him $30M in a year so Nashville won't match" is a little farfetched.

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07-06-2012, 12:54 PM
  #120
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Brayden Schenn + Andrej Meszaros + 1st for Shea Weber
And then he turns into a one year rental and we are screwed...

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07-06-2012, 01:14 PM
  #121
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Trading for Weber brings us no closer to the cup. The assets we will have to give up will set us back. We should just try to aquire weber as a FA and not give up a ransom for him in a trade.
Pittsburgh, the Rangers and Boston are lining themselves yup with more cap space then we currently have. More then 1 team will be able to offer the max contract Weber will command next offseason provided he is a UFA.
Do you put all your eggs in one basket for next offseason hoping Weber signs here?

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07-06-2012, 01:18 PM
  #122
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Planning to acquire Weber as a UFA is planning to fail.

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07-06-2012, 01:38 PM
  #123
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That is correct I believe. I think I actually meant to put that in there somewhere

Also Chris Pronger at 27> Shea Weber correct? People are making me seem like I am crazy for thinking that on the main board. Pronger is one of the better hard nosed mean SOB offensive powerhouse defenseman I have ever seen play the game. I would take him at 27 over Weber at 27
Pronger was better AINEC.

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07-06-2012, 04:18 PM
  #124
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Planning to acquire Weber as a UFA is planning to fail.
People should view Weber as a long shot/pipe dream next offseason. Maybe Nashville does decide to trade him. Right now I dont know if we have the prospect assets to get him as some other teams do.

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07-06-2012, 04:23 PM
  #125
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The whole point is he won't be available after the Suter situation..

With the Flyers track record of developing/acquiring young forward talent, I'd be willing to trade depth for a stud like Weber and then regrow the lost talent up front over his tenure. Scorers are also easier to acquire through free agency than #1 defensemen.

Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn or Sean Couturier + 2013 1st

for starters
Rather give up the offense Jake and Mez bring to the table. If Weber comes signed and smiling the praises of Philadelphia, Jake, Mez, and a first.

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