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Free Agent Frenzy Part VII: It's Still Only July Edition

View Poll Results: What should the Rangers do with their two 2013 3rd round picks?
Trade both picks 15 36.59%
Trade one pick, but keep the other 10 24.39%
Hang on to both picks 16 39.02%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-06-2012, 11:28 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I don't get that impression with him, but who am I. If he's walking away from Nashville, let's just grab him next season for free.

It's still the same dreamworld scenarios though. -Only if he re-signs with us. -for Staal + which I'm sure no one expects to include anything decent. -Staal will leave in 4 years. -he doesn't want to play in Nashville, but he wants to play here. -we'll get to negotiate before the trade.

All of this for something we don't "need". If we didn't have other holes and we want to go over the top, yeah maybe this is an avenue. Our money and assets are spent better on other concerns. Seriously, this is like trying to land Luongo to upgrade Lundqvist.
Thats NEVER going to happen, Polie is not going to allow a repeat of Suter. He is going to trade Weber before he can get to free agency. The team that is going to acquire him, is going to sign him to an extension(they are going to give up quite a bit to get him).

Two scenarios:
1)Polie gets Weber resigned.

2)Weber refuses to sign with Nashville, Polie trades him. Weber signs an extension with the team that traded for him.

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07-06-2012, 11:28 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixon's Lunchbox View Post
13-15 goals while being the top defensive defenseman in the NHL isn't enough? That's what Chara and Lidstrom average. McDonagh literally had 0 PP time and had 30+ points. I think he can hit 50-55 in a year more than once. It definitely isn't something out of the realm of possibility.
When you have Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, etc matching, if not bettering, that with goals in the 18-20 range. It is a huge difference.

I just don't see it personally. I would love to be proven wrong though.

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07-06-2012, 11:30 AM
  #128
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Weber isn't going to make the forwards better. He has the shot from the point, no doubt. Our problem is that somewhat, but it's more linked to the slow hands and minds of our pp forwards. No one time passes, not enough skating, no cross ice passes. Philly owns the slot and middle, we skirt the puck around the boards. Philly knows what they are doing with the puck before it's on their stick.

I'm not denying that Weber can and will help. I'd rather spend on forwards that can think fast and use some skill.
Weber would be a huge addition to the powerplay. He'd take pressure off forwards such as Richards and Gaborik. The reason our PP is awful too is everyone knows its going to either one of them. Having Richards on the point with Weber gives two shooting and passing threats and Gaborik on the halfwall. Weber would be the best PP player on the Rangers since Jagr.

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07-06-2012, 11:30 AM
  #129
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Besides McDonagh, none of our defenseman are going to command an AAV of $5M+. They are a group that excels as a unit without an individual star (and McDonagh is cost controlled for several years).

Youll have to explain to me how trading one or more of those very valuable assets for a guy that is going to command an $8M+ cap hit for the next decade+ constitutes a good move. Just because its speculation doesnt means its not silly.
You don't think Staal and Girardi will ask for 5m? Ok...

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07-06-2012, 11:31 AM
  #130
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I agree that's why I feel like he can top out at around 13-15 goals.

Karlsson is terrible defensively but the Norris seems to now be given to the gear offensive defensemen and with Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo in the league for the next decade plus McDonagh won't be in that conversation.
Girardi did finish 4th in Norris voting this year. Can't ignore that Green was a perennial favorite for a defensive trophy, but it is encouraging when someone like Girardi gets consideration.

I think the reluctance to trade McD for Weber is justified when salaries are taken into account. I wouldn't put too much stock in Norris trophy potential, but contracts aren't a bad factor.

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07-06-2012, 11:32 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixon's Lunchbox View Post
13-15 goals while being the top defensive defenseman in the NHL isn't enough? That's what Chara and Lidstrom average. McDonagh literally had 0 PP time and had 30+ points. I think he can hit 50-55 in a year more than once. It definitely isn't something out of the realm of possibility.
I'm gonna go with RKY on this one. I think Lidstrom and Chara are both a lot more flashy than McD and, for better or worse, you have to factor some degree of politics into the voting.

I think we also have to be careful that we just keep upping people's offensive ceilings with the assumption that they add more offense as they get older. It's not terribly uncommon, especially for defenseman, to find their zone in terms of offensive numbers and more or less plateau there while other areas of their game develop or get refined.

I don't know if I can quite see McD in the 15 goal, 50 point range. IMO, he reminds me of Ryan Suter with a few more goals. I can see 10 goals, 30-40 points being his range.

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07-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
When you have Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo, etc matching, if not bettering, that with goals in the 18-20 range. It is a huge difference.

I just don't see it personally. I would love to be proven wrong though.
I'm not saying he will win or he won't. He is getting off playing his FIRST full season in the NHL. Shea Weber is averaging around 50 points a year and everyone believes he was robbed the Norris this year. Why is it hard to believe McDonagh can hit 50 points in a season? 30+ points with no PP time, and he definitely has offensive skill, as he he can skate, dangle, and has a sneaky wrist shot.

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07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #133
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The Staal situation is exactly like the Weber situation. You say the Rangers wont trade for Weber since he could potentially be had for free next Summer. Then why exactly is that not true for Carolina? Carolina KNEW that Jordon just turned down a 60million contract so he could sign with them next year, and still traded for him. The Rangers pretty much knew Richards was going to sign with them, so they didn't trade for him. If this discussion occurred before the draft, you probably would have said, "Carolina will never trade for Staal, they are going to get him for free next year." And you would have been wrong. People dealing is absolutes are often wrong.

Now why was Carolina willing to make this trade? Because they knew he would extend his contract. No one in their right mind would trade Staal straight up for a guy with one year on his contract. That is why when scenarios like this occur(If in fact Nashville was actively shopping Weber), that bidding teams would get to speak to him in the hopes of agreeing on a contract extension before making any trades. Nashville would allow this so get a better return than a "rental package".

I know you are against hypothetical situations and want to flip out and not let anyone talk about them. But the hypothetical situation is this...

1.) Nashville tries to extend Weber, and Weber claims he doesnt want to stay in Nashville.
2.) Nashville begins shopping Weber around. Weber claims he would be willing to sign an extension with a different team. One of those teams being the Rangers.
3.) If Weber agrees to the extension, and Nashville asks for Staal+ as the return, do you do it?

Not a single person here has claimed the Rangers are shopping Staal. Not a single person here claimed that Nashville has made Weber available. We are just talking about a hypothetical situation. I think most people realize the chances of this happening is less than 5%. Maybe less than 1%. No one really cares that you think its never going to happen. People want to discuss the possibility of the offer, not the possibility of it happening.
its NOTHING like the Jordan Staal situation. NOTHING.

Jordan wanted to play with one of his brothers.

does Weber have a brother somewhere on the NHL he's forcing his way to?

Rangers are not trading Staal.

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07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #134
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I'm gonna go with RKY on this one. I think Lidstrom and Chara are both a lot more flashy than McD and, for better or worse, you have to factor some degree of politics into the voting.

I think we also have to be careful that we just keep upping people's offensive ceilings with the assumption that they add more offense as they get older. It's not terribly uncommon, especially for defenseman, to find their zone in terms of offensive numbers and more or less plateau there while other areas of their game develop or get refined.

I don't know if I can quite see McD in the 15 goal, 50 point range. IMO, he reminds me of Ryan Suter with a few more goals. I can see 10 goals, 30-40 points being his range.
His first full season in the NHL he got 32 points and 0 PP time. Again I'm not saying he will win a Norris, I'm just saying shutting out possibilities of it is just as bad as saying he will for sure win one.

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07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Girardi did finish 4th in Norris voting this year. Can't ignore that Green was a perennial favorite for a defensive trophy, but it is encouraging when someone like Girardi gets consideration.

I think the reluctance to trade McD for Weber is justified when salaries are taken into account. I wouldn't put too much stock in Norris trophy potential, but contracts aren't a bad factor.
Oh but I agree with the masses here though. McDonagh is a non-starter for Weber. If you want to talk Staal or Girardi+ for a signed Weber the by all means u would absolutely do it. Not McDonagh though.

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07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
  #136
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I don't know if Sanguinetti and shredded belong in the same sentence.

He did a good job of putting up some points, not dominating, but good. Unfortunately, his defense is still lacking and his physical play isn't much better.

He'll get a look, but I doubt expectations are too high at this point.
Blah. You caught me. I meant to qualify that with "offensively" and left it out. Doh.

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07-06-2012, 11:36 AM
  #137
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The fact that people are seriously contemplating Staal ++ for Weber blows my mind. Marc Staal has been this teams #1 defenseman for 3 years. He missed most of last season with a serious concussion and came back and was shaky until the playoffs when he really started to assert himself again. Bad news.

This team needs a 3rd pairing d-man (prefer Douglas Murray!) and a top-6 winger.

You all realize the cost would be something like:

Staal + Kreider/Stepan + for Weber right?

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07-06-2012, 11:38 AM
  #138
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When the hell did I ignore or say that wouldn't be the case?!

Weber's contract will most likely be about the 7+million dollar range. Its not an issue with money with Nashville(they will give him whatever he wants money wise).

The issue is, does he want to stay in Nashville? When his defensive partner just bolted.
I think you are off by a million. If Suter got 7.5 Weber will get 8M+, no?

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07-06-2012, 11:39 AM
  #139
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Thats NEVER going to happen, Polie is not going to allow a repeat of Suter. He is going to trade Weber before he can get to free agency. The team that is going to acquire him, is going to sign him to an extension(they are going to give up quite a bit to get him).

Two scenarios:
1)Polie gets Weber resigned.

2)Weber refuses to sign with Nashville, Polie trades him. Weber signs an extension with the team that traded for him.
I'm sorry, those aren't the only two scenarios. This is why I think you guys are in a dream world... all these ideal factors and contingencies.

No one can force Weber to sign. He can tell Nashville he's testing UFA or not signing there. No one can force Weber to sign before a trade is finalized. He's in control. Hossa was traded to Pitt and walked UFA 4 months later. It's not unheard of.

What if Weber flat out refuses to sign any type of extension prior to next summer? That's covered in neither of your two scenarios. It's possible. The only thing forcing his hand is the new CBA: 1) the restrictive rules will hamper his earning ability and 2) they may raise the age of UFA. #2 is why I think Nashville will hold onto him this season, he may not be walking UFA next summer anyway.

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07-06-2012, 11:41 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixon's Lunchbox View Post
His first full season in the NHL he got 32 points and 0 PP time. Again I'm not saying he will win a Norris, I'm just saying shutting out possibilities of it is just as bad as saying he will for sure win one.
But you're also under the assumption that he will get more power play time and such.

You don't know what moves will be made. You also have to take into consideration on how he's viewed within the organization. Do they think he has that offensive potential, if so then he'll get more time. Maybe he only gets some second unit time.

The difference with him and Doughty, Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo is that they already get major power play time. We don't know if/when McDonagh will ever get a chance to run the first unit. Not as long as MDZ is here I'd assume. It's an unfair advantage to the Webers and Zkatlsson who get to basically play the full power play then compared to someone seeing minimal second unit time.

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07-06-2012, 11:41 AM
  #141
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I think you are off by a million. If Suter got 7.5 Weber will get 8M+, no?
Possibly, but not necessarily. Richards could have gotten 7+ last summer, but instead he took less. Some players money isn't completely the issue.

I don't with the Weber that is the problem, since Nashville will give him anything he wants.

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07-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #142
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Possibly, but not necessarily. Richards could have gotten 7+ last summer, but instead he took less. Some players money isn't completely the issue.

I don't with the Weber that is the problem, since Nashville will give him anything he wants.
I just don't see him taking less than Suter. Time will tell, but I would be shocked if he did. This is going to be a huge contract.

And let's not compare Richards and Weber. Richards was already over 30...Weber is just entering his prime at 26, and he's arguably the best in the game.


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07-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #143
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Again, you are all upgrading a spot that doesn't need an upgrade. Our top 4 are set.
It really isnt. Our top 4 is...
McDonagh/Girardi
Staal/Stralman

You cant really count Del Zotto because he currently plays the bottom pair. Say Staal+ is traded for Weber. Than you are looking at this...

McDonagh/Weber
DelZotto/Girardi

The top 4 is a significant improvement. I know we have quite a few people on these boards that refuse to make improvements to the team that doesn't address our biggest need(Offense). But GMs actually try to improve their teams in any way possible. And by improving your defense, doesn't mean you cant also work at improving the offense. This team still lacks a #2RD and a shot from the point for our power play.

Assuming Weber is available and willing to sign an extension...
1.) Weber is a better player than Staal
2.) Del Zotto can move from 3rd pair to 2nd Pair.
3.) 3rd pair now has room for Erixon
4.) Our power play is significantly better
5.) Staal might leave after 3 years to go to Carolina
6.) Rangers played well without Staal when he was injured.
7.) Trade would make sense to Nashville if they know they cant keep Weber, because the have a hole at 1LD with Suter leaving.

I for one am expecting Weber to want to leave. Granted Radulov wasn't there long, but he bolted. Suter just left. Weber refused to sign a long term contract last year, hinting that he wants out. And many would agree its downhill from here for Nashville. Their chance for a big run was this year, and they fell very short.

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07-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #144
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That package should get you Nash...
Sending off Dubi and Anisimov? I shudder to think we have Boyle as our 3rd line center again this year.

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07-06-2012, 11:46 AM
  #145
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I'm sorry, those aren't the only two scenarios. This is why I think you guys are in a dream world... all these ideal factors and contingencies.

No one can force Weber to sign. He can tell Nashville he's testing UFA or not signing there. No one can force Weber to sign before a trade is finalized. He's in control. Hossa was traded to Pitt and walked UFA 4 months later. It's not unheard of.

What if Weber flat out refuses to sign any type of extension prior to next summer? That's covered in neither of your two scenarios. It's possible. The only thing forcing his hand is the new CBA: 1) the restrictive rules will hamper his earning ability and 2) they may raise the age of UFA. #2 is why I think Nashville will hold onto him this season, he may not be walking UFA next summer anyway.
I did address that, read my posts. You answered your own question about the CBA ruling being a factor. Weber wants to sign before the new CBA, so he can get a better contract. He doesn't want to wait a year, when he could get a better contract now.

Polie isn't going to trade Weber away for a rental package. Both Weber and Polie will work together to make a deal work for both sides.

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07-06-2012, 11:46 AM
  #146
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I have to think the odds of us trading for Weber are less than what they were for us to sign Parise. And that was quite low.

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07-06-2012, 11:47 AM
  #147
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Sending off Dubi and Anisimov? I shudder to think we have Boyle as our 3rd line center again this year.
Yea depth is alot better elw Boyle 4th line and Pk. Plus late in games he can be bumped up. Is dubi good on draws? Arty isnt

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07-06-2012, 11:48 AM
  #148
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But you're also under the assumption that he will get more power play time and such.

You don't know what moves will be made. You also have to take into consideration on how he's viewed within the organization. Do they think he has that offensive potential, if so then he'll get more time. Maybe he only gets some second unit time.

The difference with him and Doughty, Weber, Karlsson, Pietrangelo is that they already get major power play time. We don't know if/when McDonagh will ever get a chance to run the first unit. Not as long as MDZ is here I'd assume. It's an unfair advantage to the Webers and Zkatlsson who get to basically play the full power play then compared to someone seeing minimal second unit time.
Well I'm actually just playing Devils Advocate towards you. I agree that he could be a constant rock wall defenseman who notches 30-35 points a year, and I also think he could become a constant 45-50 point Norris candidate. It all really depends on as you said, if the organization believes he could be a PP threat.

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07-06-2012, 11:48 AM
  #149
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I have to think the odds of us trading for Weber are less than what they were for us to sign Parise. And that was quite low.
Probably very true. Weber gets put on the trading block, its going to be a feeding frenzy. Personally, I don't think the Rangers would even be the favorites.

But ya never know, I didn't think Minn was going to sign both Parise/Suter. Tis unpredictable.

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07-06-2012, 11:49 AM
  #150
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J. Staal is a very bad reference point. He was going to NYR or Carolina next summer. That's why Carolina didn't wait for free agency, they very likely could have lost out to us. We were trying to trade for him for the same reasons. It only takes two bidders to force an action.

At the same time, with the other 27 teams knowing the J. Staal was going to join a brother in 2013, Pitt wasn't getting great offers.

There will be 30 bidders (Nashville to retain his services) for Weber, with 30 possible destinations. A J. Staal type deal is not going to cut it. It will be a Pronger type return.

I get the value of Weber, I just don't like the costs considering our needs.
-Address defenseman minutes
-Add scoring
-Get a faceoff pro/cup experienced bottom 6 center.

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