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Quincey Files for Arbitration

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Old
07-06-2012, 08:31 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
God help us all. You're afraid to line up Q with White? Wasn't E with anyone other than Lids (and maybe Q) rather disastrous?

I'm going to have nightmares if Ericsson is our #2.
Well what are you looking for from a number 2? 22-24 Minutes a night being stay at home for Kronwall. Ericsson is probably the best person for the job sadly. You could stick Smith on Kronwall's line and hope for a stud line and give them 25 minutes. I imagine that would be a bit too run and gun for our liking.

Quincey-Kronwall would be interesting if they get Chemistry. Both strong, can hit, and mobile.

I feel like Ericsson has to play with Kronwall or White. Quincey/Smith/Kindl just do not have the poise necessary to settle E down.

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07-06-2012, 08:31 AM
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Why did the arbitrator who handled Weber's case cite Keith?

Maybe you should read his "post".
Keith wasn't a UFA when he signed his contract.

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07-06-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why did the arbitrator who handled Weber's case cite Keith?

Maybe you should read his "post".
Because Keith was a RFA when he signed his new contract.... Keith was/is paid $8M his first three seasons of his new deal. Weber got $7.5M.

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07-06-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Because Keith was a RFA when he signed his new contract.... Keith was/is paid $8M his first three seasons of his new deal. Weber got $7.5M.

What exactly is your point? Quincey's value isn't going to be determined solely by Wings' contracts. I'm sure his agent will have a good list of all RFA D signed recently. What works in Q's favor is overall length of service. He's not going to get paid based on 2 months with the Wings due to a trade.


Edit: And yes, I KNOW about the UFA vs RFA comparables, sloppy on my part, but you guys seem to be saying that his universe for comparables is limited to Wings signings.

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07-06-2012, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What exactly is your point? Quincey's value isn't going to be determined solely by Wings' contracts. I'm sure his agent will have a good list of all RFA D signed recently. What works in Q's favor is overall length of service. He's not going to get paid based on 2 months with the Wings due to a trade.
So what's your point then? We're all saying the same thing. Unless you're claiming his agent is going to make a case that he's worth 4.5m-5.5m I think it's splitting hairs. Many people around here hate Quincey, so any contract is going to piss people off.

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07-06-2012, 08:39 AM
  #81
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Like it or not we are going to have Defense buy committee.

Kronwall: 24 Minutes
Ericsson: 19 Minutes
White: 20 Minutes
Quincey: 23 Minutes
Smith: 19 Minutes
Kindl: 16 Minutes.

PK Order:
Ericsson
Kronwall
Quincey
White
Smith/Kindl

PP Order:
Kronwall
Smith/White
Quincey
Ericsson/Kindl

Is my guess on minutes.

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07-06-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What exactly is your point? Quincey's value isn't going to be determined solely by Wings' contracts. I'm sure his agent will have a good list of all RFA D signed recently. What works in Q's favor is overall length of service. He's not going to get paid based on 2 months with the Wings due to a trade.
Just wanted to point out that he can't be compared with UFA's and you thought Weber being compared to Keith was a UFA comparison. Well, that's what I thought I read anyway.

I do think he's going to get paid a lot less based on his last two seasons, not because of what he's done or hasn't done with the Wings. Thruthfully I don't think there are many comparisons out there, but maybe someone can shed some light.

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07-06-2012, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
So what's your point then? We're all saying the same thing. Unless you're claiming his agent is going to make a case that he's worth 4.5m-5.5m I think it's splitting hairs. Many people around here hate Quincey, so any contract is going to piss people off.

I added an edit to make my point clearer.

I don't know what his agent will claim, but if I had to guess because they did file for arb and the Wings were trying to keep him under $4 MM, that the agent will want something north of $4MM. What exactly, I'm not sure but he's capable of top four play on at least half of all NHL teams. That our fans don't like him is beside the point. They're welcome to find a list of top four defensemen who will sign here for less than that.

Oh wait. Holland can't seem to find anyone in that scrap heap, can he?

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07-06-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I added an edit to make my point clearer.

I don't know what his agent will claim, but if I had to guess because they did file for arb and the Wings were trying to keep him under $4 MM, that the agent will want something north of $4MM. What exactly, I'm not sure but he's capable of top four play on at least half of all NHL teams. That our fans don't like him is beside the point. They're welcome to find a list of top four defensemen who will sign here for less than that.

Oh wait. Holland can't seem to find anyone in that scrap heap, can he?
I bagged on Quincey for years and I still believe in what I said, but he's still 26 years old and can help this team (hopefully in a lesser role when players like Smith develop and we get a real #1/#2 defensemen). But if Q's demands are too high it won't be hard to replace him on a 1 year basis. But Holland will sign him for whatever the decision is, he has 17m in cap space.

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07-06-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I added an edit to make my point clearer.

I don't know what his agent will claim, but if I had to guess because they did file for arb and the Wings were trying to keep him under $4 MM, that the agent will want something north of $4MM. What exactly, I'm not sure but he's capable of top four play on at least half of all NHL teams. That our fans don't like him is beside the point. They're welcome to find a list of top four defensemen who will sign here for less than that.

Oh wait. Holland can't seem to find anyone in that scrap heap, can he?
For the record I do want us to keep Quincey for a season even if the contract is $4M. It doesn't look like we'll be close to the cap, so you suck it up and at least improve your team a little bit. But I don't think he's worth it. However Quincey can't use that leverage of cap space and team need etc. in arbitration so I'm still hoping his award will be closer to $3M.

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07-06-2012, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I bagged on Quincey for years and I still believe in what I said, but he's still 26 years old and can help this team (hopefully in a lesser role when players like Smith develop and we get a real #1/#2 defensemen). But if Q's demands are too high it won't be hard to replace him on a 1 year basis. But Holland will sign him for whatever the decision is, he has 17m in cap space.
I'm saying that it will be hard to replace AND get better for less money.

How is Holland going to do that? He either has to make one more trade or he has to go the UFA route. Neither option is cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
For the record I do want us to keep Quincey for a season even if the contract is $4M. It doesn't look like we'll be close to the cap, so you suck it up and at least improve your team a little bit. But I don't think he's worth it. However Quincey can't use that leverage of cap space and team need etc. in arbitration so I'm still hoping his award will be closer to $3M.
I think we're saying the same thing, Joe. I just got the impression initially that you guys were saying his only comparables would be Wings contracts.

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07-06-2012, 08:56 AM
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I


I think we're saying the same thing, Joe. I just got the impression initially that you guys were saying his only comparables would be Wings contracts.
I guess we're just all a bit riled up over the overall situation.. I'm gonna go try find some comparables.

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07-06-2012, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
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I'm saying that it will be hard to replace AND get better for less money.

How is Holland going to do that? He either has to make one more trade or he has to go the UFA route. Neither option is cheaper.
1 year deals don't matter though. If Holland has to let Quincey walk and sign Pavel Kubina for 1 year at 3-4-5m a year, it doesn't matter. We'd be in the exact same spot.

I never said it would get us better, I just said on a 1 year basis it's easy to fix.

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07-06-2012, 09:02 AM
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If Quincey is on your top pairing you aren't a playoff team.

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07-06-2012, 09:05 AM
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If Quincey is on your top pairing you aren't a playoff team.

If he were a top pairing defenseman, your comparables start looking quite different.

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07-06-2012, 09:17 AM
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Well the problem is that he's not far from it, is he, as our D stands. Kronwall is obviosly the #1 but there really isn't much between Quincey and White and then you get down to Ericsson and Smith and Kindl.

Let's be real here, neither Quincey nor White nor Ericsson should be top pairing but one of them will be if we don't pull something out of a hat.

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07-06-2012, 09:23 AM
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Well the problem is that he's not far from it, is he, as our D stands. Kronwall is obviosly the #1 but there really isn't much between Quincey and White and then you get down to Ericsson and Smith and Kindl.

Let's be real here, neither Quincey nor White nor Ericsson should be top pairing but one of them will be if we don't pull something out of a hat.
I do not think we will have a top pair. I think Kronwall will get the most ice time playing ES/PK/PP. But at even strength they are going to roll the lines (certainly the top 4).

So naming a number two is really not that important. We either roll all three pairs equally or we hide Smith/Kindl on the bottom line and give:
Kronwall-Ericsson
Qunicey-White
Each 25 minutes a game.
Personally I think we are better off using Smith heavily and rolling all three. Sheltering Kindl just a bit.

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07-06-2012, 09:43 AM
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Latest arbitration award to a mid d-man was Campoli last year, he was awarded $2.5M(CHI walked away, he then signed for $1.75M with MTL).. He had also played for three teams in total, and was acquired by his new team at the deadline. Also injury struggles in the last few years heading into arbitration.

Campoli career stats before arbitration: 397 games, 33 goals, 102 assists, 0,35 ppg, -39. Playoffs 18 games, 1 goal, 4 assists, +3.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 144 games, 8 goals, 31 assists, 0,27 ppg, -3.

Quincey career stats: 257 games, 18 goals, 77 assists, 0,37 ppg, -5. Playoffs 24 games, 0 goals, 2 assists, +/- 0.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 93 games, 7 goals, 20 assists, 0.29 ppg, -6.

There's some raw stats, read what you want from it.

Some context:
Quincey has a history of playing more on special teams, especially penaltykilling, i.e. more ice time.
Quincey hits some more, blocked shots fairly equal.
Campoli takes fewer penalties.
Campoli has more experience.
$2,5M last year equals about $2,7M this year.

I do think Quincey is better and should get more than Campoli, but based on those hard facts I don't think he should get close to $4M.

I don't expect this to go to arbitration though.

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07-06-2012, 09:44 AM
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That only distributes the problem, it doesn't solve it. The reality remains that your 2nd best D-man is one of those three. It's kinda self-defeating in a way, you're gonna see more of White to see less of Quincey, more of Quincey to see less of Ericsson etc. etc.

What I'm saying is that we need another D-Man, a good one.

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07-06-2012, 09:47 AM
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I think Quincey is going to get 4-4.5M. (closer to 4.5). I dunno if hes worth that but that is what he is going to get imo.

The question is do you want him to sign for that much for 1 year or for 5 years. Pros and cons to both strategies.

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07-06-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Latest arbitration award to a mid d-man was Campoli last year, he was awarded $2.5M(CHI walked away, he then signed for $1.75M with MTL).. He had also played for three teams in total, and was acquired by his new team at the deadline. Also injury struggles in the last few years heading into arbitration.

Campoli career stats before arbitration: 397 games, 33 goals, 102 assists, 0,35 ppg, -39. Playoffs 18 games, 1 goal, 4 assists, +3.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 144 games, 8 goals, 31 assists, 0,27 ppg, -3.

Quincey career stats: 257 games, 18 goals, 77 assists, 0,37 ppg, -5. Playoffs 24 games, 0 goals, 2 assists, +/- 0.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 93 games, 7 goals, 20 assists, 0.29 ppg, -6.

There's some raw stats, read what you want from it.

Some context:
Quincey has a history of playing more on special teams, especially penaltykilling, i.e. more ice time.
Quincey hits some more, blocked shots fairly equal.
Campoli takes fewer penalties.
Campoli has more experience.
$2,5M last year equals about $2,7M this year.

I do think Quincey is better and should get more than Campoli, but based on those hard facts I don't think he should get close to $4M.

I don't expect this to go to arbitration though.
The comparables to use aren't other arb awards, but actual contracts signed by comparable defensemen. The arbitrator does not have to use the comparables presented by the player nor the team. Unlike baseball, he doesn't have to split the difference nor pick the team's or player's number.

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07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
Latest arbitration award to a mid d-man was Campoli last year, he was awarded $2.5M(CHI walked away, he then signed for $1.75M with MTL).. He had also played for three teams in total, and was acquired by his new team at the deadline. Also injury struggles in the last few years heading into arbitration.

Campoli career stats before arbitration: 397 games, 33 goals, 102 assists, 0,35 ppg, -39. Playoffs 18 games, 1 goal, 4 assists, +3.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 144 games, 8 goals, 31 assists, 0,27 ppg, -3.

Quincey career stats: 257 games, 18 goals, 77 assists, 0,37 ppg, -5. Playoffs 24 games, 0 goals, 2 assists, +/- 0.
Last two seasons heading into arbitration: 93 games, 7 goals, 20 assists, 0.29 ppg, -6.

There's some raw stats, read what you want from it.

Some context:
Quincey has a history of playing more on special teams, especially penaltykilling, i.e. more ice time.
Quincey hits some more, blocked shots fairly equal.
Campoli takes fewer penalties.
Campoli has more experience.
$2,5M last year equals about $2,7M this year.

I do think Quincey is better and should get more than Campoli, but based on those hard facts I don't think he should get close to $4M.

I don't expect this to go to arbitration though.
I think your comparisons are fair, but why do think this won't go to arbitration? What do you think he'll agree to? (Remember, he didn't even counter offer Holland's initial proposal.)

I am guessing, he wants a 4+ year deal at $4M+. I seriously doubt that the Wings will do that. So, in lieu of that, he'll take a one-year deal (from the arbitrator or Wings), then leave as a UFA next year. I think he'll go to arbitration out of frustration though, much like Hudler did. He'll see the Wings are sitting on a ton of money and won't understand why Holland is holding out.

Also, not sure why everyone is bickering about what he'll get paid. We have almost $17M in cap space. This seems like Ericsson's contract all over again, where people quibbled over ~500k when the Wings sat on almost $5M in cap space all season.

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07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
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I don't understand why exactly everyone is freaking out over what Q could potentially be awarded. We are currently sitting on 18 MM of cap space. We literally cannot spend the cap space that we have. That good looking class of 2013 free agents will largely get signed between now and next July. Furthermore, everyone knows that Kenny doesn't have the stones to make a trade for a meaningful blueliner.

I simply don't see the logic in cutting bait with him. The right move is to get him signed for a couple of years if possible. That way we will have an asset to show for the pick we gave up. We can always later move that asset for another, better player if need be.

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07-06-2012, 10:12 AM
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The comparables to use aren't other arb awards, but actual contracts signed by comparable defensemen. The arbitrator does not have to use the comparables presented by the player nor the team. Unlike baseball, he doesn't have to split the difference nor pick the team's or player's number.
I know, but it gives a view into how these decision go. Campoli along with Weber and Jurcina(in 2009) are the last three defensemen to go as far as arbitration. I thought this one looked kinda fair as far as the process goes, and it gives something to relate to.

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07-06-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
That only distributes the problem, it doesn't solve it. The reality remains that your 2nd best D-man is one of those three. It's kinda self-defeating in a way, you're gonna see more of White to see less of Quincey, more of Quincey to see less of Ericsson etc. etc.

What I'm saying is that we need another D-Man, a good one.
Bingo, just not sure where he comes from. Also not sure why Holland's offer to Suter was only for $6.9M/year. Sure, maybe Suter had his heart set on playing with Parise or closer to home, but why not be more aggressive (i.e. over $7.5M) to press the issue? He had a huge need and a lot of money to spend. That offer, to me, shows where Holland's mind is at--and it points to us not getting another elite D-man unless Kronwall or Smith somehow emerge as one.

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